Leica's new MF system Options

[BrianSmith]

I find that hard to agree with, the 35, 50, 85, 135 and 200  L's are all awesome and with the DsIII produce top quality shots..

Other than the the 35/1.4, Canon's wide angle lenses would only seem sharp to...

[foto-z]

I find that hard to agree with, the 35, 50, 85, 135 and 200  L's are all awesome and with the DsIII produce top quality shots..

I'd love to see samples of these wide open, and in the corners. I don't doubt that they all perform stopped down but Leica tends to outperform Canon lenses wide open. I've seen samples from the 85, for example, which were not impressive.

[phila]

My point is it's not like Canon to just totally obsolete their flagship camera overnight, especially one that has been on the market such a short time.

Maybe a 36x36 square sensor that goes to multiple formats, from 4:5 to 16:9, including video.

Still all of this is conjecture and means very little until all of these cameras get into real world use.

JR

All very true.

It all depends on just how willing Canon is to either:

a. Develop an entirely new range of lenses for a larger (36x36? Why not bigger?) sensor - a goodly proportion of the existing EF lenses have rectangular light cutters built in to eliminate flare, meaning they couldn't be used (at full size anyway) on any sensor bigger than 24x36.

b. Develop MkIII versions of existing EF designs to cope with the 50MP 24x36(?) sensors they have been rumoured to be working on.

Canon has proven to be by far the most forward looking of all the manufacturers, as evidenced by your earlier reference to the size of the EF mount. They took an incredible amount of flak back in the late '80s- over 20 years ago! - when they completely broke with the FD mount (something many older Canon aficionados still haven't forgiven them for) and introduced the first completely electronic mount in the EOS/EF. And increased the diameter substantially (for faster lenses, eg. the 50f1.0L, and better AF, were the reasons given back then) at the same time. But no one could argue now that they made the wrong decision!

Interesting times indeed...

[BernardLanguilli...]

There are some pretty wild price estimates flying around in this thread, but Mr Kaufmann was quoted as saying they will try to release the camera for under €15K.

Considering the price of the lenses, this still leaves a huge opportunity wide open for companies like Canon and Nikon that belong to the cheap currency world...

The strong Euro is IMHO going to hit this camera really really bad.

Frankly speaking, who is going to invest in a new Leica system at this price point?

- Retrofit backs with larger sensors like the P45 are cheaper and are a lot more flexible since they can be used. You can also have a like new H3D39II at the same price today on ebay,
- Current DSLR are not that far in absolute performance at 1/8 th the price,
- Nikon is rumoured to enter the very same market and will for sure never sell a body above 10.000 US$. I would expect a Nikon entry to be in a different league in terms of usability, even if lenses might be a tad behind...

Anyway I look at it, Leica must be targetting the wealthy amateur market with the S2, and don't see why a working pro would invest in one.

Cheers,
Bernard

[narikin]

nice to see this camera, but its not that revolutionary. just a dslr on steroids.

would have been much more exciting to see one with no mirror box - a straight through lens>sensor path and a pro quality live view digital VF instead.

that way you can get over the hump between 'standard' and 'wide' lenses without that huge gap between primes (note the 70mm standard, next one down is... 35mm - nothing in the 45/50/55mm prime range.)

Leica don't have the depth of digital tech/engineering know how to jump forward to pro live view finder in slr's, that will come from Japan, and when it does, expect a truly new design of pro camera finally be here.

[paulmoorestudio]

I'm just guessing . . . actually asking, but given that the 5d2 is the same sensor size as the 1ds3, (for 1/2 the price) and given that sony even has a larger pixeled sensor (also at 1/2 the price)  doesn't it stand to reason that very soon their will be a new Canon that has 30 mpx?

I don't know how big the the physical size of the Canon's can go, but their lens mount looks almost as big as medium format.

What would a $7,000 30 something megapixel Canon do to the medium format world, especially if it was larger than 24x36?

JR

and what if canon makes it in a leica S mount? that would keep the S bodies on the shelf..

