Here are some comparison images of the Schneider 24XL, Rodestock 28HR and the 35XL made recently.

http://homepage.mac.com/archarazzi/fc1/lens/L35V+17.jpg

http://homepage.mac.com/archarazzi/fc1/lens/L28V+10.jpg

http://homepage.mac.com/archarazzi/fc1/lens/L24V+0.jpg

Look carefully at the edges of the Rodenstock 28HR. A lot of distortion is visible.

who made that shots?
i work on a nearly daily base with that HR lenses in architecture and i react hysteric to distortion. if the 28HR shows some distortion it remains under 1% with symmetric barreling. attached another image shot with the 28hr.

Click to view attachment

I do not defend nor criticize, I look and call it as I see it. If I take your image and move it into Photoshop and apply the index lines, the left side of your image shows that the vertical wall is bowed.

All three of the images I posted are taken in the same spot with or without rise as noted. These test images show that the 28HR (In this test shoot) exhibited the most amount of distorsion.

These images were not adjusted in Photoshop at all except to add the index lines.

It is what it is. I hope some find them useful as a reference, nothing more, nothing less.

Rainer,

It appears your sample has very little shift, and so it only shows a little pincushion in the upper left. Is there a chance you have any shots like the .mac samples which show a larger shift (like would be necessary for shooting a High Rise building)?

Eric

i already had posted that sample in a earlier post. its shifted to the ends and stitched together.
not the 28/35HR nor the 24/35xl are free from distortion, but in my work i never had the case that i ended up with unmanageable files for that reason.
Click to view attachment

Mkravit,

I think all Rainer is asking is the source of these images....
Did you perform this test? Or is it a test that someone else performed and you are just posting the results?

regards

I am the source of posting the image.

exactly thats what i was asking, ok thats great that you did it yourself- i am sceptic for second hand infos.
some detail: the shot with the 28Hr the camera is not put horizontally correct which increases the visual distortion effect in the comparation much. the schneider shots are done in straight positions.
( also it seems that the camera was put closer to the object after the 24xl shot , maybe i am wrong herein ).
what astonish me is the strong barreling in the upper horizontal line, the vertical can be in parts explained from the slightly bevelled camera stand. at all it seems too much for that lense.
maybe sample variations? no idea about but i listened from a friend that this can happen in terms of distortion also,- but in this price class sure it should not.

about my first shot: i dont remember the shift settings exatly, but i believe the lense was moved to the left ( not so little, otherwise the elevator would be much more in the frame ) and some mm down.

see the vertical line here, also some barreling at the top line-but i am not sure if this is caused by constructtion:

shifted up and left.


Click to view attachment

The chairs on the left side appear to tilt very slightly to the right, no?

We are dealing with lenses and cameras, albiet very expensive ones, however, I am not sure that there is any accessible lens that is absolutely free of distortion.

With that said, and for my use, I have basically settled on my 24XL, 35XL and 47XL, something between the 24 and 35 would be great but the 28HR is too expensive for what it is, especially in light of these results.

BTW, with respect to the images, the camera and tripod remained stationary.

Michael K,

Every second opinion is very important & appreciated, especially when comparing lenses of such high standard.

It is very good idea that you started this thread, perhaps you could call it/or start one for the future reference Performance of Scheider/Rodenstock LF Digital Lenses or something in that regard, where we can put the performance of all our lenses on display. Because as soon I get my lenses, I will try to do my test and post my experience for the record. I must admit 28HR looks a bit awkward for my taste. Although looking at Ranier's images I could not see nothing of the sort, perhaps images posted by Rainer were shot horizontally not vertically and that could be the reason why I missed to realize hidden distortion.

Regards
Danijela

Ranier,

When I downloaded your image to add index grid lines I accidentally pushed the levels a bit. I think there may be centerfold in yoru image.

Can you check it out and see what you find. I also see some magenta and cyans splotches of color cast. I wonder if the Brumbaer program is "painting" the centerfold like a smudge tool so that it is not visible when the image is at normal levels?

definitive nothing what has to do with centerfold effects.
its a 10 or 20 seconds exposure and i removed color casts partially, so not at the same level at the paintings. dont you think you are going to peep a little bit pixels?
what you call raising up the levels "accidently" a little bit appears if you raise the shadow slider in the level window in photoshop from level 0 to level 185 and increase afterwards the saturation, - all that in a jpeg with quality7. very closed to practical needs isnt it? further i think its a nearly spectacular good result for an longtime interior shot to hold its color integrity so well if a file is in such a way abused.

see, i did exactly the same setting apply to your 24xl image. very informative also.... isnt it?

