Dear friends,
I just noticed a very disturbing issue on (actually all) my leaf aptus 75 files.There
is a sharp color shift/contrast change across the vertical middle line of the images. It is noticable in very bright zoes and even more so in very dark zones.
When looking at the Aptus 75 sensor it becomes apparent that it consists of two equally big parts which are joined together veritically. Is it possible that the color shift stems from this sensor design issue? Actually, I should add that this color shift occurs on all my files, sometimes worse and sometimes less noticable, independent of whether I capture the images with my ALPA SWA (with Schneider Digitar lenses, 24mm and 47mm) or with my Hasselblad H1 using various lenses. I uploaded two (very big) jpgs, which show this ugly effect, on my pbase page:

www.pbase.com/markowich

in the gallery entitled : leaf_aptus_75_test. To see it clearly, look for the vertival middle line of the images.

Both files were converted to jpg using ACR (please believe me that the colorshift also occurs when converting with Leaf Capture!!!), no postprocessing done.
I would be grateful for an explanation and for a (software?) fix, or for advice on how to proceed further. In particular, a response of Jair, who has been very helpfully active on this forum would be highly appreciated. Of course I can provide
the original RAW files via ftp.
With best regards, Peter Markowich

Hi Peter,

I have seen this before.

Contact user 'rehnniar'. He worked with the developer of http://www.brumbaer.de/Tools/Tools.html

to optimise the developer for the e75.

At first there was the same problem you have seen, but they tweaked the processor and the seam became invisible.

Thanks for the reply! But please... let me say that I find this kind of performance
completely inacceptable for a 30 000.- Euro technology. I am expecting a fix from Leaf in their Capture software or, maybe, my sensor is particularly bad such that it has to be replaced.
Best, Peter

Hello, I am an outsider in this topic because I only shoot a normal 24x36 DSLR, I have now seen this vertical line issue several times. What I dont really understand is that IF the sensors are really 2 24x36mm stitched together, I am a bit amazed about the price of those camera backs. A 24x36sensor doesn't seem to cost that much anymore to manufacture, however the MF backs - which have of course more advantages than just sensor size and pixels - are much much more...

Peter, I have looked at your other galleries, I was impressed by your 2005 Brazil pictures, and particulary by the Iguassu shots. Were they made with film or digital? And if digital, with a MF back or a DSLR?

regards, Bernhard

Hi Bernhard,
thanks for the compliment! The Brazil shots were taken with a Kodak 14nx.
Best, Peter

There is a beta version of the Custom Gain Adjuster which will eventually find it's way into LC 10 that is available. This will eliminate the variance, although it also has the effect of raising the gamma a bit, so be aware that you don't blow highlights out. Leaf will have an adjustable slider to adjust for the gamma at a future date.

For now it is a stand alone app, and in beta form. If anyone requires it, please contact me offline: shendrix@ppratlanta.com.

So far, I have only had one customer who has reported this, so at least at this stage, it appears to be not widespread. Recall also that all digital back sensors have variances and bad pixels as a result of the manufacturing process. There is no such thing as a pristine, perfect sensor. That is why all digital backs either have a calibration file imbeddded into the firmware or on a separate CD that is essentially a re-mapping of that individual CCD, to make an adjustment for the variances and bad pixels. When you do a custom gain file, you're basically creating a re-map of that intial factory calibration.

Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital

sorry, of course it should be Dalsa instead of Salsa...
Peter

ps: Yair just emailed me saying that my back has to be replaced. I appreciate his fast response!
Peter

Hello Peter,

I have the same issue. Leaf is replacing the back. I will be stuck with this one until they do. Using the Custom Gain Adjuster is the only workaround (aside from switching to retrofocus lenses which don't sit so close to the sensor. In the short term think of this as an education in what shooting super wide with the P45 is like... shoot a photo, shoot a plastic card, shoot a photo, shoot a plastice card....

I believe the problem is with a batch of sensors that LEAF received. The problem has only been known for a few weeks I'm guessing. The vast majority of backs are used by people on H1's and other cameras with retrofocus lenses. As soon as you move the lens further from the sensor the problem goes away (although I am supprised this is not the case for you). As a result, only those of us with these large format style wide angle lenses will have a problem. I have the issue with my 60mm digitar. It does not manifest on the H1 I use. Lens movements also can cause the problem.

On another note, I have an Alpa 12SWA with the 24, 35, and 60 digitars. I really want the 47 also. How do you like your 47 on your Alpa. It is the Helvetar, correct? Any chromatic abberation? Would you buy it again? I am about ready to throw down the cash.

