Leica's new MF system Options

[Nick-T]

Take a Hasselblad and you have about the same price.

Really? I think you should ring your Hasselblad dealer and ask about the latest prices..

Nick-T

[James R Russell]

Really? I think you should ring your Hasselblad dealer and ask about the latest prices..

Nick-T

Nick,

Presenting these new cameras, or actually updates of previous cameras, (except the Leica) is like a political campaign. I think each makers would be better off selling what is good about their own system, but it's impossible not to compare on to the other, even the dslrs.

Phase, historically they make a stable product and they do have the only full frame sensor, though at $45,000 it seems very, very expensive. As far as cameras, until the lenses are out and the new right angle grip the Mamiya 3 seems limited but it also seems to be getting better. The lcd . . . we've all talked the Phase lcd to death and unless they announce something soon, I guess that's just the way it's gong to stay.

With Leaf and Sinar both I like the idea of the Hy6 or Rollei, but the downside is the lens prices, though even Mamiya seems to have high prices on their new lenses so maybe that's just the norm.

Sinar did seem to listen about in camera processing and a better lcd and if they actually can produce a marketing effort and get product on the shelves and in rental it will be much more attractive.

Leaf finally got around to having their back display an image when tethering but it's a shame that it can't be retroactive to their other aptus backs. I think that's a big mistake.

Hasselblad. They have the most seasoned platform and a full range of lenses ready to buy, no waiting. The file format thing makes no sense to me and software that takes a computer upgrade or a new video card also seems like a slight hurdle, but at least the blad is ready to buy and the prices seem pretty good. It's a shame it's not black and it looks like an American Motors Pacer.

I do find it interesting that of all the new medium format annoucements, Sinar, Leaf, Phase, Hasselblad and Leica the prices for most are high, for some much higher, the iso stays the same, which means the real world use stays the same, but when you look at the dslr annoucements from Canon and Sony, they have actually gone much lower in price, higher in iso and both offer 20 something megapixels for $3,000.

JR

[Terence h]

Leica S2 digital SLR 30x45mm sensor 37.5 mega pixel in a 35mm style body announced this morning now we are talking.

Terence

[rethmeier]

I have a question?

What if this rumored Nikon MX is similar to the Leica S2?

It wouldn't be that hard for Canon to do a similar camera as well.

Still Leica has that kudos that is legendary.

Cheers,
Willem.

[James R Russell]

I have a question?

What if this rumored Nikon MX is similar to the Leica S2?

It wouldn't be that hard for Canon to do a similar camera as well.

Still Leica has that kudos that is legendary.

Cheers,
Willem.

I'm just guessing . . . actually asking, but given that the 5d2 is the same sensor size as the 1ds3, (for 1/2 the price) and given that sony even has a larger pixeled sensor (also at 1/2 the price) doesn't it stand to reason that very soon their will be a new Canon that has 30 mpx?

I don't know how big the the physical size of the Canon's can go, but their lens mount looks almost as big as medium format.

What would a $7,000 30 something megapixel Canon do to the medium format world, especially if it was larger than 24x36?

JR

This post has been edited by James R Russell: Sep 23 2008, 12:45 AM

[EricWHiss]

Dale Farkas' blog seems to have the most information on the S2 and R10 that I have seen so far. The way the lenses are described they sound incredible (and likely very expensive).


http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/

This post has been edited by EricWHiss: Sep 23 2008, 12:51 AM

[rethmeier]

That lens line-up is very impressive!
Summarit-S 70mm f/2.5 CS ASPH

Summarit-S 35mm f/2.5 CS ASPH

APO-Macro-Summarit-S 120mm f/2.5 CS

APO-Elmar-S 180mm f/3.5 CS

These four lenses will be the first to launch, simultaneously with the camera. The next grouping of lenses will come a few months later.

Elmarit-S 24mm f/2.8 ASPH

APO-Tele-Elmar-S 350mm f/3.5

Vario-Elmar-S 30-90mm f/3.5 ASPH

Elmar-S 30mm f/3.5 Tilt-Shift

Elmarit-S 100mm f/3.5 ASPH

The performance of these new lenses is being heralded as reference class optics with no measurable distortion or vignetting anywhere in the frame, and no software correction needed to optimize the performance. This last part is a certain jab at Hasselblad. MTF charts of these lenses are supposedly totally flat with no drop. Obviously Leica is doing what they do best – making the best optics in the world.