Click to view attachment

Touche, but seriously Ranier, the problems with the MFDB's are across the spectrum. None of them is perfect, none work 100% as advertised, all are still in their infancy.

The amazing thing is how good Schneider and Rodenstock have actually made their digital lenses. I think that eventually the issues with color cast and distortion and centerfold will be solved through firmware and to a lesser extent software. The lens manufacturers will begin to do things that were never even considered possible with optical design.

Hi Ranier,

I highly enjoy positive spirit and the joke about it, but seriously what is going on in the middle of that image, you could see the split is centered but you don't see the line, it appears as Michael said like it was painted and to me it looks like it was altered in one or the other way.

We pay the money, companies make us pay even more then we should, so why walk backwards. When I get my lenses Rodenstock or Schneider perhaps even both, I would like to participate and contribute to this thread or perhaps the new one dedicated to LF digital Lenses with what ever results I have, on every Lens & Camera I own, otherwise If we all walk backwards, we may start to like it and that could be the very end of it.

I think the more we are relaxed about it the more people will participate. Otherwise
people like to read when they feel the tension is building up, but they rarely participate.

Let's be constructive about it, so that others too feel comfortable participating.

I hope you agree.

Regards
Danijela

i agree 100%.
we just can hope that the things will become better and that the companies not will go further forcing themselves to compete with products which are not completely ready for selling. after these products are out they spend some weeks or months correcting the issues ( we have found after buying ), they find solutions for some of these issues or they are not able to do so and create workarounds or simply nothing happens except promises for later fw updates and so on.... and than, soon, they are involved with all energy in the next generation of backs, ..... beeing pressed by their competitors and by us photographers to bring the next generation in the market as soon as possible. this happened last time after the surprising announcement of the p45. all other competitiors have had to follow fast....... and so it will go on probably with the next generation, after all have made this *.+ upgrades as interlude.

in the time when the announcement of the p45 and the following a75 and e75 was made, nearly all of us agreed that we professional photographers dont want higher resolution, we want mature products. but after few weeks this was forgotten and now some speak from 22mp sensors as "old" stuff, although nearly no one - me included- really need the 33 and 39mp resolution. the 22mp backs have brought excellent results if used well.
i sometimes mix in productions my canon 5d with e75 shots and print out all that with my epson7800 at A1. if i put my nose on the print i can see a difference, thats true...... i still have the 100% opinion that a good photographer will deliver great results with any of the existing mf backs and ofcourse he will not f*up any shot just for using schneider or rodenstock lenses.... he will know its limitations and respecting their shortcomings. 4x5" filmwork has had so many limits, if you did not respected them you simply delivered horrible chromes. so it is now also.

the cf issue is not a line which appears and which could be "smeared out". it is that the 6 zones of the sensor have a sligtly different amplitude of their signals. what becomes mostly visible is this line in the horizontal center, but in fact it is not a line, simply one half of the image is a little bit darker than the other.
brumbaers tool does not smear over that stitch zone... it adjusts the levels so finally all these six zones match the same brightness. if it would "smear" over these stitches you should see six of them afterwards in these levels-raised-up image.
anyway, not anything which becomes visible after raising up the shadows so heavy is saying anything, cause its simply way too much of manipulation....

At A1, I am sorry but I just can't believe that 5D or any other 35mm will hold
their own compared to bigger chip+more resolution/detail of e75,H3D,a75,P45. Perhaps you think A4? but even A4 could be argued.


Regards
Danijela

i said A1... and if you put your nose closed to them it becomes obvious, but hardly from viewing distances more than a half meter. although..... i know also why i am working with my mf gear usually,- but this has many reasons and resolution is not in the first line herein.

many things depend on how the images are treated in postpro, a.e. i add grain on lower resolution images as from the 5d. its incredible how well can look images out of these camera if treated well.
you know my style of shooting, believe me that my requirements for prints are anything else than substandard ....