Thanks,

Eric

Leaf is always fast to respond to a problem .

A friend of mine,Steffen Jahn from Germany,had a similar problem with his A-75.
Leaf replaced his back as well.
Some of the Sinar eMotion's had a similar problem.
Obvious the problem lays with Dalsa!
Regards,
Willem.

hi eric,
the 47mm lens i have is a schneider digitar. just wonderful, (almost) no chromatic abberation, great microcontrast!
best, peter

If I have understood the problem correctly, it is Leaf's fault, not Dalsa. The electonics (by Leaf) which extract data from the sensor and create the captured image should be mapped to handle the differences between adjacent sensor 'panels', much the same as they map out any dead pixels.

This is very helpful info. I've been on a product shoot using the A75 for the last week using LF with a sliding back and 80/120 Digitars. No problems with colorshift, and the files are beautiful. Only problem has been when shooting a really sparkly and shimmery subject, the back occasionaly freaks out. Quitting the app and/or trashing prefs solves the problem.

Overall, as a dedicated Phase user and P25 owner, I am very impressed with the A75. I think WA LF is an area that needs improvement/refinement on both Phase and Leaf systems.

Is the sensor,that is used in the A75,actually two separate smaller components that
are joined or is the problem that some are experiencing the result of some
inconsistency in the dual readout process that Leaf employs?

Mark

After a little more testing with my new Aptus 75 I am also a winner,

Leaf Aptus 75 Sample

I guess they need to start testing these backs before they ship them? Lets just hope I can take care of this before my shoot next week. I was able to get a clean file with the gain adjuster but that’s not always an option. Sometimes I want to use the center filter.

This is disturbing to see and hear. I'm still waiting on a Leaf 65, but I'm certainly now going to look very closely.

For those of you with this problem, can you post when you received your backs so we can see if there is a pattern that might imply a bad batch. If the dates are scattered, then it might suggest a more pervasive problem.

Thanks,

Robert

A quote from a trusted colleague!

" Aptus 75: With the introduction of the 7.2/6.8 micron sensors the color cast problem became much more prominent with symmetrical high-end lenses but also with retrofocal lenses. The "centerfold" problem that came up also (Dalsa sensors, but only in some extreme lighting conditions or with extreme movements, same problem with the Sinar eMotion 75) is a rather nasty one. Both can get cured with an up to come gain calibration tool.
So in the end ALL backs from ALL manufacturers need a calibration/correction in one or the other way.
This is hardly acceptable.
The overall performance of the Leaf backs is still better but this is a personal opinion. I hope that Leaf is correcting the residual problems very soon (Canon 22 MP ante portas) as some of our customers with faulty sensors run crazy where others are absolutely happy campers."

IOW , no back is perfect!

Hopefully the next generation will give us less time in post!

Unfortunately this is an unaccptable situation. I have been waiting almost 6 weeks for a replacement back from Leaf with no firm date as to when the replacement will arrive. In fact, I know two other APtus 75 photographers who have had their backs replaced and are experiencing the same problem with the replacements.

Imagine, 1 out of every 125 or so Aptus 75's have this problem as reported by a reliable source at Leaf! What does this mean for the company? Can they replace all of the backs? Why are they not working overtime to create a firmware solution?

The PC only crowd does not have a solution as the new gain adjustment softaware is Mac only and is barely a work around as it changes the gamma of ther raw file. pretty sad IMO.

These backs cost photographers a lot of money. Is it too much to ask that they work as advertised?

I agree 100%, this is a major problem. I have been waiting about 4 -5 weeks for a replacement back. I even spoke with Leaf in Israel about this last night. I was originally told I should have a new back in 2 weeks. When I spoke to Leaf in Israel, they now have no time line. They are having a hard time finding sensors that do not create this problem. The problem sounds like it is with Dalsa, but Leaf is ultimately stuck with the problem.

Sounds like a clear mandate for Phase One.

I say this with no intention to buy either since I have had zero problems with 4x5 film At least none that were not caused by me.

I have received several emails from people who are having the same problem.

This evening one fellow mentioned that he purchased an Aptus 65, it had the centerfold issue, it has now been replaced by Leaf for the third time and the back still has the problem.

The problem also exists with the Aptus 22 but I really don't know to what extent. This is a huge problem, assuming that the info provided by leaf is correct and there are hundreds if not thousands of these backs with the centerfold defect.

