I was all set on getting a P45+, which comes in at about $32k. However, I was just offered a used P25 for $12k. The P25 has about a year left on the warranty and has shot about 20k frames.

The 22mp file size is more than enough for me, however since I'm getting into a MFDB I thought why not get the big back. But, since the P25 is so much cheaper I have to give it some serious thought. And, I can always upgrade the P25 to a P45+ in a year (or sooner) if I feel that I do want to jump up in file sizes or capture rates.

Is $12k a good price for a P25 with 1 year left on the warranty and 20k exposures?

I had a rep come in and let me try out the P45 for a day and was happy with the back and file. But, since this P25 offer just came to me today I haven't had a chance to test it out. From a file quality (not size) standpoint, would the P25 be equal to the P45 (of course we don't know about the P45+).

Ahh, life is so much easier when there are less options!

Thanks,
Jeff

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jeff singer | photography
http://www.jeffsingerphotography.com

yes, its a good price. i paid 14k for a one year warranty p25.

paul

That's a good deal Paul.

JR

How much will the upgrade be to the P45+ in one year? Add that to the 12K and see if that will end up costing you more in the end. If it were the same cost in the end, is there a value to having the smaller file size for the next year?

Also, I just traded in a D2x for a P45+ and got a $4000.00 credit toward the P45+.

I think to find the answer you will have to put the real numbers down on paper triangulating all the Trade-in, no-tax, and Trade-up options out there.

The trade in for the P45+ plus the used P25 would be practically the same as just a new P45+.

Here is one more part of my decision. I'm planning on doing all of the above (either the P45+ or the used P25) with a Hasselblad V mount.

Are there any strong feelings as to why a 501CM wouldn't be a good idea for this (or any) back? I shoot people. I would say 60% natural light and 40% strobes.

My reasoning was that I have a complete V system (that I haven't used in nearly two years since I've only been shooting with a 1DSmkII). I love the camera so I haven't been able to get rid of it and thought this would be a good way to bring it back into service. I don't feel the same connection with the H System although I haven't really used it. I much prefer shooting looking "down" into the camera rather than holding it up more vertically like you would with a 1DSmkII or a H2. When I shoot natural light I'm usually manually focusing. I do tend to AF when shooting strobes, but I don't think AF is a huge feature for me.

My other thought was also that if I end up liking the Hy6 I would move to it when it comes out and proves to be a good option.

Thanks for the comments!

Jeff

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jeff singer | photography
http://www.jeffsingerphotography.com

Good price on the P25 and it is a great back! But I have been disappointed from the ISO. The P25 will only really shoot well at 100 maybe 200 if everything is perfect.

From the look of your work on your website you would want to be shooting at 400. I had the Aptus 75 and had the P25 as a back up. Although the Aptus had nice files, there were too many problems. I have just received my P45 and will upgrade ot the P+ when it is regularly available and shooting well.

I have not had a chance to properly test the P45 at 400, but I have had hear very good things. In about three months the + will be out and that should make a big difference. As great as the P25 is, you are buying into three year old technology.

If you are use to the Hasy V then you will hate the H1. The Hy6 seems like a great camera once it comes out. But as James has said many times here. Buy what works today and is getting you PAID.

So a P45 on a Hassy V with the free upgrade to the P45+ and any new mount within the first year seems like the way to go.

The Hassy V is still a great system that is bullet proof. I miss my 553

Best of Luck,

RA

a P45+ 3yr warranty should not be costing you anything like $32k.
more like $4500- 5000 less than that, including everything (yes shipping)

the P25 suffers badly from Moire, so watch out for that.

either way, excellent products, so good luck.

I use the Hasselblad V system with a P25, mainly for architectural work alongside a Linhof M679. The V system has a few advantages,

-easy switch between vertical and horizontal format, even with a waist level finder
-a number of genuinely exceptional Zeiss lenses, like the 38mm Biogon, 40mm IF, 100mm, 180mm, 250mm superachromat, and 350mm superachromat
-1/500 flash synch
-the Hasselblad Flexbody, a light and easily portable unit giving tilt and +/- 15mm shift with most lenses and a 37mm x 49mm digital sensor
-outstanding Acu Matte focusing screens with a range of really effective focusing and framing aids
-bullet proof mechanical reliability
-huge rental inventory

But there's no such thing as a photographic free lunch, so there's a few notable drawbacks to using a digital back on a Hasselblad V camera

-the mechanical shutters are less consistent than electronic shutters, you'll sometimes see about 1/10 stop exposure difference within a series of frames
-there's no possibility of TTL flash control, so fill flash is that bit more difficult
-the cabling from the lens to the digital back is a weakness, it can sometimes come loose (and Murphy's law says that will always happen when an unrepeatable shot presents itself)
-you'll need a three way adapter to link the cabling in to studio strobes, so that means you've five or six electical connections to potentially let you down

Thanks for all the replies.

So, now to make my head hurt even more I have another option. I found a used P45 with 30 months left on the value add warranty for about $23k.

What are used P45's going for?

So my options are a used P25 for 12k or a used P45 for $23k. The P45+ upgrade on a P25 is $16k while on the P45 is $6k. Of course, I may just keep whatever I buy for a while.

Jeff

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jeff singer | photography
http://www.jeffsingerphotography.com

i have owned both.

Very different file storage requirements. Can you say "Xserve"...?

