Leica's new MF system Options

[rainer_v]

thinking now two days about the leica i have to say it does not convince me.
looks as its too much in the middle between the big mf chips and the 35mm ff chips,- which even will be one step better in 1 or 1,5 years, at the moment the leica will hit stores.

more so seeing the new 5d2 which impresses me a lot.
sorry me, but i think i would prefer to get the 5d2 than the leica, even if both would cost the same ( of course not thinking in the possible resale value, i say this just from practical standpoint for shooting with it as a " one and only" camera ).
if i`d shoot fashion i would like to have 1.2 or 1.4 lenses and hi isos. if i`d shoot weddings the great movies in the 5d would be an usefull thing as well as the hi iso and the much faster shooting rate and multipoint af. in architecture or landscape i`d like to have a "real" shift system as the artec or the alpa with even much better lenses than any retrofocal construct. if i want big sensors for portrait or product i`d think that 56% more than 35mm size is somehow more, but even the "older" mf format of 36x48mm are 100% larger than 35mm, which is nearly the twice than the leice offers - and these chips will be a lot cheaper at the moment the leica comes. ....
thanks to the discussions here, i became also aware how closed might be a merge of moving and standing images, lets see what comes from red, although the canon videos are really impressive too. cant imagine that the leica will sell good, but clearly this depends a lot of the price too. finally, one time more, the best argument to buy the camera might be the red dot on it.

This post has been edited by rainer_v: Sep 24 2008, 03:43 AM

[mcfoto]

thinking now two days about the leica i have to say it does not convince me.
looks as its too much in the middle between the big mf chips and the 35mm ff chips,- which even will be one step better in 1 or 1,5 years, at the moment the leica will hit stores.

more so seeing the new 5d2 which impresses me a lot.
sorry me, but i think i would prefer to get the 5d2 than the leica, even if both would cost the same.
if i`d shoot fashion i would like to have 1.2 or 1.4 lenses and hi isos. if i`d shoot weddings the great movies in the 5d would be an usefull thing as well as the hi iso and the much faster shooting rate and multipoint af. in architecture or landscape i`d like to have a "real" shift system as the artec or the alpa with even much better lenses than any retrofocal construct. if i want big sensors for portrait or product i`d think that 56% more than 35mm size  is somehow more, but even the "older" mf format of 36x48mm are 100% larger than 35mm, which is nearly the twice than the leice offers  - and these chips will be a lot cheaper at the moment the leica comes. ....
thanks to the discussions here, i became also aware how closed might be a merge of moving and standing images, lets see what comes from red, although the canon videos are really  impressive too.
cant imagine that the leica will sell good, but clearly this depends a lot of the price too. finally, one time more, the best argument to buy the camera might be the red dot on it.

Hi
Well put!
Cheers Denis

[markowich]

Hi
Well put!
Cheers Denis

i have to admit that initially after the announcement i felt some craving....but after some reflections i came to the same conclusion: the concept might be outdated before the camera hits the market. most likely nikon will go the 24mpx, canon beyond thirty in their next iteration. my H1 + my upcoming P65+/Leaf A10 will do 55-60 (albeit heavier setup than leica), so what is the leica for after all?
jaust as rainer i feel (for the first time tempted by canon's offering, the 5D mark II. the only problem i see are the canon lenses. i think there is universal agreement that the nikons are superior, at least in the 14-35 mm regime. and, as i said, i do not want to use manual focus on a DSLR. if i really want to focus manually, then on my alpa-DB combo, for the sake of the best achievable quality.
peter

[Henry Goh]

I think the Rollei Hy6 is a better way to spend my money instead of S2. With Rollei, I have the option to use WLF, which to me is still a better way to shoot people and products. I think Leica will remain a rich man's toy in this new format.

[eronald]

Hi
Well put!
Cheers Denis

I think in the end the market for such a camera depends on flexibility, and flexibility means fast lenses and/or high ISO. The Leica has neither - for now.

Maybe a CMOS model with super clean 6400 ISO (10MP with binning) would be a game changer, allowing weddings, fashion shows, in and also the quick and easy use of shift lenses for interiors.

For now, the Canon and Nikons allow all of the above albeit at lower quality than MF; which is why the Canon and Nikons are still in the bag of every pro who has MF.

It's going to be a serious issue even for static set-ups. Which would you rather do: Bring in a truck of lights and get it right during the shoot - or have an assistant carry in a couple of suitcases of lights and spend a few hours in post improving the selects ?

