I understand your frustration, Thierry, in trying to get your point across that Phase backs are not formally part of the Hy6 program. However, there continues to be great uncertainty in some quarters as to just what that means in practical terms. It would be helpful if you could explain whether it will be possible for a customer to buy a Hy6 from Sinar or Leaf without a back that, with an adapter made by Phase or someone else(or perhaps a version of the Phase back configured to fit on the Hy6), would allow the customer to mount the Phase back on the Hy6 and the camera would then work "perfectly". Or, will the camera not recognize any digital back other than a Leaf or Sinar back, just like the H3D won't recognize and operate with any back other than the one sold with the camera? In other words, is the Hy6 going to be an "open" platform like the H2 or "closed" like the H3?
This should be easy to clarify. [G]

Well, I partially agree with you, personally I would be too chicken to test a back on a job and re-creating what a job is like with a test just doesn't work, bit of a catch 22 really. Also, like you say it takes weeks to really work out a back and some problems just won't come up on a test with a rep there. Another problem is that people have been testing leaf backs, buying them and finding that they have the centrefold problem. The demo backs never seem to have the centreline problem it seems. So in this instance testing the back would not be much help to you. I think I remember a (cough cough) certain person of very high credibility having all sorts of problems with the A65 so that rules that out for me at least. Because of this it seems there isn't much point in even putting the effort into testing the leaf backs. Another thing I've learned is that putting any weight into what software will be available in the future is of no use, it often doesn't come. It is all a bit harsh but I really feel for the photographer asking our advice who's getting help form her dad, I'd hate to see her end up with a camera she can't even use for a couple of months while they send her backs untill she gets one that works. She should test backs before buying if she can, but she should also be aware of whats happened to other leaf owners who visit this forum.

I understand everybody's questions and can (partly) answer like following:

- It will certainly be possible to buy a Sinar Hy6 camera body without any digital back, as well from Sinar distributors in all countries other than JP, CN and RU, as well as from F&H in Japan, China and Russia: do not forget that this camera is meant for the use with film as well, and that some customers having their back already might wish to adapt it to this new platform.
- As such, Sinar does not has the upper-hand anymore on what happens thereafter.
- If another back manufacturer than Sinar will be able (and willing) to produce adapter plates with all the features and connection available on this Hy6? I would not allow myself to answer here for other companies. But it has to be known that it needs the command and connections protocols.
- I do not wish, and am not able to answer for Leaf with regards to your first question.
- I am not frutrated (yet!), and am willing to explain whatever can still be explained. I am just thinking that it doesn't need to repeat myself since many has been said and stated and informed by myself on LLF already, since the begining

I hope this is helpful, from the Sinar point of view.

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry

Thierry,


One question remains with me. Allright you do need to know communication protocols with the camera to be able to 'talk' to it to get all functionality between back and camera.

Well, now I am thinking about it, 2 questions (or even several). Will Sinar have some sort of SDK (or other kit) for 3rd parties that want to create those adapters?
I assume, it will always be possible to hook up mechanically and use a sync-cord?

Much more actually will Sinar actively support others to manufacture adapterplates or will it make that particularly difficult? This is a fairly fundamental question and does show where Sinar as a company wants to be going.

Will the "command and connections protocols" for the Hy6 be licensed by Sinar/Jenoptic to Phase or other MFDB makers?

This has already been answered long ago: we have currently no plans to produce or support other back manufacturers for their adapter system.

Best regards,
Thierry

That was not my question and your answer is only part of it. I have read that answer and understand it very well. There are more adapter plate manufacturers than other MFDB manufacturers. I was actually more referring to 3rd party manufacturers that have no link towards any DB manufacturer.

The way you have formulated this answer leads me to believe that Sinar (or the actual IP holder) will not be willing to license/share the communication protocols. This way a 3rd party will have to reverse engineer the protocols which is doable but harder.

In my opinion that disqualifies it from the term open system.

Sorry, if I misread your question: I have to admit that I over-read it!

