Capture One 5 - A serious warning regarding your metadata Options

[bodenzord]

By the way if the files have metadata before they are loaded by C1 the metadata appears fine.

That's what I'm saying. I added metadata before opening file in C1. Thus, C1 one is indeed seeing the metadata. The problem for me, is that it's passing through the keywords only when the file is processed and not the other metadata that I've input as well. I think this is very strange. Why would C1 see the metadata but not pass it through during process?

[bodenzord]

FYI, I created a support case at Phase One about my test results. Here is their reply:

Dear Michael,
thank you very much for doing such a comprehensive test. Our developers are already looking into the case so we could change the application's behaviour in future versions.

Right now the best solution is to add the metadata after processing. We are aware of the restrictions of this and will try to find a solution as soon as we can.

Thank you very much for your understanding and for contacting us.
With kind regards,

Jakub
Phase One Technical Support

[Adrian Lambert]

Ah, sorry. I'm doing too many things at once here. I should have taken more time to read it properly.
So after you have seen the pics in C1 with the metadata stripped, if you return to PM, is the metadata still there? In my case, at least once, it wasn't. It had been removed seemingly by c1.

[bodenzord]

So after you have seen the pics in C1 with the metadata stripped, if you return to PM, is the metadata still there?

In the most simple of terms, I am inputing metadata before C1. I then see the metadata in C1. After processing the image, only the keywords are passed through. Additionally, the original CR2 file retains the metadata and is seen in PhotoMechanic. So...C1 is not altering the CR2 file.

This post has been edited by bodenzord: Nov 12 2009, 01:14 PM

[dougpetersonci]

You mean that Capture One is actually physically changing your RAW file and stripping your metadata? I find this hard to believe. When does this happen? Just when viewing the RAW file in Capture One or after processing it? Can you see from the modified date of the file in Finder that it has been changed?

One of the central tenants of Capture One is that it does not make any write commands to a raw file. So no, nothing here involves C1 changing the raw files. I have never seen a case where C1 has made a change to a raw file and would politely request that anyone claiming this is happening would be especially sure they are not mistaken (which is very easy to happen).

One thought: depending on the OS, Permissions, and how each software package addresses the file it may be the case that a program like PM may not be able to save the changes to the raw file (a program like PM does not have the same tenant as C1 of never making a write command to a raw file) if the file has been locked for use by C1 (e.g. C1 is open or was recently closed) and may or may not gracefully indicate it's lack of being able to save the changes therefore creating them impression that C1 has "stripped" that change. I am completely speculating - I have not used PM in several years.

Re: metadata implementation specifics and workflow that I agree could use a lot of improvement. C1 version 5.0 is the first modern version of C1 to implement any serious attempt at metadata management; it is not a core strength of the program, and can be very much expected to improve in the coming months.


Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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This post has been edited by dougpetersonci: Nov 17 2009, 01:54 PM

[Schewe]

In the most simple of terms, I am inputing metadata before C1. I then see the metadata in C1.

And there is, essentially the problem...

PM is actually taking the extreme liberty to write into (update and modify) the original raw file...and that is bad juju...

Nikon has been burned and anybody writing into a raw file format that is _NOT_ fully documented is taking a real risk.

I've talked with the author of PM several ties about this issue and he's fearless (which I would normally consider a good thing) except for the fact that writing ANYTHING into an undocumented and proprietary raw file format is playing with fire...

Admittedly, C1's metadata handling is primitive...and Photo Mechanic's handling is advanced (arguably TOO advanced) so the net result is that some sort of DAM _AFTER_ PM and C! is needed such as Lightroom.

Clearly, stuff added in PM SHULD be picked up by downstream applications...but ONLY if the metadata is properly written (and in the case of PM that's NOT 100% clear).

Bottom line-this stuff just BARELY WORKS-and the more that software makers can work together, the better. I'm happy to pass this whole thread off to the guys at C1 who could do something about this....but I think Dennis is gonna hafta blink too...

P.S. I've know Dennis for over a decade and he's a Really Good Guy (RGG™) but is still human and as such, prone to errors...

[bodenzord]

PM is actually taking the extreme liberty to write into (update and modify) the original raw file...and that is bad juju...

You are very correct with this viewpoint, and I don't argue the fact.

But I think you're missing the point. Whether the metadata is written in the RAW file with PM or if it's written to a XMP sidecar file with Bridge, C1 sees the metadata, but ONLY PASSES THROUGH THE KEYWORDS.

So...this has nothing to do with whether PM should or should not write to the RAW file. It has all to do with C1 not correctly processing the metadata.