Hello, I was pointed this way by a friend, and have been trying to soak up all I can. I'm getting ready to take the plunge into Digital, but it has to be on a budget. Right now I shoot with a Canon Elan II, with a rebel kit 28-80, and a 100-300mm F4-5.6. I also have a 540ez flash unit.

I am looking for a used 10D, as a pro who is a friend recommended it. He has a 10D, 20D and a 1D mk2. While he's really enjoying his 1D mk2, he insists that his 10D is better than the 20D, at least in terms of reliability. I've read numerous complaints on the 20D, most revolving around faulty battery grips, and so unless a fix is available, I'm not interested. It may have a higher mp rating, but if it won't turn on, it won't do much good!

My questions are as follows. Is there an "odometer" on the 10D that will allow me to find out how many actuations it has gone through? I know they are rated for 30,000, and I want to see how much life the used ones have left. My friend said he thought there was, but couldn't remember how, and didn't have a manual to check when we spoke.

Next, I would be after a new lens in the ultra wide to wide range, and can't afford genuine Canon lenses fast enough to shoot in low light without getting into the higher ISOs where the 10D gets grainy. What thoughts do people have on the quality of Tamron, Sigma and Tokina offerings.

Dean, I've had all the camera bodies in the non-1 series--and in fact still have my 10D after selling the D30, D60 and 20D when I bought the 5D. If it weren't for economics (meaning I would get more selling a used 20D than a 10D) I would have kept the 20D. Though I enjoy shooting with the 10D (its strictly a backup for me and rarely used), I would have preferred keeping the 20D if for only the much improved higher ISO/lower noise. Then---everything about it is faster--from the image loading to uploading to turning on, etc. As per the grips---the new ones are fine. I bought the original grip for my 20D and it was faulty. I returned it and sat tight and ordered a new one 6 months later. I had no problems with it at all and the buyer of it has not reported any problems with it since--having taken it to Africa this summer. If you want to use a grip then be assured that the new ones (and they can be identified by the contacts and something else which I can't remember--but can be found on a search)---are reliable.

I just wouldn't bypass the 20D if you can find one in your price range. I think you will enjoy shooting with it more than the 10D--having had both. The only thing you can really go by with actuations (unless you send it to Canon) is what the buyer will tell you. He/she may have it set for continuous, but in that case it will roll over every 10,000 shots--so, you won't know if its 13,000 or 23,000 as an example. A new shutter will cost in the neighborhood of $285 from my understanding.

But-- see if your friend will permit you to try both. Nothing like actually shooting with them. Nothing wrong with the 10D---but the 20D is more fun to shoot with and those higher lower noise ISOs may be important to you in the end. In everything I have read and among my photo friends the 20D had few complaints and many kudos.

Diane

Thanks for the info Diane.

Andrew (my friend) is planning to lend me his 20D this weekend to play with. He agrees it's faster, and better in most every respect, but has been frustrated by it's problems, both with the grip and with other instances where it just dies or crashes.

I'm looking forward to trying it, and seeing what I get out of it. I DO need a new short lens, so we'll see how the pocketbook looks. I really need to give up expensive hobbies!

Dean

His problems are not typical I don't think (though they were from those that had the first grips and experienced similar problems, but those have been corrected with the new grips or no grips. It was related to the grip 'flexing' and the contacts being broken). They may very well be related to his grip--which appears to be one of the faulty ones. Canon will fix his free of charge--at least I think that offer still holds. Most certainly he should call Canon tech and since he is a pro, he most likely has the ability to use their quick service.

Good luck with it. BTW, all 3 of the 3rd party lens makers you mentioned have some good WA zooms. I have quite a number of Canon lenses, but my super wide is my older Sigma 15-30 that I used with my D60 and on. Excellent lens IQ wise but a bit clunky to use. The Sigma 12-24 is considered to be an excellent lens and I believe both Tamron and Tokina have good WA zooms. Check dpreview Canon lens forum and ask that question. www.dpreview.com You will get a number of answers as always happens in forums, but you should get some good info too. Never having used anything but my Sigma, I can't answer that. When I had the 20D I had the Canon 10-22 which was outstanding but many thought the Sigma and Tamron offerings were about as good (I think there is a Sigma 10-20 and Tamron similarly. I can't remember if Tokina has a wide or not).

You might consider buying a used zoom--try the Fred Miranda for sale forum where you might find just what you are looking for--both camera and lens wise.
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/

Diane

I had a great experience with the 10d. I owned it for couple of years. Never missed a beat. Image quality is excellent. It still is, it hasnt degraded because Canon has introduced new models

I'd definitely pass on a 10D for a 20D or 30D, or even a 350D or 400D at this point unless you're getting the 10D for a *very* reasonable price.

Canon has made too many advances since then. The newer cameras are so much nicer in so many ways it's just not worth it to get a 10D at this point.

I probably wouldn't even buy one if you offered it to me for $100-200. I had one for 3 years, it did it's job well, but the 20D was a substantial step forward. The 30D arguably is not, but the 20D is. The improvements to dynamic range, metering, speed of operation, autofocus quality, etc.. are substantial with the 20D.