Remember that every stop of ISO means ALL THE LIGHTS have to have double power, and weigh twice as much, and cost that much more to rent ... and then neeed generators because they will fry the location electricty. And then the generators need transportation and a place to put them and an assistant to feed them, and it's all because of a couple of stops ISO ...

Well, I guess I shouldn't preach to people who do this every day ...

I predict the 5DII and its successors are going to hit real hard in the video industry where the huge continuous lighting is even more of an issue. They'll reduce the budget for night and interior shots, and also hugely simplify the logistics. WHo cares if the quality is not tops ?

Edmund

This post has been edited by eronald: Sep 24 2008, 04:21 AM

[kipling]

i find it kind of strange, all the talk and comparisons with mfd and ff dslr's and how the leica fits in.

i don't think the leica is in between anything on this, i really think that they have built this around the concept of ultimate image quality in a hand holdable, non studio camera.

i'm really surprised that mamiya, phase didn't do exactly the same thing with the zd camera. it could have been the bridge camera to have. with a phase p31+ technology in it, for a good price and a few refinements it would have sold like crazy.

actually the size of the chip or sensor format is completely irrelevant. this whole leica thing stands on the foundation of the lenses.

no one in their right mind thinks that leica can build a better digital camera than nikon or canon. they can't. it will be slower, have more noise at lower iso setting, worse auto focus, etc. the only thing they can do is what they did with the m8, make a box that takes great lenses and use a good ccd chip and with the help of phase software, put out an amazing file.

the format decision is just good marketing. it pits them against the vunerable, outragiously expensive, underwhelming funtioning mfdb camera makers. that way they'rr on an even playing field and can compete.

we all know that canon, nikon and sony are driving at the meat of the professional market with their new 20+mp cameras. if leica can find an acceptable price point, like hasselblad has done with the h3d II 31 they will have a chance.

as far as the new 50 - 60 mp $40.000 backs and cameras go, i think this will prove to be the worst decision mf camera makers could have made. instead of making their cameras better, and keeping them at a price point that people can actually afford (as canon and nikon have been doing for years) they went nuts and forgot that photographers are mere mortals.

[rainer_v]

i find it kind of strange, all the talk and comparisons with mfd and ff dslr's and how the leica fits in.

i don't think the leica is in between anything on this, i really think that they have built this around the concept of ultimate image quality in a hand holdable, non studio camera.

i'm really surprised that mamiya, phase didn't do exactly the same thing with the zd camera. it could have been the bridge camera to have. with a phase p31+ technology in it, for a good price and a few refinements it would have sold like crazy.

actually the size of the chip or sensor format is completely irrelevant. this whole  leica thing stands on the foundation of the lenses.

no one in their right mind thinks that leica can build a better digital camera than nikon or canon. they can't. it will be slower, have more noise at lower iso setting, worse auto focus, etc. the only thing they can do is what they did with the m8, make a box that takes great lenses and use a good ccd chip and with the help of phase software, put out an amazing file.

the format decision is just good marketing. it pits them against the vunerable, outragiously expensive, underwhelming funtioning mfdb camera makers. that way they'r on an even playing field and can compete.

we all know that canon, nikon and sony are driving at the meat of the professional market with their new 20+mp cameras. if leica can find an acceptable price point, like hasselblad has done with the h3d II 31 they will have a chance.

as far as the new 50 - 60 mp $40.000 backs and cameras go, i think this will prove to be the worst decision mf camera makers could have made. instead of making their cameras better, and keeping them at a price point that people can actually afford (as canon and nikon have been doing for years) they went nuts and forgot that photographers are mere mortals.

i agree in many points, especially in the last one.
but i dont understand why you think the camera should not be compared with existing solutions. further i am not sure if its clever marketing.
with the R and M one can use at leats the stil lexisting lenses, which many leica users already have.
with the S everything has to be bought new, which brings the price in a completely other level, independent the price of the S body itself.

i.m.o. it would be clever marketing to fix the IR behavor ( i dont be brave enough to say issue ) of the M or invest more to bring out a fullframe M. it never convinced me that it cant be done for the angle the light hits the sensor with wide angles. at least the symmetric schneider wa lenses do the same with mf backs and it works quite well. later they could add some sligthly more retrofocal lenses to the M line ( as the rodenstock HR lenses ) and ask their collectionists, dentists and star shooters some horrendous money for them. i am sure they could sell in this way and repair their fragile reputation, earned with the M8.
also the R lineup is a field where i see future ( maybe ),- but lets see what will happen.