Can Leaf recall them all? Replace them all?
How might this affect sales and service?

I am not sure where this is all going, but appears that from what people have told me Leaf know of this issue at the begining of the year and said nothing, issued no technical bulletin, and just continued to sell backs.

Doug, Phase their own set of issues.
I wouldn't even consider going there, you know the glass house thing.

My replacement came in two weeks (arrived to Sept 1). It still had the Centerfold issue, and added to that two large diffuse pink blotches (ala Phase One LCC for those of you who know what that looks like). This is all fixed with the Gain Utility, so the problem in not any worse than the first back. It seems that among this crowd, I might be one of the first to have received a replacement. Apparently the people at Leaf headquarters did not know what they were looking for while testing the backs. FYI, The back works as it should with an H1 ... No Centerfold, and no color casts. For anyone using a camera with a mirror box this is a non-issue... ( at least until you try to sell the Digi-back and have no way yourself to tell an architecture, landscape, or view camera shooter whether the back you are selling has the centerfold feature or not).

-Eric

Update... Apparently Leaf sent me the wrong back, during the Friday afternoon office jugling contest the one they sent me accidentally ended up in the good pile.

Hello.
I have a Aptus 75 on a H2 camera.
I better test it a.s.a.p on a view camera to see if there is a problem.
Can someone who has the problem describe how to test for this problem.
Thanks.

Krister

Hmm, that does sound like a serious issue .... It'd be interesting to hear some official comment on the matter.
What I find most disturbing is that a replacement can take up to two weeks; in such a case, I'd expect 24 hrs, 48 hrs tops .....

even after gain adjustment by the viennese leaf representative it turned out that the centerfold problem showed up again. for me as a windows user 80% of the aptus 75 files are unusable. i hope thet leaf will exchange my back for a functioning one.
peter

I thought Leaf backs were Mac only? I checked the Leaf America site, and there's nothing listed for Windows. Can you please enlighten me?

Or maybe Leaf could give you a MacBookPro??

Kumar

You can open a Leaf .mos file on any pc with photoshop raw.

Any news LEAF. Have you guys found any backs that don't have the line? We need updates.

Hi John,

I have not heard anything. I call Rick once a week. I will let you know as soon as I receive my replacement. Please do the same.

Best Regards,

Eric

p.s. John: I have posted over on the Leaf Forum about their support of DNG. Could you contribute? I am trying to gather momentum for having more portable and flexible metadata for archiving puposes with the Leaf files.

For those with the centerfold problem try eMotionDng.

It will convert the mos file to an dng and, when the destich checkbox is marked, will remove the centerfold. The dng can be opened with ACR or Raw Developer. Give it a try.

http://www.brumbaer.com/Tools/Tools.html

Regards
SH

I received a new Aptus 75 to replace my Aptus 75 with the split screen line. On the good side I did get a very clean 30 sec exposure

See Sample of new back image.

I am still wiating, it has been about 2 months maybe a bit more.
I have recently been told that Leaf is getting very close to a fix.

Your going to love this, I heard that there are Leaf Reps still telling people that this is an isolated problem that only 2 people worldwide have had, Leaf fixed the problem for them and all is well.

What is wrong with this picture?

Cautiously Optomistic

Pixjohn, are these pictures from the new Aptus 75? I hope not because I see the centrefold line clear as day. I kid you not and I am using an IBM X40 laptop which does not have the greatest screen in the world.

izaack, I was being a little sarcastic

I have been told by Leaf that a fix be it firmware/hardware is still several months away. This is very concerning. The new Aptus S backs most probably will have the problem solved by Dalsa but they are also several months away before shipping from what I am told.

I am at the end of my rope.

Give the poor guy a break, he's polite and helpful. No point in putting him between a rock and a hard place.
This issue should be directed straight at the main tech support team at Leaf, and their answer or non-answer posted here. Ask them whether their products are suitable for wide-angle photography with short-throw lenses.

Edmund

ATT:LEAF/Mr.Yair

Dear Yair

Please, re-read my previous posts and your answers from two months ago and let the Leaf Just Do It this time.

Perhaps, now you could see that Leaf is better of making their forum public. I personally new about the problems before Mr. Markovich posted his. However, this was in time when Michael was going to do the test with Leaf vs. Phase and I didn’t want to sound like I am in favor of the Phase One. So my dear Yair, let the Leaf forum be public it is much healthier for the business.

Yet again, I hope I’m not asking too much.