But I am as clear as for my previous answer: NO, such is currently not planed.

Best regards,
thierry

Don't worry I am not offended. I tend to read too quickly as well.





I am really sorry to hear that. I believe that to be a mistake.

Just got off the Phone with a Phase One rep. He says you are wrong Thierry and that Phase has in fact come to an agreement to support this camera. Perhaps you can double check.

I am baffled......and I am really starting to question the entire MFDB industry and their claims, misinformation and unkept promises.

I think a golden rule is to disregard all promises and speculations about what might be and only consider what is on the market right now and works, I wouldn't even think about the hy6 if I were you.

Sinar & Leaf has invested money, time & marketing their product. They come here instantly & answer all questions & redundant questions...but the frustration on part of loyal Phase owners should go toward the Phase One. To me seems like Phase wants to get a free ride from Hasselblad or Sinar or Leaf, let them invest their money, while Phase One will just keep quite & cash in after everyone's product is out...shame on you Phase one!! & certainly not to S, L & H!!!
How come these questions are not asked to Phase One? How come they don't show up on these forums, unless they just don't offer any support & let existing Phase owners do all their marketing, as they DO have vested (or is it wasted!!) interest in making Phase One succeed!!

I am sorry Shara, in this case I cannot say more than what I have already.

Again, I try to inform with what I know and which are our plans and policy.

I think I better keep quiet from now on, since all can be put in question.

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry

I'm sorry, this is totally nonsense. Phase one is making digital backs compatible with almost every popupar-commonn MF/LF camera and the best software.

Shara,

if you are going into a system for an new gig and yhou want no headaches the only way to go is either PhaseOne or Hasselblad at the moment.

What ever Phase is telling you on the phone is not happening now. Will it happen, most likely. But the question is how long. Work with a good dealer that will allow you a plate/mount exchange within the first 12 months.

If you need something for now go with PhaseOne and then depending on your need you Have Hasselbald H1/2, Mamiya AFDII and Contax. The least expensive ways to get into it is either Mamiya or Contax. The only advantage to H1/2 is the flash sync, which only matters outdoors or if you arte a still life stopping some liquid action.

With the Mamiya you can get a plate for $800 and use it on the RZ with out cables. You can pick up like new RZ gear for a song and a great AFDII kit for the cost of an H1/2 with one lens.

If and When the Hy6 comes out and can be used on PhaseOne you can look at selling the Mamiya gear for very little loss and upgrade your mount to a Rollei.

I am not sure where in the world you are located. But Capture Intergration is an awesome company to deal with and I am sure they can cover you anywhere. Call Chris Lawery there and he will work with getting you going. You can reach these guys at 10pm and they will answer your questions with out fail.

Best of luck

R

why that?
you can put any back on the h1/2, contax or mamiya, isnt it?

about the HY6:
i dont understand all this hype and all this speculations. lets wait and see,- not any healthy person should make a decision in this market for any announcements. sometimes i believe the companies are trying to tell their actual truth, but this industry now is really computer industry and so the devellopement cycles are that fast, that noone knows anything in fact before it is ready, which will be short time before it hits the market and the first users.

anyway its confirmed many times by both sinar+leaf, that they will share the same mount and that you will be able to buy the camera ( at least the hy6 ) without a back and that everybody is free to make a adapter plate. but all that is future. who is buying a back now want to use it now, not "maybe" in one or two years.
so take the advice if you go in a "normal" mf system, go in contax ( my favourite cause i like mine very much) or mamiya ( most economic and great prices and lenses ) or H1/2 ( expansive but standard ),- still there remains also the rollei6008 ( dont think that all back manufactors are supporting it ), i dont know much about the rolleis although stephan is using one.
which back you mount on that cameras is another question, ofcourse it can be a phase back....... but why it HAS to be one is out of my sight.

