Leica's new MF system Options

[eronald]

Why should a 20.000 US$ camera need support in the first place?

Cheers,
Bernard

The M8 had teething issues necessitating 3 weeks minimum return to factory.

Edmund

[hankg]

Why should a 20.000 US$ camera need support in the first place?

Cheers,
Bernard

Same reason $40,000 MF backs need support and lighting systems and camera platforms that are widely available in rental houses tend to be favored. Anything can break down at any time and you can't own everything you might need. If your equipment craps out can your rep get you a replacement same or worst case next day or are you out of business? If you need a $7,000 lens once or twice a year can you rent it or do you have to pay to have it sitting on a shelf most of the time?

[BJL]

i am pretty sure that you cant use 35mm lenses for shorter distance between lens and mirror, whih has to be larger ona larger sensor.

The Leica R mount has a registration distance of about 46mm, which is more than the minimum needed for 24x36mm format (the Canon EF mount is about 42mm). So it might be possible to use the same registration distance despite the extra 6mm of mirror height (30mm vs 24mm). Especially with a fancy mirror mechanism, like that of the Sony A900: the extra mirror depth is only about 4mm when the mirror is angled for use.

In fact, I speculate that the reason for Leica using 30x45mm rather than the 33x44mm of other Kodak sensors is for backward compatibility with the Leica R lens mount. If so, we might at last get a test of the idea that telephoto lenses often have "oversized" image circles, big enough for use with somewhat larger formats: Leica R telephotos might work on S bodies with no need for cropping.


And I agree with a post above: one very intriguing fact here is Leica producing NINE new lenses all at once, way ahead of the pace of Rollei and Hy6 with AF lenses.

[rogan]

To me, I am thrilled by the Leica only because it will prompt Canon and Nikon to follow.

I knew it was doomed when they brought out Wim Winders to introduce it. Show me someone who earns their living with it and I am impressed.

3 huge problems

1 USB on a 35mp camera. Obviously tethering isn't an option(Doctors and Lawyers won't mind though) 80% of the pro market uses mac and usb is not an option. Why not fw800 and will be fw 3200 by the time it's released?
2 Multi point af. Here was their chance to separate themselves from the pack and they came up short.
3 Slow lenses. The last pro mf camera to launch with this slow of a normal lens was the RZ in 1763! Mamiya has a 1.9, contax and hassy have f2 and 2.8(hassy V and H also have f2 lenses), leafnar has a f2 as well with it's main lenses being 2.8 and these leica lenses don't even have shutters in them.

Great idea but was a single pro consulted in it's specs?

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

I think that Leica competes not with Canon but with Hasselblad and Mamya/Phase One on this one.

Canon is weak on wide angle optics. Leica has obviously problems with pricing, but they are in many senses in the same market as Hasselblad, another small european company.

Don't forget that the price of the Leica includes a digital back!

Best regards
Erik

and what if canon makes it in a leica S mount?  that would keep the S bodies on the shelf..

I feel that leica has got to keep the price within the desired market.. even if it is a loss leader..this is their couturé line..in the fashion bus. designers know they never hit a profit margin on it.. it is the second lines that they make the bucks on. Leica will never be able to compete dollar for dollar with canon, nor can canon compete overall quality-wise with leica.

Leica is going for the niche high-end pro-market..maybe the top 10%.. but only the top 1%, if that, make the money to go out and buy into a new system just like that.. and this 1% are for the most part are not stupid in the business dept. and buy equipment that works for them on all levels, not because it is the latest, most fab, got-to-have fashion statement..it is a tool of the trade and how it performs or doesn't is critical to our success in the market.

The camera could work for me.. but it has to work financially..and that is the big unknown at the moment.. if I was shooting national ads everyday of the week, every week, then I would just say sign me up, I don't care if it is 15, 20 or 30g..but this isn't the 90's is it?
If it is the best camera in the market it should and will be the most expensive..but by how much..that will determine if this new bit of kit is just eye candy or is something more than a handful of us can work with.

I hope the latter.. cause it would would look great with my Helmet Lang black leather jacket!

[Snook]

Don't forget that the price of the Leica includes a digital back!

Best regards
Erik

[/quote]


Your are very right.. a lot of people have over looked that and it is almost 40 megaPixel one at that.

I guess the difference is that is it permanetly inside the camera..

If I have the extra cash flow, I would by one. Would have to down grade my porsche.