Your effort is highly valued and appreciated

Regards

izaak

I think you absolutely right in your comments. I went to Photokina last week to look primarily at the Leaf products, most probably to be mounted on a Cambo WDS, so this centrefold problem is very relevant to me and many others. Fortunately I haven't made the purchase yet but I wasn't far away from doing so. Yair is a really helpful guy, flew back with him from Photokina to the UK. However, all that said these problems are very serious. At present all of the above is making me looking again at the Phase backs which I had previously discounted because of their more prominent lens cast issue. But at least P1 do have a solution to the problem.

Steve

Someone at Leaf needs to be pushed to adress this, and find a solution for the photographers affected. I just don't think it should be Yair, he looks to be at the bottom of the food chain, and may even be frightened to get caught in the fallout.

This is one of those cases where the internet allows consumers to circulate the negative features of a product. Keep posting, and something will give ...

Edmund

Caracalla, you are not missing that much on the Leaf forum. You will see mostly the same topics. I would like to see the Leaf forum read only for none Leaf owners.

To Leaf,

I am at the point that I do not see a solution to this problem. Something changed between the back I tested and production. Everything I posted here is not news to Leaf. I even heard from someone that they see the same problem shooting the Aptus 65 on a H1.

I have spent a lot of money on my Aptus 75 and live video dongle. I would like to give Leaf a chance to make good on a new working back. Either an Aptus 75 or next generation back. My other option is to go with a phaseone P45+ since it now has live video.

I see and read a lot of promises from DB manufacture, but they cannot live up to them. It is not just Leaf,

1) Where is the beta for 10.1? When I first purchased my back I was told live video would be in version 10 in a few months. (6 months later?)


2) I have figured out a software work around for the centerline, but its very time consuming. The other issue I have with the gain filter it limits the look to my files. Sometimes with longer lenses I want the lens fall off, but can’t achieve the look because of the line. How long before Leaf builds the custom gain into V10 with 1 single shot? The standalone gain adjuster does not work for my style of shooting tethered and V8 takes way to long to shot a gain adjuster.


3) Another issue I have it resale. Is my back going to be worth less $$ one day because of the centerline?

I have been on the phone with Leaf from Israel, NY and CA. When I spoke to NY today I got the impression that, it’s just the way it is. I do believe Leaf needs to stop making people feel likes it’s only a few backs that have the problem. Stop taking the Bush administration point of view.

All,

First, I would like to apologize for keeping it silent for more than 2 hours on a Friday night...some of you states side may forget that here on the island we are some 5-8 hours ahead of you, but anyway.

Anyone who follows this forum, knows that since the first post regarding the "centrefold" issue, I have been passing on any information I had that could have helped, in both directions.

Any current user who contacted us with this issue, has being taken care of in the best possible way under the circumstances, either on or off-line.
There is no magic here and our people are working hard to find a solution, as crude or as elegant as it may be and we are doing our best to keep these customers informed with any updates.

To put things into perspective, off the several hundreds of Aptus 75 backs that were shipped so far, there are only 15-20 cases world-wide that are currently being dealt with. This is by no means to diminish any of these cases.

The ultimate solution has yet to be found. This may turn out to be a design update at the sensor level, or a firmware/ software fix. We currently have several faithful customers helping us in testing a few of these options.
There is a Leaf Custom Gain Adjuster utility that allows the user to correct any effected file. This app not only fixes the "Centrefold", but it also addresses any colour shifts and lens fall-off/ vignetting. This is not the most elegant and straightforward fix - more likely serving as a test bed for a new algorithm later to be implemented into our capture software.

If at any point down the line, a change in sensor design comes up and resolves this issue, this will of course be everyone's most desired solution.

Wide-Angle photography seems to be the most challenging for digital devices, most certainly when non retro-focal lenses are in use and shifts are being applied.
All digital backs suffer from it to some extent, in one way or another. The solutions from the manufacturers are different to one another, some work better than others.

So at the moment, if one is to choose a back for this type of work. The Aptus 75 is still one of the most capable of producing great results. It may require additional steps to achieve that, but this is, as I said before, a temporary measure until a final solution has been set.

For any further info and direct communication with our support team, you are most welcome to email them via leaf.support@creo.com

Please note that I was never appointed to represent Leaf on this forum. I have started contributing several months ago out of personal interest.
If it turns out that I have to take the fire here, then be it, but I would appreciate it if the discussion can be kept on a professional level, saving any personal attacks. I'd also appreciate it if anyone pointing fingers could post under a real name, makes the conversation allot more comfortable.

