Leica's new MF system Options

[Nemo]

You know, Leica's owner, Dr. Kaufmann, pointed to a new digital reflex system using a 35mm "or bigger" sensor.

I am thinking on a sensor with a size in between the 35mm format and the 645 format, maybe a bit smaller than 36x48mm. The Hasselblad and Mamiya systems are 645 systems, even if they use cropped sensors. The advantage of a smaller MF system is obvious: smaller bodies and lenses, and lenses with higher speed (think on f/2 or even more). The price can be placed also in between.

The presentation will be at the Photokina, but I suppose at this moment many distributors know the basic specifications (and price) of the new system.

What do you think about this (hypothetic for now) new system? Would you be interested in it?

This post has been edited by Nemo: Aug 6 2008, 03:29 PM

[Anthony R]

Probably not as Leica has put out nothing but sub-par cameras of late.

[Mort54]

What do you think about this (hypothetic for now) new system? Would you be interested in it?

I think Leica has promised much and delivered little. But I guess we'll see soon enough.

[BJL]

You know, Leica's owner, Dr. Kaufmann, pointed to a new digital reflex system using a 35mm "or bigger" sensor.

I do not know that. I have read Kaufmann talking of a sensor bigger than those of the R digital back or M8, which are about 18x27mm. Can you point to anywhere that Kaufmann talks about bigger than 35mm format, and thus losing backward compatibility with many or all exiting Leica R lenses?

[Nemo]

Well, Kaufmann pointed to bigger than 35mm format in a meeting:

http://www.freelists.org/archives/leicaref...7/msg00101.html

http://www.freelists.org/archives/leicaref...7/msg00146.html

Kaufmann is careful in not mentioing the R system anymore... he speaks of "reflex":

http://www.popphoto.com/popularphotography...e-of-leica.html

.

[michael]

A Leica MF system is almost definitely on the horizon, but specifics will have to wait for an official announcement.

Apparently there are still many details to be resolved, so don't believe much of what you read, other than the fact that something is cooking.

Michael

[Nemo]

I hope it will not be "too late, too little"...

All players are moving fast...

[EricWHiss]

I'm hoping that whatever it is they announce, it will take my R glass. Maybe there will be a R10 and a MF camera or is that too much to ask?

[klane]

I hope it will not be "too late, too little"...

All players are moving fast...

Define "fast"

[woof75]

super exciting, are you breaking your own rule on speculation there Michael? Hard to resist this one though isn't it.

[BJNY]

Kaufmann is careful in not mentioing the R system anymore... he speaks of "reflex":

http://www.popphoto.com/popularphotography...e-of-leica.html

Kaufmann mentions an R&D staff of 90, very surprising, maybe that figure includes Jenoptik collaboration?
Also makes me wonder how many employees at F&H and Sinar by comparison.

Fanning the flames: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/...html#post555744

Edit: Added Leica User Forum link

This post has been edited by BJNY: Aug 6 2008, 06:11 PM

[uaiomex]

Speculating? I don't think so.
Michael must know somthing we still don't know. As usual.

Eduardo

super exciting, are you breaking your own rule on speculation there Michael? Hard to resist this one though isn't it.

[canlogic]

Probably not as Leica has put out nothing but sub-par cameras of late.

I don't know of any sub-par cameras they have put out lately? At least any more so than any other manufacturer. I have an M8 which has been a superb camera for almost 2 years. It did have to go back to the factory for a recall but the compensation I was given made it worth while. I also have a dlux3 which for a pocket camera is great. I haven't heard that Canon is going to do anything for me for either my 1DMKIII or 1DSMKIII for the supposed focus problems. Have you got a Leica to base this on or are you one of the many who just "knows" there are problems.

[Nemo]

Leica has no other choice than this new MF system.

Current 35mm reflex systems are very versatile. You must to offer many lenses, from extreme wide-angles to superteles, macro, tilt and shift lenses, portrait lenses, zooms... etc... The costs of manufacture and distribution of such a system are very high. You need a large stock of all your lenses and accesories all over the world, in the hands of many retailers. On the other hand, Leica cannot compete against Canon, Nikon, Sony, etc in terms of image quality on the same format. They cannot. The digital photography is determined by the lens, but also by the sensor, the processor, the software... Leica cannot be competitive in terms of price either, due to economies of scale. So, how can they survive in the 35mm market in the long term? It is impossible.