Let's see how it all pans out in the next 2-3 years. Maybe the Nikon MF wil come out before hand and force them to lower the price..:+}
Snook

[James R Russell]

Same reason $40,000 MF backs need support and lighting systems and camera platforms that are widely available in rental houses tend to be favored. Anything can break down at any time and you can't own everything you might need. If your equipment craps out can your rep get you a replacement same or worst case next day or are you out of business? If you need a $7,000 lens once or twice a year can you rent it or do you have to pay to have it sitting on a shelf most of the time?

I guess this camera falls into the medium format range, which puts a smile on my face since it doesn't look like medium format it looks like a 35mm dslr, though I'll admit a very pretty dslr.

Still, it fits all the criteria of medium format in that it's expensive, is sold mainly through specialized dealers, the lenses are on the slow side and the price is probably going to be double of anything that comes out of Japan.

Oh yea, it's ccd and since I've owned 10 professional ccd cameras and not seen one go past 400 iso clean I have to assume this will be the same as the others. Maybe fotz is right and Theirry's 800 iso images for the Sinar 75 are clean at 800, I'll believe it when I use it and since I've never seen a Sinar with the batteries charged I guess that test will have to wait.

The thing I find most interesting is the way these cameras are introduced and marketed in relationship to how the Japanese introduce and market their cameras.

None of us know when, what, where, how much the Leica will costs, how well it tethers, if the lcd works when tethering, if it has live view, if all the lenses will be available at once, or if this will be like other Photokina medium format announcements that take 2 years before they are finally on a dealers shelf.

In comparison the 5D2 and the new Sony are already in photographers hands with samples bouncing all over the web.

I am fascinated by how slow the lenses of medium format have become. Everything seems to be in the 2.8 to f4 range which is a buzz kill considering that Leica, Mamiya, Rollei had a lot of fast lenses in the past.

Did someone from Profoto and Broncolor tell the world of medium format that everyone shoots studio strobe, so forget about continuous light and short depth of field.

I guess techtalk was right when he/she said "-but tomorrow's announcements will be of the evolutionary advancement type."

JR

P.S. Now the first annoucement I would like to see from photokina is that Thomas Knoll will meet 5 photographers in Milan, that will shoot every digital camera out there next to their film counterparts and hand off a digital file and a about 20 different films, in 20 different scenes/subjects and ask him to please make presets to make all of these files look like any of these films. Just like the fcp and aftereffects plug ins that have Michael Bay Yellow, we could have Paulo Roversi polaroid, Ansel Adams zoned black and white, Terry Richardson saturated, etc. etc.

Now the second announcement I would like to see is profoto brings back their hmi lighting. Those things are the bomb and allow you to shoot continuous and flash with the same style modifiers.

Of course to use the hmi's you need higher iso.

I agree with Rogan. Let's don't put rich cats in suits telling us they "talked" to professional photographers so they could make the best camera in the world". Put these things in the hands of people that shoot for a living and let them knock the paint off of em. Then they'll know what is really needed.

That is something that Nikon and Canon are very good at. They put their early pre production cameras out there in working situations, way before they ever go on sale.

This post has been edited by James R Russell: Sep 23 2008, 11:13 AM

[woof75]

I guess this camera falls into the medium format range, which puts a smile on my face since it doesn't look like medium format it looks like a 35mm dslr, though I'll admit a very pretty dslr.

Still, it fits all the criteria of medium format in that it's expensive, is sold mainly through specialized dealers, the lenses are on the slow side and the price is probably going to be double of anything that comes out of Japan.

Oh yea, it's ccd and since I've owned 10 professional ccd cameras and not seen one go past 400 iso clean I have to assume this will be the same as the others.  Maybe fotz is right and Theirry's 800 iso images for the Sinar 75 are clean at 800, I'll believe it when I use it and since I've never seen a Sinar with the batteries charged I guess that test will have to wait.

The thing I find most interesting is the way these cameras are introduced and marketed in relationship to how the Japanese introduce and market their cameras.

None of us know when, what, where, how much the Leica will costs, how well it tethers, if the lcd works when tethering, if it has live view, if all the lenses will be available at once, or if this will be like other Photokina medium format announcements that take 2 years before they are finally on a dealers shelf.

In comparison the 5D2 and the new Sony are already in photographers hands with samples bouncing all over the web. 