Welcome to the Real World of MFDBs where you should not believe anything you are told about what cameras, lenses, software, features, and functions will be forthcoming. Buy only on the basis of what exists today and best serves your needs. This bull.... that the Phase rep is feeding you is so typical. If Phase had anything concrete to report on the Hy6 project and its involvement, you can be assured that they would have reported it. Phase is very good at announcing all kinds of things before they happen. Thierry, OTOH, works for the company that owns the Hy6 project and he signs on here under his real name and title. I suppose that you could ask for a letter from the Phase factory(NOT the rep) that new Phase backs will be usable with a Hy6 by say the end of 2007 by the use of an adapter system that Phase will be releasing, with full functionality of the Hy6, and that Phase will give you a full refund on the price of your Phase back if it does not meet its commitment, but I wouldn't waste my breath. You will never get it. If you want a Phase back, buy an existing MF camera that works with it now. An H2, a Mamiya 645 or a used Contax.

I certainly hope you will not keep quiet.

I respect that there are answers you cannot give or do not want to give for whatever reason but that will not refrain me from asking

BTW.

Not everybody is asking these questions because they want to put a Phase on the Hy6.

I also want to know on how many other machines (like Kapturegroup, Silvestri, etc..) I can put a Hy6/Afi back. Naturally I also ask that question to those companies. These companies don't necessarily need the communication protocols but at least do need to be able to make the physical connection, get the sensor in the right place and be able to trigger the back (via sync).

I know I can do this with Sinar as well as Imacon however I do like working with Leaf (so I said it.. it is out.. I like working with Leaf) but I doubt whether I like it so much to buy 2.

As much as I love the idea of the Hy6, it seems to me that, from a professional's perspective, the back end (the digital back and software workflow) is ultimately more important than the front end (the camera). To be clear, I am not a full time pro myself; I do shoot for pay, but I don't have to worry about it paying my mortgage, because I have another job. Accordingly, I have more freedom of choice than those of you who make a living from photography.

Why do I say choosing the back is more important than choosing the camera? Well, it seems to me that most modern medium format cameras will do largely the same thing (capture light) with marginally varying degrees of sophistication or quality. E.g., yes, Schneider lenses are fabulous and I love them, but will the client really be able to tell (especially after post-processing) whether you shot the job with a Schneider, Mamiya, or Zeiss lens? Unlikely. Yes, WE as photographers might be able to tell the difference, but the fact is that, in my experience, even very sophisticated clients are not as critical of the technical differences between cameras as we are.

Contrast that with potential differences amongst the backs. Assume that Back A is very stable, doesn't crash when shooting, and allows you to process the files quickly and with great quality. Back B, on the other hand, tends to crash a lot, displays some technical defects in the file itself, and has to be processed thru slow and clunky software. The client WILL know if there's a big line running down the center of the image, or if the camera fails when shooting, or if the image is unusable because it had to be shot at dusk with existing light and the back's high ISO performance creates too much noise, or if it takes you 3 days rather than the 1 day you promised to get the proofs done, etc.

Don't get me wrong: I'm quite the gear hound and really really really want to be able to use my P30 on the Hy6. But, as much as I'd like to have a Hy6, I'm NOT going to buy a different back for it just to get the use of that camera. More specifically, I'm not going to buy a back that doesn't fit my needs as well; if Leaf or Sinar come out with a back (and software) that works as well as my P30 does for me currently, then sure, I'd switch, but that would be because of the back, not the camera.

So, if the Hy6 (or any other camera) does something that is absolutely critical to your work that you cannot get with another camera, then go for it. (E.g., if fast flash sync is really crucial, you need the leaf shutter lenses of a Hy6, Rollei 6008, or a Hassy). Otherwise, pick the back you need, then figure out what cameras will work with it.

so you might as well ask thierry and yair for the same thing and a refund if the Hy6 does in fact support phase backs by a certain time!
the bottom line is that the camera isn't even shipping yet...we are all hoping it will..it will accept schneider lenses, there will be new lenses coming out....leaf and sinar backs will be supported right away....these are the things we know...the time frame for all this is the next 6-8 months....a lot of things can happen in the meantime and after...and we just don't know yet and i would not believe any rep or a even signed piece of paper...we can draw our own conclusions from what has happened in the past and existing products....from that i truly believe without a doubt that someone, somewhere will make a phase adapter for the camera....