Also, they handle the battery differently. I'm not sure the differences, but the P45 handles the battery better in general. Has to do with tethering.

Cant imagine needing a file larger than P25, unless you're doing fine art large prints. Really large prints.

Also if you're shooting people, advantage P30, in terms of recycle rate. P45 and P25 about the same; p25 slightly faster.

Hi Jeff

I know all these MegaPixels are tempting, but do you really need that much for your kind of work? I went through the same process last year and then went with an Aptus 22 instead of the 75.
I do people, like you, and you won't see a difference except at 100% on the screen.
There is no difference visible in prints even at 40x60. ( At least in portraiture, landscape and architecture photography are different) You clients will even see less of a difference.
Going up from your 1Ds Mark II however will make a difference!
Also keep in mind that you are cropping most of the time to get a 4x5 format when you shoot with your 1Ds and you really get only 12-13 MP out of it, when a 22MP digital back is already 4x5.
You will see a big difference comppared to your 1Ds files because of this and because of the increased dynamic range of a Digital Back.
There is no comparison, and believe me, I love Canons.
Save that money and buy some great lenses or get a second body.

Roland

http://www.rolandscarpa.com

I think you may find the P45 too slow for shooting people. If waiting for the ready beep annoys you, I think the choice would be between the P25 and the P45+.

With the upgrade prices you are quoting, you can get a brand new P45 with the free P45+ upgrade and one year chn age of mount option.

you will love the files from either the P25 or P45. Clients will look at you in a new light as well. As much as the 1Ds Mark II kicks but and the new Canon body that comes out will be amazing from speaking to some beta tester. There is still something about a client who will see you shooting MFDB. I agree with Mark that you will not like waiting for the beep. But I belive the new + serious will get rid of that.

Best of Luck!

The + serie is not faster. It is just more buffer, so can shoot endless without stop.
And better LCD, and better noise on higher ISO.



Willow

yeah they are according to the specs. if i remember, p30+ is 1.25 sec per frame, p45+ is 1.5 sec per frame (as fast as the p30 is now).
and they all have larger buffers.

paul

Thanks again for all the replies!

I think I'm going to opt for the P25 at this point since it is all I really need at this point and I will have the option to upgrade later if I choose. It sounds like other than file size the P25 produces just as good a file as the P45.

In terms of the time between shots... well, I'll be shooting on a 501CM so I still need to crank the shutter which takes time... I work much slower with this camera so I don't think the recycle time is much of an issue for me.

Now, I have a couple P25's to choose from. One has 11.5 months on the warranty and 20k shots while the other has 10 months on the warranty and 50k shots. The one with less shots and more warranty is $1000 more. Does the number of shots taken really matter assuming all things being equal. I'm leaning towards saving the $1000.

Thanks again!

Jeff

Jeff,
Go with P25. It is a great back and huge step forward for you anyways. A year from now you will be able to sell your P25 for $10K+ and pick up a P45 with warranty left for under $20K. That makes over $10,000 left in your pocket while ending up with the same back and in the mean time shooting with very capable digital solution. I shot with Phase backs for over 7 years and never had any problems, nor needed any service on them. Advantage of P45 is better high ISO but still not really anywhere close to Canon's nor usable for something that really matters. Also moir presents itself more often but it can be avoided with properly placed lighting.

I know they are faste spec wise, BUT I do not think you will
feel any significant different between 1.25 and 1.5 (P30).
I also looked forward to higher speed and when a PhaseOne top
visited my hometown , I told him so.
His answer was " they are not faster, only bigger buffer".
So I do not think we should exspect any big diff.

Willow

Moire issues are always prevalent in p25
I use p45 and the quarter tones in the files at the top and bottom are unlike any other back
Great files for big prints. It is not as fast as any dslr at any level, best glass is necessary, 50 CFLE, 100mm 120, 150 etc. but its flexibiltiy is there, V mount view cameras as rentals are useful. Lots of archive space is necessary, but large file compression of raws keeps your data space the same as uncompressed files from smaller backs. The tethered performance on the new intel powerbook Macs is very impressive, much faster than my dual 2.3 G5 in studio. I know I am spoiled, but the files are awesome.

I just performed a test with a P25 at on a Hasselblad SWC at a rental facility. I was very impressed with the back. But one of my exterior shots included the side of a brick building and the MOIRE effect was huge. The rental tech said that this is something that can be dealt with in Photoshop. Is that your experience?

On the same day I tested the Leaf Aptus 22, also with a Super Wide C, and was very impressed with that back also, but did not test it with a subject the was likely to produce a Moire pattern, so I don't know how it would have handled it.

I'm interested to know what kinds of lighting techniques help to reduce Moire. But I doubt that it will help with a wide exterior shot.

Are you having much trouble with Moire using a medium format back? If so, how are you dealing with it?

The moire plug-in by Phase works like a charm in 99.99% of the cases. I did a catalog with 460 photos of textile products and only ONE shot was not perfect after using the plug-in. So nothing to worry about.

Jeff,

I don't have a direct P25 / P45 comparison, but I do have several tests on our web site. It will allow you to also take a look at the P30+ files.

http://www.captureintegration.com/tests/comparisons/

Chris Lawery
Capture Integration - Miami/Atlanta
Phase One Dealer of the Year
404-522-7662 office
404-234-5195 cell
877-217-9870 national
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer
chris@captureintegration.com