They need new customers, and a different product. A few lenses for specific (professional) tasks (landscape and studio work), a small camera (much smaller than 645 and 6x6 based systems) with great image quality (better than 35mm at low ISOs). This product will be competitive against 35mm (for particular types of work, due to image quality), and competitive against 645 format (much smaller body and lenses, less expensive).

I don't know if this strategy will be a success, but it is the only product concept with some possibility of success in the long term for Leica.

I don't know about the compatibility of actual R lenses, but the mount-to-sensor distance of medium format cameras is much larger than that of 35mm cameras. The R system is 47mm, and medium format is around double of that number. If Leica does without the mirror box (like the micro 4/3 system), they could keep the register of the R system untouched.

All MF systems are based on 645 (Hasselblad, Mamiya) or even 6x6 format (Rollei/Sinar). Hassel will go full 645 next year. Meanwhile, they have 36x48mm. The same goes for Mamiya/Phase One, but they hit first: full 645 sensors, for 645 lenses. This equipment is really big.

The Mamiya ZD was a good try, but it is a 645 camera with a cropped sensor (even then, it was similar in body size to a 1Ds Canon). The new Leica will be even smaller. A good example (and unique) of "optimized for smaller than 645" is the Hasselblad HCD 28mm. From this only case it is difficult to get an idea of what can be done for something like 36x48, or a bit smaller format.

The cost of the new Leica MF system cannot be the same of Hasselblad or Mamiya's, or Leica will have problems.

This post has been edited by Nemo: Aug 6 2008, 07:00 PM

[bcooter]

What do you think about this (hypothetic for now) new system? Would you be interested in it?

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=26607

[Nemo]

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=26607

Thank you bcooter. Very interesting.

I read "full frame 645", but it is a wish of current owners of 645 equipment... I suppose...

[bcooter]

Thank you bcooter. Very interesting.

I read "full frame 645", but it is a wish of current owners of 645 equipment... I suppose...

you are welcome Nemo

[T-1000]

We're already suffering from the ridiculous prices of REAL MF digital equipment.

Think of what a larger-than 35mm sensor Leica system would cost. The price would be inflated just because of the freaking LEICA name alone. Reminds me of another brand... cough, Sinar, cough. (To Thierry, it's just a joke. )

Would it really be worth it over a used Leaf Aptus 75, Sinar Emotion, or P45, especially with prices dropping on these "older" backs, because of the new products coming out?

Think of how cheap a Mamiya and some used lenses cost compared to Leica R glass. Ugh. Yes, I do have some Leica glass that I use on Canon, and I don't think they're that special to be honest. Been there, done that, so don't try to convince me that Leica is the holy grail.

The most important thing would be the sensor. What's so special about it? Who makes it? AA filter? No AA filter? We'll have to find out.

[Anthony R]

I want to get what I pay for. The quality is not 'up to par' for the price paid and hasn't been for several years now.

Leica people are so touchy.

I do not own a digital Leica.

I don't know of any sub-par cameras they have put out lately? At least any more so than any other manufacturer. I have an M8 which has been a superb camera for almost 2 years. It did have to go back to the factory for a recall but the compensation I was given made it worth while. I also have a dlux3 which for a pocket camera is great. I haven't heard that Canon is going to do anything for me for either my 1DMKIII or 1DSMKIII for the supposed focus problems. Have you got a Leica to base this on or are you one of the many who just "knows" there are problems.

[James R Russell]

I want to get what I pay for. The quality is not 'up to par' for the price paid and hasn't been for several years now.

Leica people are so touchy.

I do not own a digital Leica.

The Leica is good man. It aint' a 1ds3, or a p anything, but it's good and worth the money.

It's the only 35 without a aa filter.

http://www.russellrutherford.com/final_leica.jpg

http://www.russellrutherford.com/1T/image/paris2bhv3449.jpg

JR