Hi Ranier,

My name is Shara Haddad.

I am trying to decide between a Sinar or Leaf digital back for my Hasselblad V system. I will also consider buying a new view cam such as new Horseman digital version. Any suggestions or comments to help me.

Who has the best image quality?

I see your name in a lot of threads and think you are pretty experienced in this matter.

Thanks
Shara Haddad

hi shara,
i dont want to burn my fingers anymore in saying that one system is "the best", cause its
1. somehow subjective and
2. depends too much of the indivdual shooting style.
so everyone knows his system best and also there is a human tendency to justify such huge investments.
i would say which is best depends at first on the subjects you want too shoot. so for fashion or for longtime exposures i would prefer another back than for architecture
. as you easily can see, in this treat also, we fight us with arguments just to come to the result that many of these lenses and backs we are talking about can make stunning results......
its for sure not easy to decide where to jump in. even i dont advise to rent gear, cause the learning curve is too big with each tool, you just will scratch the surface and so it remains a decision which is not founded on a serious "quality" comparation.
even less i would suggest to let you demonstrate the gear by some dists of the company, probably noone will tell you the true shortcomings of their products, these guys want to sell you something not to chase you away...

i can tell you for me... and for my way to work, my emotion sinar backs are doing a very good job, but till i could say that it was not an easy way also.
my gottschalt camera is very special but surely for architecture its very usefull, but an alpa or cambo will do it also, maybe with some features less or more..... but its possible to make great images with them as well ( as with my ricoh gr8 too ).

what amazes me is that so many here have so high illusions either in the H3 or in the AVI/HY6.
i bought some weeks ago a contax 645 camera together with 5 excellent zeiss lenses, waistlevel and prism finder, battery grip, film and pola backs ( which i probably never will use ) for around $5500 all together. thats a lot of money saved in comparation to the new mf system cameras and i cant see what they should do better ( maybe aside from the "sw corrected" 28mm hassy lense ).



in general i think it might be impossible to go in a shop, to pay $ 50.000,-- and to come out with a system which works flawless and easy. digital mf does not work in this way. these backs are not "consumer" products, they act a little bit as racing cars, which means it can be pretty uncomfortable to use them for driving to the shopping center,- and if you dont know how to use these cars they even will not move you 1 meter forward,- but ofcourse they can be fast in the right hands.
you will know more ( or be much more confused ) after reading some of the longer treads here in these forum.....

Dear Michael,

This has nothing to do with "centerfold" effect: please go back to earlier treads and samples of files, as well as the explanations posted.

Best regards,
Thierry

As far as I am concerned you are right, it depends on the post-production. With regards to the images without heavy post-production and compositing applied, I bet you, I can tell a difference from a half a meter on A1. I was challenged on weighing the approximate diamond carat across the table many times and I learned to be right or very close every time. A4 from half a meter is a little small and difficult I admit. So, I agree that you would have to put your nose to smell the difference. On A1, not a problem for me. However, it has to be done on the spot no tricks.

Regards
Danijela

Thierry,

I am in the market for a new digital back. My father is providing the funds for my expansion into the digital market. I have a major gig (atleast major for me) that requires this new equipment.

If this problem is not infact a remnant of the a painted out centerfold, then can you eplain what it is?

I am considering Leaf, Sinar and possibly Phase. I need to exhaust all research by Friday and make a decision.

Thanks
Shara Haddad

MKravit

Is it as simple as you have stated?

When I saw the files you posted, my jaw dropped...I could not believe the distortion of the 28HR, particularly since it costs over 5k. Then, by inference, I wondered how a photographer like Rainer would work with such an inferior lens and simultaneously speak so highly of the 28HR.........I thought he is a darn good shooter if he can work with that lens to produce images that are on his"uniquely" designed web site.

I did a little research (see attachment) and found the image circle to be 70mm with recommendations of 6mm rise on a horizontal image and 5mm rise on a vertical image.....no wonder the distortion was exagerated: 10mm is 200% of the manufacturer's specification.
On the other hand, the Schneider 35xl has a 90mm image circle with 19mm rise on a horizontal image and 17mm rise on a vertical image.

So the Schneider is tested @100% of recommended movement and the Rodenstock @ 200%......
of course it is going to exhibit failure.