I feel that leica has got to keep the price within the desired market.. even if it is a loss leader..this is their couturé line..in the fashion bus. designers know they never hit a profit margin on it.. it is the second lines that they make the bucks on. Leica will never be able to compete dollar for dollar with canon, nor can canon compete overall quality-wise with leica.

Leica is going for the niche high-end pro-market..maybe the top 10%.. but only the top 1%, if that, make the money to go out and buy into a new system just like that.. and this 1% are for the most part are not stupid in the business dept. and buy equipment that works for them on all levels, not because it is the latest, most fab, got-to-have fashion statement..it is a tool of the trade and how it performs or doesn't is critical to our success in the market.

The camera could work for me.. but it has to work financially..and that is the big unknown at the moment.. if I was shooting national ads everyday of the week, every week, then I would just say sign me up, I don't care if it is 15, 20 or 30g..but this isn't the 90's is it?
If it is the best camera in the market it should and will be the most expensive..but by how much..that will determine if this new bit of kit is just eye candy or is something more than a handful of us can work with.

I hope the latter.. cause it would would look great with my Helmet Lang black leather jacket!

[markowich]

nice to see this camera, but its not that revolutionary. just a dslr on steroids.

would have been much more exciting to see one with no mirror box - a straight through lens>sensor path and a pro quality live view digital VF instead.

that way you can get over the hump between 'standard' and 'wide' lenses without that huge gap between primes (note the 70mm standard, next one down is... 35mm - nothing in the 45/50/55mm prime range.)

Leica don't have the depth of digital tech/engineering know how to jump forward to pro live view finder in slr's, that will come from Japan, and when it does, expect a truly new design of pro camera finally be here.

i couldn't agree more. what we have seen from leica is an old concept somewhat revamped. kodak sensor+fujitsu electronics+bronica (rumor) lenses+ german panzer (leica) design + phase one software (the best part). no definite specs, zero vision, big price tag (announced before the specs, funny, isn't it?). the real big thing will hopefully come soon, from nikon (or canon, whoever comes first, fine with me).
peter

[BrianSmith]

There are some pretty wild price estimates flying around in this thread, but Mr Kaufmann was quoted as saying they will try to release the camera for under €15K.

Of course the way the dollar is going, by the time Leica gets around to rolling this out, €15K is going to be about $50,000...

I better see if my loan from AIG came through.

[Raphael]

Of course the way the dollar is going, by the time Leica gets around to rolling this out, €15K is going to be about $50,000...

I better see if my loan from AIG came through.

i like the AIG part

[foto-z]

bronica (rumor) lenses+ german panzer (leica) design + phase one software (the best part)

Bronica??

The best part of the system will be the lenses, I hope. We already know what a Phase back can do.

[markowich]

I find that hard to agree with, the 35, 50, 85, 135 and 200  L's are all awesome and with the DsIII produce top quality shots..

innocent question: what do canon users do wide angle wise? use the nikon 14-24mm with adapter or is there a more generic solution? i am asking because i am thinking of getting a 5DmarkII...+canon lenses.
peter

[markowich]

as i said, just a rumor. but apparently leica bought the bronica machinery to do the lenses and did not start the design from scratch.
peter

Bronica??

The best part of the system will be the lenses, I hope. We already know what a Phase back can do.

[hankg]

It's to early to tell how this will turn out it could be a game changer or a big flop depending on performance and price. The Phase One distribution network and the Phase One electronics and software at least gets Leica a hearing. After the M8 launch no one would shell out 10's of thousands on a totally new untested digital system/format from Leica especially without a pro support network.

Phase back and software and Leica Optics and optical viewfinder have a proven track record that at least on paper sounds incredibly attractive. Combining them in a small SLR package with weatherproofing sounds even better. I'm surprised though that Leica did not have at least one really fast lens like 2.0 or 1.8.

So until we see working products and find out street prices it is to early to tell anything. Still kudo's to Dr. Kaufman for taking such a big risk and trying to really bring something new to the market. I've always liked Leica's so I hope it's a smashing success.