This post has been edited by rainer_v: Sep 24 2008, 05:47 AM

[BernardLanguilli...]

as far as the new 50 - 60 mp $40.000 backs and cameras go, i think this will prove to be the worst decision mf camera makers could have made. instead of making their cameras better, and keeping them at a price point that people can actually afford (as canon and nikon have been doing for years) they went nuts and forgot that photographers are mere mortals.

If you replace keeping them by taking them to, then I agree 100%.

Cheers,
Bernard

[gwhitf]

for me, i was at first excited, then i started doing the math, especially when i realized it was a unique format so that meant i'd have to buy a backup body as well. the numbers are quite high.

then i remembered all that filter/magenta mess with the M camera, and I just bet, (as with version 1.0 of anything), there will be problems with the S Leica.

and by the time the S ships, Canon/Nikon will have something mindblowing, and for a tiny fraction of the money.

what does impress me are the LENSES. if they're anything close to my Hasselblad 203FE lenses, which I know they will be, they'll be amazing, even wide open.

but at some point, you've still got to write the check, and as we're seeing, the world is changing. clients are not viewing files at 200% and counting the pixels. in this high pressured world, where clients want to cram as many setups into a shoot day as possible, the main thing for me is a solid working camera that works well tethered. the camera is a tool; it is not a status symbol. the main thing for me is dependability.

to be honest, NONE of these cameras is very exciting to me. none of them. the canon works, but it's still got that 35 vibe to it. the H1 had that mirror slap; the Contax ate batteries and had a tiny dark viewfinder. i still want a camera that feels like a Mamiya 7 in my hands, but has a four inch LCD, and has a 645 frame proportion. (once I realized the Leica was still that awful 35 frame shape, that was the final dagger).

what amazes me is that some Fred Sanford company hasn't come up with an adapter, (or even an original new box camera) that would allow any brand of MF lens to be mounted. to me, it's about the LENS. think of how many RZs are out there; how many Fuji 680's are out there (the best camera ever ever made; i shot it for fifteen years solid; can you say that about any digital camera?). think of the 203FE Hasselblad or even the V Hasselblad. All those great lenses, and so many photographers having them sitting in their closets, PAID FOR and ready to use.

i simply think that this new world economy will NOT support it, enough for any one company to survive. yes, there will be dentists buying the Leica, but enough to actually turn a profit on all that R&D? yes, the p65+ is a great tool, and this Leica system, but it takes a lot of volume to support this. i just don't see it, when the 5DMarkII is $2700. i just don't see it.

i think too, with the Leica thing, there is a Europe vs. America thing going on, similar to what's going on with Sinar. American photographers love the thought of Leica/Sinar, but they simply won't write the check, due to fear of no rental, and no support. It's a perception thing.

This post has been edited by gwhitf: Sep 24 2008, 07:09 AM

[kipling]

...
but i dont understand why you think the camera should not be compared with existing solutions. further i am not sure if its clever marketing.
with the R and M  one can use at leats the stil lexisting lenses, which many leica users already have.
with the S everything has to be bought new, which brings the price in a completely other level, independent the price of the S body itself.

The fact is that Leica simply has no way to compete with canon and nikon (and now sony) on a level playing field. the r was always pretty much a throwback and a dentists camera. the only thing they have going for them is their lens quality, so by taking the camera to a unique level with the mini-mf sensor they are competeing with the h3d II 31, the aptus 65, etc. in a dslr body.

that's clever marketing in my book, because in end effect there is no difference between a digital ff canon file and a phamiya/hy6/h3d file in print. the client sees no difference. it has all come down to flexibility, functionality combined with price becuse the file quality is to all but the pixel peeping few a wash.

as far as the r lenses go, nice to have but every other camera on the playing field has a line of AF lenses...a new r with existing lenses is soooooo far behind the curve it's not even funny. and if they're going to change the whole thing and have new af lenses, well i feel they made a better decision by creating a new marketing devise as well.