I am fascinated by how slow the lenses of medium format have become.  Everything seems to be in the 2.8 to f4 range which is a buzz kill considering that Leica, Mamiya, Rollei had a lot of fast lenses in the past. 

Did someone from Profoto and Broncolor tell the world of medium format that everyone shoots studio strobe, so forget about continuous light and short depth of field. 

I guess techtalk was right when he/she said "-but tomorrow's announcements will be of the evolutionary advancement type."

JR

P.S.  Now the first annoucement I would like to see from photokina is that Thomas Knoll will meet 5 photographers in Milan, that will shoot every digital camera out there next to their film counterparts and hand off a digital file and a about 20 different films, in 20 different scenes/subjects and ask him to please make presets to make all of these files look like any of these films.  Just like the fcp and aftereffects plug ins that have Michael Bay Yellow, we could have Paulo Roversi polaroid, Ansel Adams zoned black and white, Terry Richardson saturated,  etc. etc.

Now the second announcement I would like to see is profoto brings back their hmi lighting.  Those things are the bomb and allow you to shoot continuous and flash with the same style modifiers.

Of course to use the hmi's you need higher iso.

I agree with Rogan.  Let's don't put rich cats in suits telling us they "talked" to professional photographers so they could make the best camera in the world".  Put these things in the hands of people that shoot for a living and let them knock the paint off of em.  Then they'll know what is really needed.

That is something that Nikon and Canon are very good at.  They put their early pre production cameras out there in working situations, way before they ever go on sale.

Canon could have fooled me with regard to giving them to working pros. I don't know about the 1ds mark 3 but the mark 2 was a total dog to shoot tethered, the software was horrible and the stupid thing had to go back to the factory every 4 months to get the firewire port replaced.

[clawery]

Take a look at Capture Integration's front page. We will be updating our site as the information flows in from Photokina.

http://www.captureintegration.com/

Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
chris@captureintegration.com
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer of the Year

877-217-9870 | National Atlanta / Miami
404-234-5195 | Cell
Sign up for our Newsletter | Read Our Latest Newsletter

[gwhitf]

3 Slow lenses. The last pro mf camera to launch with this slow of a normal lens was the RZ in 1763! Mamiya has a 1.9, contax and hassy have f2 and 2.8(hassy V and H also have f2 lenses), leafnar has a f2 as well with it's main lenses being 2.8 and these leica lenses don't even have shutters in them.

I'm betting that the Leica mentality was about MTF Charts, and Sharpness -- not about actually having to shoot a job as the sun is setting, but the client is yelling for one more setup before you stop for the day.

It must be much easier to make a jawdroppingly sharp lens if the fstop is slower -- thus, we get the slower lenses.

[foto-z]

Slow lenses. The last pro mf camera to launch with this slow of a normal lens was the RZ in 1763! Mamiya has a 1.9, contax and hassy have f2 and 2.8(hassy V and H also have f2 lenses), leafnar has a f2 as well with it's main lenses being 2.8 and these leica lenses don't even have shutters in them.

These lenses DO have leaf shutters, the ones with CS in the name anyway. So you can't really compare with Mamiya.

From previous page:

* Summarit-S 70mm f/2.5 CS ASPH
* Summarit-S 35mm f/2.5 CS ASPH
* APO-Macro-Summarit-S 120mm f/2.5 CS
* APO-Elmar-S 180mm f/3.5 CS
* Elmarit-S 24mm f/2.8 ASPH
* APO-Tele-Elmar-S 350mm f/3.5
* Vario-Elmar-S 30-90mm f/3.5 ASPH
* Elmar-S 30mm f/3.5 Tilt-Shift
* Elmarit-S 100mm f/3.5 ASPH

[foto-z]

It must be much easier to make a jawdroppingly sharp lens if the fstop is slower -- thus, we get the slower lenses.

They better be fantastic wide open.

[SeanBK]

Hi,

I think that Leica competes not with Canon but with Hasselblad and Mamya/Phase One on this one. ........ Don't forget that the price of the Leica includes a digital back!

Best regards
Erik

Will this make a CLOSED SYSTEM??? But I guess since it is Phase One back, so all those PHASE PHANS/clients who bitched moaned endlessly for Hasselblad H3 system, don't recognize the trend.

[free1000]

Take a look at Capture Integration's front page.  We will be updating our site as the information flows in from Photokina.

http://www.captureintegration.com/

Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
chris@captureintegration.com
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer of the Year

877-217-9870 | National  Atlanta / Miami
404-234-5195 | Cell 
Sign up for our Newsletter | Read Our Latest Newsletter

Chris... what is that fuzzed out lens on the Phase 1 Mamiya.... ?