I would love to see the price list!

Cheers,
Willem.

[pss]

I'm just guessing . . . actually asking, but given that the 5d2 is the same sensor size as the 1ds3, (for 1/2 the price) and given that sony even has a larger pixeled sensor (also at 1/2 the price)  doesn't it stand to reason that very soon their will be a new Canon that has 30 mpx?

I don't know how big the the physical size of the Canon's can go, but their lens mount looks almost as big as medium format.

What would a $7,000 30 something megapixel Canon do to the medium format world, especially if it was larger than 24x36?

JR

actually the 5DmkII is more like 1/3 of the price with the next gen. sensor....
the dsmkIII is a kind of a hard sale right now and will have to come down in price by the end of the year (when the 5dII ships).....
who says the 1dsIV isn't in the works and goes in the same direction? the 5D/1dsII placement made more sense...they were able to co-exist...the 5dII comes right up to the dsIII and gives a little extra, so canon HAS to come out with something.....and they knew all this, so it will be interesting to see what it will be.....and somehow i don't see a 1dsIV with a 30mpix 24x36 sensor....a larger sensor makes much more sense...

the leica looks amazing, the phase cooperation makes it "real", the lenses will be amazing....

but afaik i will have to wait ONE YEAR for it, even if i want it.....that is a LOOOONG time for canon and nikon, neither of which have announced a new flagship yet.....

[James R Russell]

actually the 5DmkII is more like 1/3 of the price with the next gen. sensor....
the dsmkIII is a kind of a hard sale right now and will have to come down in price by the end of the year (when the 5dII ships).....
who says the 1dsIV isn't in the works and goes in the same direction? the 5D/1dsII placement made more sense...they were able to co-exist...the 5dII comes right up to the dsIII and gives a little extra, so canon HAS to come out with something.....and they knew all this, so it will be interesting to see what it will be.....and somehow i don't see a 1dsIV with a 30mpix 24x36 sensor....a larger sensor makes much more sense...

the leica looks amazing, the phase cooperation makes it "real", the lenses will be amazing....

but afaik i will have to wait ONE YEAR for it, even if i want it.....that is a LOOOONG time for canon and nikon, neither of which have announced a new flagship yet.....

My point is it's not like Canon to just totally obsolete their flagship camera overnight, especially one that has been on the market such a short time.

Something made them do it, maybe Sony, maybe Nikon, though I doubt if the Leica or any medium format announcements really got thier attention.

The thing is obviously in the world of cmos and dslrs the sensor is not the defining costs factor, like it is for medium format, because if it was, then the 5d2 would be selling at a loss.

Looking at the $3,000 price of the 5d2, it does make you wonder what type of camera they could produce for $7,000.

Maybe a 36x36 square sensor that goes to multiple formats, from 4:5 to 16:9, including video.

It also makes you wonder if the next flagship camera from Canon will even be produced, given that Sony seems content to offer 24mpx for $3,000. Maybe the 5d2 is the top of the line Canon for the forseable future.

To me, the real 600 lb. gorilla is Sony. With their experience in high end video, their ability to produce their own sensors and the fact that they really are working from a clean sheet of paper with no real user installed base, they could probably offer just about anything in any configuration.

It also makes me think how well the Leica would sell if it was a $10,000 camera vs. a $24,000 camera, but I guess given the fact that it will be sold through normal medium format channels, the prices will not go lower.

I am surprised that the Leica lenses are so slow, nothing in the f2 range, and most 3.5's.

Given that it's a ccd, which means lower iso than cmos, 3.5's are very slow for a lot of work you would expect to do with a camera of those physical dimensions.

Still all of this is conjecture and means very little until all of these cameras get into real world use.

JR

[Terence h]

$24000 is that the price of the new Leica S2 ?and those lenses are going to cost an absolute fortune, now we are not even close to talking.
In fact if i am realistic my Nikon d80 has earned me more money than my Leaf Aptus (hey that is probably my fault ) i am much more likely to be lining up for a higher res Nikon or canon 5d mk2.

Terence

[Terence h]

Sorry did not mean to include my web page link ,do not even bother looking at it i have not updated it in about 5 months.