This post has been edited by kipling: Sep 24 2008, 08:18 AM

[paulmoorestudio]

warning! rant coming..

first off I am sick of this association with leica and dentists.. but since it has been brought up..
lets look at dentists.. you know why they can afford a nice new photo toy? well I just took 2 of my kids the other day to a dentist.. and my rough cowboy math says they are billing 5+ grand a day at this office..and they are booked up, I was "lucky" to get them in on a SAT...well you do the math.
I don't think there is a forum for them where they bitch and moan about not being able to buy that new camera to shoot pictures of teeth and you know that has to make a new leica system look like a bargain..you think they are going to eat the expense of upgrading?..Yeah, lets talk dentists..lets work smart like dentists. As a 20+ year member of APA I encourage you all to join this or asmp and work " smart".
This new camera looks to be the creme de la creme of small cameras.. should every tom, dick and harry shooter afford it.. no. So, look in the mirror and ask yourself are you in that top percentage of guys/gals who should even be thinking about this camera..because Leica does not need most of our business for it to succeed, just the best of us and if this forum is a cross section (debatable) then that counts most of us out..So work on your game plan to get a little closer to the folks who bill out 10-100 grand a day(they are out there) and then see if you feel the same about this new camera.
For those of you talented enough and with the business smarts to get those rates and you want to shoot with the canon markwhatever or 5dwhatever great, if it works in your game, perfect, you can use whatever you want, the world is your oyster. But for the rest of us-- don't let envy cloud your assessment of a camera you haven't seen the final specs on or handled!! and if you do want this camera, then find a way to make it pay for itself.. bill everyday for equipment.. even on little no budget jobs for a friend.. put a line item in for 25 bucks.. something to say hey this is part of my expenses..
and I bill for my expenses.
The camera is our most import tool we have as photographers to define us visually in the marketplace.. make it an asset not a liability. and hey, don't even start with "oh my clients won't put up with me charging for that" or " new world economy".." my clients don't care what I shoot with and how many megapixels it has". About 5 years ago I tried repeating to myself " oh my clients don't care about whether I shoot film or digital" ..that didn't last long. We have to complete with others, and we have to put out the best we are capable of if you don't you are out of business.
There is always room at the top, this new leica S2 will prove that.

This post has been edited by paulmoorestudio: Sep 24 2008, 09:20 AM

[Nemo]

In the Farkas Blog I found an interesting comment about the new S lenses:

I saw Peter Karbe and said hello. As many may know, Peter is the head optics designer of Leica, personally responsible for the slew of excellent glass in the last few years. He worked on the 50mm f/1.4 ASPH for ten years to perfect it…in his spare time. Totally brilliant optics designer. We spoke briefly about the new S lenses and wanted to show me the MTF charts for them. He didn’t have them with him, but I am hoping to see them later on in the week. He said that they are perfectly flat lines all the way up to the top, from one side to the other. Apparently, Peter believes these lenses might be the best Leica has ever produced. Now that is saying something.

http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/

[Christopher]

In the Farkas Blog I found an interesting comment about the new S lenses:
http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/

I would love to mount them on my 1DsMk3 or 4 ^^

[Nemo]

These lenses are NOT typical MF lenses. Mamiya and Fuji/Hasselblad are good, no question, but... this is Leica.

[Nemo]

645 Full Frame cameras are much more expensive than the S2.

Hasselblad tried to establish a new (smaller) format based on 36x48 (the 28mm D lens is an example), but finally they were pushed towards the 645 FF model by Phase One/Mamiya. Now they offer "cropped" backs, and future FF backs will be even more expensive. The psychological perception of a "cropped" camera by many customers has some negative bias. Wrong decision?

Due to the same reasons, the 6x6 format of Rollei/Sinar/Leaf will force them to offer a 6x6 FF... In other case you will be "wasting" those 6x6 lenses. Gorgeous and huge format... but very expensive!

Mike Johnston's comments on digital formats are very interesting:

http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/t...innovation.html

.

This post has been edited by Nemo: Sep 24 2008, 09:38 AM

[rainer_v]

warning! rant coming..

first off I am sick of this association with leica and dentists.. but since it has been brought up..
lets look at dentists.. you know why they can afford a nice new photo toy?  well I just took 2 of my kids the other day to a dentist.. and my rough cowboy math says they are billing 5+ grand a day at this office..and they are booked up, I was "lucky" to get them in on a SAT...well you do the math.
I don't think there is a forum for them where they bitch and moan about not being able to buy that new camera to shoot pictures of teeth and you know that has to make a new leica system look like a bargain..you think they are going to eat the expense of upgrading?..Yeah, lets talk dentists..lets work smart like dentists.  As a 20+ year member of APA I encourage you all to join this or asmp and work " smart".
This new camera looks to be the creme de la creme of small cameras.. should every tom, dick and harry shooter afford it.. no.  So, look in the mirror and ask yourself are you in that top percentage of guys/gals who should even be thinking about this camera..because Leica does not need most of our business for it to succeed, just the best of us and if this forum is a cross section (debatable) then that counts most of us out..So work on your game plan to get a little closer to the folks who bill out 10-100 grand a day(they are out there) and then see if you feel the same about this new camera.
For those of you talented enough and with the business smarts to get those rates and you want to shoot with the canon markwhatever or 5dwhatever great, if it works in your game, perfect, you can use whatever you want, the world is your oyster.  But for the rest of us-- don't let envy cloud your assessment of a camera you haven't seen the final specs on or handled!! and if you do want this camera, then find a way to make it pay for itself.. bill everyday for equipment.. even on little no budget jobs for a friend.. put a line item in for 25 bucks.. something to say hey this is part of my expenses..
and I bill for my expenses. 
The camera is our most import tool we have as photographers to define us visually in the marketplace.. make it an asset not a liability.  and hey, don't even start with "oh my clients won't put up with me charging for that" or " new world economy".." my clients don't care what I shoot with and how many megapixels it has".  About 5 years ago I tried repeating to myself " oh my clients don't care about whether I shoot film or digital" ..that didn't last long. We have to complete with others, and we have to put out the best we are capable of if you don't you are out of business.
There is always room at the top, this new leica S2 will prove that.