And unless the grip is a must have feature I wouldn't even worry about that. I'd rather have a 20D with no grip then a 10D with a grip. The 10D grip was enormous, it definitely had some drawbacks.

I'd also have to say move beyond the 10D. If your never going to compare cameras, maybe the 10d would be just fine for your needs. One big issue I had with the 10D is reviewing a raw image. The camera would have to completely write the file to the card before it displayed. And if you run off 5 or 6 images, all waiting in the que for transfer, you will be waiting as well just to see them. And I'm not talking a few seconds either... more like 20 to 30 seconds.


Ted
Mishima Photography

I owned a 10D for 3 years and now have a 20D and 5D. All have battery grips installed. I can't say the 20D is one iota less reliable than the 10D. They're equally reliable in my experience. You friend probably got a bum grip or body.

I can say I prefer the smooth textureless viewfinder of the 10D over the 20D/30D. The 20D focusing screen is really gritty, especially with slow zooms. Also the 10D feels more comfy in the hand and seems more solid: deeper indents in the grip and more rubber grip surface on the battery grip. Finally, the 10D actually has less noise at ISO 100 and 200 in the shadows. ISO 400 and above the 20D whips the 10D good. In most other aspects the 20D is a better camera: better AF, faster startup, larger buffer, longer battery life, etc.

Both bodies aren't that wonderful with E-TTL flash. The 10D tends to overexpose about 2/3 stop whereas the 20D underexposes 2/3 stop with Speedlites! However this behavior is consistent so it's no biggie to remember dial in FEC. Popup exposure is a different story. The 10D popup flash nails exposure perfectly most of the time whereas the 20D is short 2/3 stop (same as using a Speedlite).

Nevertheless the 10D is a great camera if you can find a nice one at a bargain price, say $300-400. The 20D is going for almost double.

My 10D review:

http://emedia.leeward.hawaii.edu/frary/canon_eos10d_01.htm

Thanks for all of the advice everyone.

I am sure that for what I want, either camera is fine. I'm not looking to shoot professionally, but I spend enough time shooting in adverse conditions that I doubt a Rebel would do it. It's interesting to hear the reports of reliability. I'm likely going to look a little harder, and save a little more to get the 20D based on what's been said, but a new lens will come first for sure.

I've been trolling Fred Miranda for a while now, man do those classifieds move FAST!

In the meantime, it's more film for me...

Dean

On the initial question of the " odometre" reading, can't help. Nikon cameras include the shutter actuation number in the Exif file, which through some third party software you can actually read. A Mac guy develops this little software,but since I have neiher a mac or a nikon, it is useless to me. I believeth e 10D is rated at more than 30000 shutters, 50000 sounds closer to the mark.

On the second question of camera recommendation, having owned the 10D, 20D and 5D, If I was considering a reduced frame camera, and was coming from a film perspective, then the 20D is definately closer to your film experience. The 10D, though a beufiful camera and ergonimically superior to the 20D, is simply too slow and has a digicam performance to it speed wise. Images are great, and the leap from 6 to 8mp is not great (but you CAN see it).. However too often I missed a shot because my camera had gone to " sleep", and took2-3 seconds to wake up. Far too much.. This single feature made me switch to the 20d, not the extra 2 mpixels.

In the same vein I eventually ditched the 20D for the 5D because of the larger sensor, not the increase in the Mpixels.. And I have to say that except for the missing integrated flash, I am extreemely happy with my full frame digital... If you're on a budget, I would sitll consider teh 20D over the 10D.. performance is just too different, and if you're used to an Elan film body you' ll think you bought a snail!

Good luck with your choice.
Nb - The 10D is still the better designed, more beautiful camera.

I just got the 10d for under 400 and am very happy...
as for shutter actuations...if it hasn't been reset, the algorithm goes like this I think...
101-0001 is the first photo in folder #1
101-0100 is the last photo in folder #1
the counter to the left of the -
turns over when the right side of the -
begins a new 100
102-0101 is the first photo in folder #2
102-0200 is the last photo in folder #2
103-0201 is the first photo in folder #3
109-1000 is the last photo in folder #9
110-1001 is the first photo in folder #10

each folder contains 100 photos/actuations
123-xxxx = 2,3xx photos
223-xxxx = 123 folders (remember the first column began at 1) = 12,3xx photos

929-xxxx = 829 folders = 82,9xxx photos/actuations

google cancount

FYI, I am told that the 30D folders hold up to 999 images, not 99 as in the 10D.
The simple key to remember is that for the 10D at least, in the folder side of the number system, 123-xxxx, the 2 and 3 represent the number of images in the hundreds...i.e. 23 = 23 hundred or 2,300...and the 1 is subtracted from any higher number in that column representing thousands...223 = 123 hundreds or 12,3xx images...whew...

That depends on the particular lens (and possibly on the copy you get). I have a Tamron 90mm F/2.8 Di XR Macro lens, which is the sharpest lens I have ever used. Even with 4x worth of stacked TCs, it gives reasonable sharpness at the pixel level on my 10D (that means that 100 MP would not be wasted on this lens in an 1.6 crop-factor format!).

Tokina 12-24 comes highly recommended...which combined with a canon 24-85 and a canon 50/f:1.8 is a great combo to my way of taking pix