I am glad you posted these images as it adds to the general body of knowledge......but for architectural shooters when you need a 24mm lens a 28 won't do and vice versa.

By the way your earlier post was not clear as to if you shot this test ( i know you said you were the source of the post). Do you have this shot taken with the Rodenstock 28mm with less movement applied (5 or 8mm by chance) ?

thank you for posting these images

regards

Michael,

Knowing that you have the 28mm for your H3D did you by any chance expose the
same test with this lens and compare the results with the optical corrections applied
from within Flexcolor ?

If so,were the results comparable?

Mark

Mark,

Unfortunately no, I did not have the HCD 28 at the time we shot the above images.

For Prakash,
The 28HR is a friends lens, and yes we were together.

The purpose of the test was to compare the 24Digitar and the 28HR and 35Digitar. We were looking for something in the middle between the 24 and 35. And, since rise is a major consideration with 10mm being very common in our work we tested it in this manner. As you can see the top edges of the image exhibit vignetting, and severe distortion. As a result we found that the 28HR would not satisfactorily meet our needs.

We tried to keep apprximately the same building height in the frame. Hence the 24 has no rise, the 28HR has 10mm rise and the 35 has 17mm rise. Again, we were testing for our own situation and needs and the result was although the 28HR is a wonderful lens, the distortion at even 10mm rise is unacceptable.

So please understand that this is solely an exercise to determine the applicability of this lens for my own needs based on the type of work I do.

I know that we shot the 28HR with less rise but I don't know if we kept those files.

So yes you are correct in your observations about percentage of rise and comparing the lenses. However, shooting this building served to ascertain how we would work in real world conditions.

Michael

I have those 3 schneider digitars (24,35,47) but am also interested in the 28mm.

Did you do any tests with the lens wide open?

Is there a difference in image quality @ 100% say at the pergola in your test images of the 28 vs the 35?

At what point does the sharpness degrade on the 28mm image?

regards

Att: Michael K

Again, I have to admit H3D 39 sound attractive to me, in addition to other H3D features I can compare the 28HR and HC28mm too while I wait for other platforms to reach the market if and when? eventually, and I can't do that with e75/a75/P45.

Is HC28mm AF or not?

Where did you buy your system from? I was going to contact Steve Hendrix but still
I am waiting for Before & After images of HC28.

It would help if you let me know deal you got on H3D, you can send it via PM if not comfortable here.

Regards
Danijela

Not to add another lens into the works, but why not! Its strange the 60mm schneider and 60 HR from Rodenstock seem to have smaller image circles compared to other lenses. The Schneider charts shows 0mm rise and fall and the Rodenstock only shows around 6mm rise. The 35xl and 47xl both have plenty of rise and fall?




rainer, I am not sure how you can get so much shift from a lens that has the same image circle as the 28HR?

60HR image Circle

In a perfect world I would like to see Schneider come out with a 30mm lens with at least 10mm shift

Dear Shara,

thanks for your question.

Please read my PM to you, since I wish to continue this discussion out of the heat of controversy.

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry

i just said it several times. no problem to shift the 60HR 20 - 25mm without ANY vignetting.
the rodenstock image circles are very conservative claimed. the 28+35HR shift both the same. 10-12mm without visible vignetting.

although i have not made any line tests with the lenses, i react hyper sensitive to distortion. if there is a lense in my bag which shows much...... i sell it the next day. i think i have not more to say about than i already did, together with the images i posted.

Dear Michael,

could you please confirm that the 28mm lens you used for your test is a Sinaron Digital 4.5/28mm HR? And on which mount/platform?

If this is the case, then I would strongly suggest to your friend to exchange it: we do have very strict quality controls and I have myself with my work with this lens never experienced such as you.

pls. feedback.

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry

Seriously now, I am not a lens testing agency.

My intention was to just see how the lens performed for distortion. Seeing that it didn't perform as we had hoped, we simply weren't that interested in taking the tests too much further.

I did find additional images where the 28HR had differing amounts of rise. I will post those as soon as I have some time.

My system came from Steve Hendrix.
The 28HCD is in fact an auto focus lens.

I suggest that you contact Steve Hendrix. Steve is one of the most concerned, diligent and honest sales guys I know or have met. He can answer yur questions, get you test images and answer your questions and concerns. And he stands behind his products.