This post has been edited by hankg: Sep 23 2008, 08:00 AM

[Christopher]

innocent question: what do canon users do wide angle wise? use the nikon 14-24mm with adapter or is there a  more generic solution? i am asking because i am thinking of getting a 5DmarkII...+canon lenses.
peter

Just some examples:

leica R19mm
Zeiss 21mm
Leica 28 or zeiss 28
leica 35 or zeiss 35
or 35-70 from zeiss or leica

[BernardLanguilli...]

After the M8 launch no one would shell out 10's of thousands on a totally new untested digital system/format from Leica especially without a pro support network.

Why should a 20.000 US$ camera need support in the first place?

Cheers,
Bernard

[markowich]

Just some examples:

leica R19mm
Zeiss 21mm
Leica 28 or zeiss 28
leica 35 or zeiss 35
or 35-70 from zeiss or leica

thanks, but i am so spoiled by the nikon autofokus (even use it for wide angle shooting...i know i know...) and i do not like adapters. which canon wide angles would you recommend?
peter

[foto-z]

So it seems that there will be a mixture of central shutter lenses and shutterless lenses, contrary to some earlier reports.

* Summarit-S 70mm f/2.5 CS ASPH
* Summarit-S 35mm f/2.5 CS ASPH
* APO-Macro-Summarit-S 120mm f/2.5 CS
* APO-Elmar-S 180mm f/3.5 CS
* Elmarit-S 24mm f/2.8 ASPH
* APO-Tele-Elmar-S 350mm f/3.5
* Vario-Elmar-S 30-90mm f/3.5 ASPH
* Elmar-S 30mm f/3.5 Tilt-Shift
* Elmarit-S 100mm f/3.5 ASPH

(CS designates 'central shutter')

[foto-z]

thanks, but i am so spoiled by the nikon autofokus (even use it for wide angle shooting...i know i know...) and i do not like adapters. which canon wide angles would you recommend?
peter

If you don't like adapters you can still use the new Zeiss lenses in EOS mount, such as the 21mm.

[markowich]

If you don't like adapters you can still use the new Zeiss lenses in EOS mount, such as the 21mm.

you are right. but i tried zeiss wide angles on the nikon D3 and i was not convinced. the 24-24 and 24-70 were equal in terms of quality, or at least not far behind. so do i really have to forsake autofokus on canon if i want to get great quality wide angles?
peter

[Snook]

Cheering and booing, all at once.  Leica has broken its stodgy mould and become the first camera company to smash out of the antiquated 35/MF paradigm. "Formats" are a thing of the past ( and have been for a while -- just nobody's had the balls to say so).  The future is about systems, and the vision and ergonomics that accompany them. 

Leica has hit the sweet-spot, imho, on the camera-size / file size chart.  This camera could be a world beater, especially coupling Leica optics to a large sensor.

......but.......

Price??? I can own a second-hand 39MP MF system, with lenses, for about what the *body* is rumoured to be costing here?!?!?! F'getabouit.

And the lenses. Um, er, where are the zooms? TS lenses are nice, but who gives fuck. Really. Seriously. It's called a "view" camera.  Goes on a tripod with a (now) dirt cheap MF back covering 4x5 in multiple frames.  Costs so much less you can buy an investment bank with the change from the prices people are throwing around here.

For the other 99.5% of shooters who couldn't give rat's ass about T/S, where are the zooms? HELLO IN THERE.  Zoooooooooooom  lenses!!! They're these cool things where you can, like, totally change the focal length just by turning a ring, eh.  It's like, so totally awesome.  Fixed focal length, on the other hand, is like, so totally 1960. 

Sharp, sure. Whatever. On a camera meant to compete with high-end 35mm Nikon and Canon, there MUST BE core zoom lenses. And fast ones at that. 
And here's the kicker.......what if the rumours about Nikon's "MX" format are true? It'll deliver thrice the ISO performance, and a third the price, I bet.  And it will actually be available for purchase in that nifty, here's-my-money-hand-me-my-camera-I-have -shoot-tomorrow kind of way. 

with zoom lenses. 
So, cheering and booing.

We live in interesting times.

- N.

You can calm down now as there is supposedly a 30-90 zoom lens..
:+}