Terence

[cyberean]

That lens line-up is very impressive!
Summarit-S 70mm f/2.5 CS ASPH

Summarit-S 35mm f/2.5 CS ASPH

APO-Macro-Summarit-S 120mm f/2.5 CS

APO-Elmar-S 180mm f/3.5 CS

These four lenses will be the first to launch, simultaneously with the camera. The next grouping of lenses will come a few months later.

Elmarit-S 24mm f/2.8 ASPH

APO-Tele-Elmar-S 350mm f/3.5

Vario-Elmar-S 30-90mm f/3.5 ASPH

Elmar-S 30mm f/3.5 Tilt-Shift

Elmarit-S 100mm f/3.5 ASPH

The performance of these new lenses is being heralded as reference class optics with no measurable distortion or vignetting anywhere in the frame, and no software correction needed to optimize the performance. This last part is a certain jab at Hasselblad. MTF charts of these lenses are supposedly totally flat with no drop. Obviously Leica is doing what they do best – making the best optics in the world.

they may very well be "perfect" ...
but that'll probably mean they'll be lacking in personality/character.

... of course some photographic applications require just that.

[Christopher]

they may very well be "perfect" ...
but that'll probably mean they'll be lacking in personality/character.

... of course some photographic applications require just that.

There is character to lenses and there is a piss poor quality like Canon is offering it on most lenses. (NOT ALL)

[cyberean]

There is character to lenses and there is a piss poor quality like Canon is offering it on most lenses. (NOT ALL)

sounds, to me, like an applications mismatch.

[eronald]

The presented S2 design has less area than current digital MF - which is
actually cropped 645 - so why pay all that money, when you don't even
get the MF "look".

This compromise design seems a joke. By 2009 when it ships, I bet
Sinar will be announcing a 6x6 Hy6, and those Schneider lenses are ok
too.

Then, by end 2009 I'd say we'll also have a 28 MP Canon with existing-
F:1.2 and F1.4 lenses, existing Zeiss wides, and full HD *raw* video
like Red.

At the moment I finally have my Phase back producing images that look
ok. Even though find I have to use Photoshop CS4 to develop them - we
all have to make compromises And I finally have my junk Epson 9600
cleaned up and churning out the BIG prints. So I'm gonna produce
images for now, and leave the fantasizing about gear for when the inspiration
runs out.

BTW, I find that Adobe CS4 does a really nice job for pushing clarity and vibrance on landscape images. The new ACR is a definite keeper. I've been using it for several months now. Also, about 10MP out of the 39 from the Phase back upsize really well to a full width Epson 9600 44" print. In the end what I find interesting about the MF format is the degree to which the files can be pushed around and cropped. They're like rubber bands.


Edmund

[mcfoto]

more photos of the S2

http://www.letsgodigital.org/en/20171/leica-s2/

[foto-z]

Now nobody knows what the Leica will be like, but do you really think that since it has a ccd it's going  to have a clean iso above 400?
...
the Leaf and the new sinar look interesting, but they also will probably not go to 800 iso real clean since they are ccd's

You seem to have something against CCDs. In case this hasn't been shown to you before, Thierry already posted an iso 800 sample from the e75 which is very nice indeed. I can't imagine you need cleaner than that. See http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1683 (Haven't I shown this to you before?)

I think I'd rather have a couple of 5d 2's

Btw, did you know the 5D2 has a flash sync of only 1/200?

[foto-z]

There are some pretty wild price estimates flying around in this thread, but Mr Kaufmann was quoted as saying they will try to release the camera for under €15K.

[David Anderson]

There is character to lenses and there is a piss poor quality like Canon is offering it on most lenses. (NOT ALL)

I find that hard to agree with, the 35, 50, 85, 135 and 200 L's are all awesome and with the DsIII produce top quality shots..

[BrianSmith]

Hasselblad.  They have the most seasoned platform and a full range of lenses ready to buy, no waiting.  The file format thing makes no sense to me and software that takes a computer upgrade or a new video card also seems like a slight hurdle, but at least the blad is ready to buy and the prices seem pretty good.  It's a shame it's not black and it looks like an American Motors Pacer.

EXECELLENT!!! A car that looks as good as a Pacer...



Call it the "Mirth Camera"!!!

Party on Wayne!

- Garth Algar