I will PM you with the financial information.
you seem like a very nice person, andt like most women I know, a chatty ;-)

Confirmed, "V" mount.

what do you mean with "V" mount?

Is there Sinar Sinaron Digital 28mm/HR engraved on this lens?

Thanks to be as precise as possible: I wish to sort this out and to get confirmation that we are speaking about the same lens which is in question, namely the Sinar Sinaron Digital HR 4.5/28mm.

Thanks for any information to enable me to check and sort out the problem.

Thierry

Click to view attachment

The lens is from Calument and is the Rodenstock Apo Sironar Digital HR28.

Here are a few more images taken with the HR28 with various amounts of rise.

cant see any problems with them, except that you seem to have a tendency not to level the camera straight, which gives a strange perspective, esp. if you overcorrect the perspectives, what you do in this way of levelling.

Thanks for your information!

In this case you should give this lens back: it is certainly not up to the normal results you can get with it.

All the best,
Thierry

Thierry,

The Sinar dealer I was speaking with told me that a VERY large number of the Sinar HR28 lenses were produced with severe defects and were destroyed by Sinar. This concerns me, can you elaborate and either confirm or dispell this issue.

Thanks
Shara Haddad

PS. Thanks for the Private Email and BTW, I spoke with Mkravit by telephone, he was very helpful and really did not exhibit any political agenda as you suggested. I think that the images posted are very helpful and will go a long way in helping me make a decision.

What I think is political is the way people have attacked the him for posting these images. IMO it is quite obvious that there is an overwhelming bias toward Sinar. I am trying to determine which camera back to buy and most people have been helpful.

I want the truth about these backs and lenses. I don;t want sugar coated Madison Avenue hype. I can handle the truth and need it to make my decision. I know Danijela feels the same.

Dear Shara,

I would be glad to know the name of this "Sinar Dealer" who told you such things.
It is of course absolutely wrong.

At first, we do not and never get such lenses in huge quantities: you can imagine that at this price there are not hundreds sold. No, we do get such lenses in bunches of 10 at the very maximum. Those lenses are then tested with OUR own specifications and released ONLY if they meet this specifications. If not, they are sent back.

If we would have VERY large numbers of these or any other lenses with defects, we would certainly not destroy them, but send them back to the manufacturer.

So I would really be glad to get the name of this dealer (as PM) to be able to give him right information as how it excatly works when it comes to lens quality and quality controls.

Thanks Shara and best regards,
Thierry

i just uploaded a serial of shots with different shift settings up to the maximum shift, made with the 28/35/60HR lenses with some ugly hotel closed to my spanish home, i just took them 1 hour before.
they are not "distortion-free" and maybe the schneider pendants perform a tick better here ,- it would be interesting to see that 1:1 ( if they do they do it for the price of other shortcomings ).
i am working now nearly one year with these lenses and i didnt had any image were i had serious dist. problems..... ( but i have to admit that i am skilled in postpro ) .

i stopped the time of changing the adapter of the emotion : 1min 50sec.
shift without vignetation, taken at f11 ( horizontal ):

with 28+35HR lense: 13mm
with 60HR : 22mm

you can get the files here:

www.tangential.de/download/lenstest.zip

What!

Thierry, what is up with that?

You dodn't know me, I have never spoken with you and where do you come off accusing me of having a political agenda. Some people have asked if anyone had images from the 28HR. I did, so I posted them.

I take this accusation very seriously. Shara was upset about what you said and forwarded me the email. I am shocked that you would so and say such things. I may consider fowarding your statements to Sinar, I want to think about it.

Ranier,

I'm using the levels in the camera.
If I was over levelleing, the 35xl would be out as well...

The 28 looks fine with everything traveling parallel until about two thirds of the way up when if starts to splay out. That's why I put the lines there.

no, just the 28hr are overlevelled. but anyway.... now offense about that- fast tests are done fast, i know that. did you donwload my files?

Rehnniar, I just wanted to thank you for posting the samples of the 60HR. I can definitely see at +15mm shift you start to have issues. I am probably going to go ahead and get the 60hr since I need a lens in that range or maybe I should just get my 58xl fitted for the Cambo Wide DS? lots to think about.