Have a good weekend

Yair

Creo UK Ltd., a subsidiary of Kodak.
---------------------------------------
Yair Shahar | Leaf EMEA | Regional Manager |
yair.shahar@creo.com | www.leaf-photography.com

Without going into a lot of detail and naming names (I have agreed not to repeat a lot of what has been told to me by Leaf, their reps and others) I have spoken at length with folks in Israel, the USA and others. The problem is acknowledged by Leaf and is NOT limited to the Aptus 75 and cameras with movements. A number of Aptus 22's have had the problem as far back as a year orso ago. So Leaf has know about this for quite some time.

In fact, I received a call from a film director friend of mine who tells me that one of the major HDTV cameras is also suffering from the centerfold issue. I don't know if that device uses the Dalsa chip but in my opinion this is a Dalsa problem and Leaf and Sinar are having to deal with it.

After I returned by Aptus 75 to my dealer who sent it to Leaf I received an Aptus 22 loaner. It is a nice gesture but took way too long after I continually demanded a loaner. I was asked to be patient as Leaf was working on the issue and on the verge of a solution. The solution unfortunately is a gain adjustment file that leaves the file looking unacceptable for my use.

I bought my Aptus 75 February 26, 2006....it was not delivered until late June. I found the centerfold problem in mid July and returned the unit August 8. It is now October 6 and still there is no fix in sight. Today I was notified it could be another month to three months until I receive a new back. 6 months is a long time to have this kind of money tied up.

As far as the suggestion that tha Aptus is not appropriate for wide angle lenses and cameras with movements I can only say that I was assured that the Leaf back was more appropriate than the Phase product due to the significant color fringing the Phase exhibits with camera movements. This was not an issue, was discussed and deemed a good architectural solution.

Yair is a first class guy! He is genuinely concerned and has done everything he can to help even though his not a USA rep. Anyone who takes him to task is off base and should apologize. Yair should be commended for his participation in these forums and not chided.

It is also my opinion and feeling that the Leaf position is comprised of political talking points that trickle down through the internet by proxy. They are comprised of some fact and some optomistic pandering. The reality of the situations is that there are significantly more than 15-20 backs with this problem. I personally know almost that many people who are experiencing the problem.

As time goes on I am confident that Leaf will solve the problem whether it is a software or hardware fix. The Aptus is a great product and has huge potential. I just hope that Leaf comes clean and publicly addresses the issue because I fear that this is a serious problem that may damage them significantly and none of us want to see that happen.

My signature is there so whoever joins or reads this conversation will know who the person behind the words is.
I am sorry but I feal very uncomfortable discussing such a serious matter with an alias.
If this puts you in an awkward position, please feal free to contact me off-line on my email address above, or directly to our support team with any suggestions/ requests that you may have, in order to convert this discussion into actions and not to leave it as a general attack.

Best

Yair

Over the past couple of months I've had access to all the 35-39 Mp backs currently
discussed regularly on this forum.

During the course of that testing I came across a situation where one of the NON Dalsa
chipped backs had a fairly pronounced centerfold issue.
It only occurred on a few frames (long exposure with even tone blue sky) and didn't repeat
itself in any other situation that I could determine.

I don't want to post the example yet,or name the brand,until the dealers,who have been very
generous in getting me access,and manufacturer have had a chance to review and respond.

The center split was much less obvious that the A75 example posted,here, earlier today but
present nevertheless so i would urge non-Dalsa back users to keep their eyes peeled for something similar.

In my particular case it occurred on dusk exposures of 12-15 seconds with a dominance
of continuous tone blue sky in the frame which made the line easy to spot.
Used a fixed lens camera (non shifting) with a wide angle lens.

Apologies for seeming evasive but I don't want to be responsible for creating an unneccessary
'internet stampede' if it's determined that what i saw was prompted by something I did
inadveretantly,etc.

Mark

Mark hi,

If only for the fairness of giving all the manufacturers the same share of grief. May I suggest that once a reasonable period of time has passed without you getting a response from that other manufacturer, you do go ahead and post that sample image.

I think I know what you are talking about and I also know the cause of the problem, but it would be interesting to see if any other rep (under an alias or not) will be willing to take the heat.

Thanks

Yair

PS Steve I'll be happy to show you our (temporary) solution at any time

What! You mean you'd want to share the limelight


Certainly,and for balance,I think it would be fair to post the sample once the neccessary people
have had a chance to review the affected files properly.

Mark