The new packaging for the 45mm T/S is very smart. Hopefully it will make the aperture selection a bit easier than with the old one. Now if the glass is as cleaned up as the casing that would be something... I reserve my judgement

This post has been edited by free1000: Sep 23 2008, 12:37 PM

[John-S]

Will this make a CLOSED SYSTEM??? But I guess since it is Phase One back, so all those PHASE PHANS/clients who bitched moaned endlessly for Hasselblad H3 system, don't recognize the trend.

No different than Canon/Nikon being "closed".

I think we have been through all this many times. Many shooters want this: If you make a digital back that disconnects from the camera, then just make it fit many other mounts, cameras if not all options. Oh and vice versa, make a camera that permits many other branded backs to fit it.

This post has been edited by John Schweikert: Sep 23 2008, 12:43 PM

[John-S]

Chris... what is that fuzzed out lens on the Phase 1 Mamiya.... ?



The new packaging for the 45mm T/S is very smart. Hopefully it will make the aperture selection a bit easier than with the old one. Now if the glass is as cleaned up as the casing that would be something... I reserve my judgement

Looks like the 75-150 D lens.

[BJL]

Oh yea, it's ccd and since I've owned 10 professional ccd cameras and not seen one go past 400 iso clean I have to assume this will be the same as the others.

Leica has talked about better high ISO performance than other MF backs, so this Kodak FF CCD sensor might well have micro-lenses (like the Kodak 33x44mm, unlike most other MF sensors). Those are good for about one stop of speed, so if the new 6 micron Kodak pixels are good to about ISO 800 w/o micro-lenses, this one might be good to ISO 1600. [Edit: of course your standard of "clean" is probably far more demanding than mine!]

That would still be no threat to Canon or Nikon in the high shutter speed/low light stakes, but good relative to its natural competition: bodies and lenses designed for 56x42m or 49x37mm format but used with 44x33mm sensors.

Also, I believe that a major noise source in FF CCD's is in the high speed transfer of the unamplified signal along the edge of the sensor. Active pixel sensors (CMOS or MOS) more or less eliminate this as a significant noise source by amplifying the signal before this transfer. One way that FF CCD's can reduce noise significantly is by lowering the frequency needed in this transfer, by some combination of (1) having more parallel output channels and (2) lower frame rates. The latest Kodak 50MP sensor for Hasselblad lowers noise by having more parallel output channels; with "only" 37.5MP to read-out, maybe the Leica S2 can do even better, by reading at a 25% lower frequency for the same frame rate.

This post has been edited by BJL: Sep 23 2008, 12:54 PM

[eronald]

I am fascinated by how slow the lenses of medium format have become.  Everything seems to be in the 2.8 to f4 range which is a buzz kill considering that Leica, Mamiya, Rollei had a lot of fast lenses in the past. 

Did someone from Profoto and Broncolor tell the world of medium format that everyone shoots studio strobe, so forget about continuous light and short depth of field. 


JR

Now the second announcement I would like to see is profoto brings back their hmi lighting.  Those things are the bomb and allow you to shoot continuous and flash with the same style modifiers.

Of course to use the hmi's you need higher iso.

Haha.

I used to shoot my Canon 85/1.2 with just the modeling light of my Elinchrom Octabank.

The reason why the MF guys have these slow lenses is the same as why the kit zooms n the consumer bodies are slow: It masks AF failures , and especially the bad body/back fits.


Edmund

[bcooter]

I believe this was shot with the russian tilt shift.

Chris... what is that fuzzed out lens on the Phase 1 Mamiya.... ?

[EricWHiss]

Leica has talked about better high ISO performance than other MF backs, so this Kodak FF CCD sensor might well have micro-lenses (like the Kodak 33x44mm, unlike most other MF sensors).

Good ISO performance is something I'd like to have in my next camera or back. Was looking but I hadn't seen anything where Leica talks about better ISO performance so would like to know where you saw that.

I can confirm that the sensor used has microlenses. It is the KAF-37500 which shares the their Truesense technology with the H50 sensor. The H50 basic ISO rating goes 50-400 (with somekind of software bumped iso 800) so probably the S2 with microlenses is going to get a usable iso 800 and a dirty 1600?