either way for a professional working today none of this really makes any sense...i can't hope to be able to shoot with a future product in nov.2007!?!?
unless of course someone wants a sinar back, great, get the 6008, switch to Hy6 when it ships....if someone wants a leaf back, you will have to wait (and be without a camera for a couple of months) or buy a leaf back for H1/2, mamiya, contax and switch mounts when the AFi ships (or maybe leaf will prvide a tade in deal of some kind?).....if someone wants a phase back, wait a little longer or get a H1/2, mamiya, contax and switch mounts when the adapter or whatever comes out....but you are taking a chance that there will never be an adapter....

same here....i switched from a 6008 with P20 to mamiya 645 and RZ with P30...i looked at all the backs..the emotion was very close, but in the end the P30 was the best choice for me....as hard as it was to give up my schneider glass....i really want the Hy6 to accept phase backs, and i think it can really only succeed if it does....you can't win in this market if you start at 0% (Hy6) or 1%(6008, don't know the actual percentage, but i am pretty sure it is less) and cut out 50% of your target group....even if it is not about winning, i think it would be hard to stay alive....

choose your back, test them all, maybe you are happy with the H system! figure out a workflow....

I totally agree.

Regards
Danijela

The basic flaw in your thinking is that Sinar and Leaf(who bankrolled the Hy6 project and essentially own it) don't want to win the "battle" and become successful camera distributors by selling lots of cameras and lenses for Phase back owners. They really have no interest in selling cameras to Phase owners. Period. End of story. Thierry and Yair have basically repeated this over and over again. The only issue is how difficult they will make it for Phase owners to mount a Phase back on a Hy6. They want to win the "war" by selling more digital backs. If Sinar now has 5% of the MFDB market today and still has the same 5% after the introduction of the Hy6, do you think they would feel that the Hy6 venture was a success because they were selling a bunch of cameras to Phase owners to help Phase compete with them and Hasselblad?
The only way I see this changing is if their strategy for capturing market share collapses. Then, they may just sell the whole Hy6 venture and their MFDB businesses to Phase and walk away, leaving Phase and Hassy to fight it out.

And you think the H/Phaseone - 6008/Phaseone owners will buy a new hy6 and a new DB too? Just like that? I think this "battle" is already lost.... and the cameras are not even out...
I think maybe Sinar is missing the Hasselblad still have an H1/H2 which are open systems. You can put anything on them inclusive sinar/leaf. And Rollei 6008/Contax/mamiya are still there...

Best Regards

with no disrespect to either thierry or yair: as far as i am concerned they can tattoo "no phase on Hy6" on their lower backs...does not mean a thing....they are ding the same thing the phase reps do...telling their customers what is in the best interest of their companies....i have heard form my ep and my dealer that phase will be supported....some one else in this thread has as well...does that make a difference? no..i won't believe it until i see it....or i still haven't seen it in 2 years from now....i would not plan on it either way...i chose phase, (i am still hoping for the Hy6) and i shoot mamiya because it works NOW....for me....

leaf does not own the Hy6...rollei was working on it long before leaf or sinar were interested....

sinar obviously does not care about marketshare at all...look at the M....

I guess this question does not really concern me, and Leaf should give answer here.

However, as for the first part of your question: there is NO Hy6 Back, and all exisiting and future Sinarbacks can and will be able to be mounted on any exisitng camera platform (V-Mount) and if there is no mechanical impossibility.

Best regards,
Thierry

neither Sinar nor Leaf, nor even Rollei (read Franke & Heidecke) own the Hy6 project: it is Jenoptik

Thierry

Is Jenoptik the owner of Sinar, Leaf or Rollei?

Regards
Danijela

Dear Danijela,

Jenoptik Germany is owner of Sinar Switzerland.

Best regards,
Thierry

So the SINAR will Live, Thank you

Regards
Danijela