in which aspect it will be top in your opinion?
i cant see it, but i`ll wait till i see some images or till the camera will meet the stores.

even in the good ol times when i felt enough talented to use leicas i never could understand the hyteric fits of their users about their uncomparable qualities.

This post has been edited by rainer_v: Sep 24 2008, 09:39 AM

[mcfoto]

In the Farkas Blog I found an interesting comment about the new S lenses:
http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/

Quote
(The S2 boasts the ability to simultaneously shoot DNG+JPG in camera, and produce exceptional quality JPGs to boot. Most MFD systems aren’t able to generate decent JPGs in real time. This feature and the ability to shoot 1.5 fps start to separate the S2 from the MFD pack.)

Hi
Is 1.5 fps the shooting speed of the S2?

Denis

This post has been edited by mcfoto: Sep 24 2008, 09:44 AM

[paulmoorestudio]

Quote
(The S2 boasts the ability to simultaneously shoot DNG+JPG in camera, and produce exceptional quality JPGs to boot. Most MFD systems aren’t able to generate decent JPGs in real time. This feature and the ability to shoot 1.5 fps start to separate the S2 from the MFD pack.)

Hi
Is 1.5 fps the shooting speed of the S2?

Denis

as of today they are saying 1.5fps.. but they were quick to ad that it is still a prototype and some things are not fixed yet..I think they would love it to be 2+fps as a lot of shooters would as well.

[tho_mas]

i really think that they have built this around the concept of ultimate image quality in a hand holdable, non studio camera.

Saw the mock-up today. The Contax645 (or Mamiya/Phase) is a lean camera compared to the S-Leica. With a 80mm lens and a Phase back the Contax is even as deep as the S-Leica with one of the two mock-up lenses shown at Photokina (one of it a 70mm if I remember correctly - huge!). So existing MF cameras are as hand holdable as the Leica (as far as the dimensions of the mock up really tell something).
At Phase One someone said that there will be 5 Leica lenses for the Phase One camera in about half a year (for the Phase One, not for the Leica; if it's already mentioned somewhere in this thread... sorry for double post).
As to the prices... maybe offtopic... but just read the new prices of Hasselblad:
Hasselblad H3DII-50 - € 17.995,-
Hasselblad H3DII-39 Multishot - € 19.995,-
Hasselblad H3DII-39 + HC80 - € 14.995,-
Hasselblad H3DII-31 + HC80 - € 11.995,-
So Phase One seems to be alone at (and over) the top with regard to prices.

This post has been edited by tho_mas: Sep 24 2008, 10:01 AM

[gwhitf]

Today, to all my clients, I am announcing a new style of photography for my portfolio. I haven't really perfected it, and I don't have it in my portfolio that I could Fedex to them today, but I have an idea of how I might actually perfect it. I will run ads in Archive and Communication Arts, announcing my idea for my new style that one day I might actually be able to show in my portfolio. Maybe by the end of 2009 or so, I might actually have shot one frame and have one print in my book with this new style. But it is vitally important that I announce it now, even though I have nothing concrete to show.

This announcement will make my clients feel certain about my ideas, even though I haven't really produced anything yet. But the most important thing is that I'm talking about my new style, even though I'm not really doing it.

This action today will make clients think good things about me, and my work style.

I can't really take jobs based on this style; maybe by Fall 2009. But the main thing is -- they are talking about me.

My marketing people tell me this is a solid approach to business, and to generating customer loyalty.

This is the Leica way, thus, it must be good.