Hello MFBer's.

Is $10,500.00 a good price for the Imacon132C 22 megapixel back with 1500 exposes on it. It has no warranty and is in good physcial appearance. Any feedback on this would be appreciated. I will be using it on a Mamiya 645 Pro camera.

Thanks,
db

I paid a similar amount for mine a year ago with considerably more exposures on it . It was a great deal and has worked out very well . Not sure about the image tank - sometimes its a pain but sometimes I'm glad its there and sure is quicker than downloading a bunch of cards at the end of the day.
I like flexcolour but it took a while to learn and the documentation is very poor.
Mine is on a hasselblad v series . my one caveat is to get a shim kit and spend some time zeroing the focus to your particular camera and check the back is not backfocussing - what a difference it made in overall sharpness of the images. I suspect digital to be more demanding on quality control tolerances of camera manufacture than film is.

SeanFS,

Could you tell how long it took you to get the sharpness you where looking for with the shim kit and how long it took you to master the Flexcolor software. I am now shooting a editorial project now which will last for two months and don't have a lot of time to get familar with new gear. Is it possible to become like a "master of the universe" with this setup within a two week period.
I currently am very comfortable shooting with my D2X and Kodak SLRn. I am currently using Aperture to download and color correct files and final tweaking is done in photoshop. I was told by a very knowledgable MFB dealer last night that it might take 30 to 90 days to become one with the camera and software. That is a very long time for me and most likely I cannot afford to spend that much time learning new software and camera/back fundamental's on this current editorial project.

Best,
db

I've got an Imacon 384C, which is of the same generation as the 132C. $10.5K is a fair market value price. In terms of learning the back and the software, it took me a week to get proficient enough for assignments (I like the Flexcolor interface and am using V4.6). I've had the back for six months now and still learn a thing or two now and then. As far as the shims and back-focus issue, I haven't encountered that with the Mamiya 645AFD.

Here another happy 132c user! Mine is on a Rollei 6008i.
Does the price include the i-adapter for your Mamiya?

Wim

Wim.

No, that price does not include the $650.00 I-adapter which is a bummer. My thinking on this digital back is its worth about $7500.00 to $8500.00 with a adapter. Most likely wishful thinking on my part. The Nikon D3 and canon's megapixel camera should be out around December 07 and I think it will give the 18 to 22 MFB's some serious competition dollar for dollar spent.


db

I think the back is worth it, even with the additional price of the adapter. That is, if you like MF anyway. The shooting experience of a digital back and mf camera really is different from a dSLR, and there is so much more than pixel count.

What was the camera you liked most in the film days?

it seems like a fair price....

about the "soon to be announced but not shipping in numbers before 2008 DSLRs": i seriously doubt they will be serious competition for this or DMFbacks in its category....even if they are 22mpix (they probably will be), even if they are 16bit (i doubt that) the pixels will be smaller...so a 100 asa comparison will go in the imacon's favor...
if you need a more flexible (DSLR like) solution (fast shooting, high asa,....), the imacon will probably not be the right solution for you....there are other things out there...a P21 is in the same price range new, the P30 is a great back for the money but costs more.....

like wim asked: which camera system do you like? what do you need to shoot? how do you shoot? do you need a system now or are you simply getting a good deal right now that might get you started in the wrong direction and you will need to spend more in 8 months because there are some aspects to your work that his back isn't made for?

if you have been shooting digital and know your way around software, i would not worry about a steep learning curve.....flexcolor is very straightforward, C1 is harder to "wrap your head around" because of the folderstrucure that takes a little getting used to....the leaf V8 works, stay away from V10 (still beta after all these years?) ....but LR works with all these files anyway.....

For the editorial work I do now, a D2X is overkill, I use to shoot 645, 6 x7 and a ocassional 4x5 for cover stories. I have not shot a roll of film in four years be it 35mm or 120 size. Last April I shot 56 pieces of fine art on 4x5 transparency film. Man was I blown away by the sheer sharpness and color of the fuji provia IIIF film, the AD could not tell the difference between the drum scanned 4x5's and the Kodak SLRn files that I also shot. I have forgotten what high quality film looked like and I was starting to look again for the digital equalivent, that's when I started looking at MFD backs seriously. I was stuned by the cost of the hardware and the lack of manufactures for my existing gear. My first digital camera that I bought had a life span of two years before the sensor when bad and I swore that if I couldn't paid for it in a year and a half it was a poor investment. That is why I am looking at used 2nd generation MFD backs in the $5000.00 to $10,000 range, I believe they will deliver the most bang for the buck and should at least have a life span of 1 1/2 years before they give up the ghost or become so slow in the workflow process.
What I have found in the searching process is that most clients can't tell the difference between a six mega pixel file and a 4x5 transparency drum scanned file at A4 size , you have to point the differences out to them. Art directors might be a different animal but most graphic designers, editors etc, etc just dont see the diffence or are willing to pay for the differnce in quality and cost. That also goes for John Q. Public too. Am I just another cheap ass photographer, yea maybe!!!! I just like to find bargains and I know there out there if I look hard enough and are patience.

Thanks everyone for your advice and opinions.

db

Wim
My 1st Medium format was a mamiya 220f, then a Bronica S2A. I had Nikkors lens 40mm,50mm, 75mm, 135mm and 200mm. Then came a Hasselblad 500cm and 50mm 80mm 150mm. Next was a Mamiya RB67Pro-S with 50mm, 65mm, 90mm, 127mm 150mmSF, 180mm and 250mm which I still have. Then I bought a Mamiya Super 645, ProTL with 35mm, 45mm 55mmLS, 80mmLS, 80mmf1.9, 110mm, 150mm and 300mm and last a Cambo Master PC 4x5 with 65mm, 75mm, 90mm 115mm, 135mm, 210mm apo lens. Nikon 35mm camera and lenses

My favorite medium format camera was the Bronica S2A loved the square format and the Nikkor lenses. Next favorite is the RB67pro-s then the 645 Mamiya.

db

MF backs will most likely not fail...ever....no moving parts, so they won't wear out....there might be some repairs of some kind, but other then that these thing will last forever....
if oyu are concerned about "outdated", you should look for a back that fits your workflow...e.g.: for editorial work i would say it needs to be able to do about 45 shots/min, at least up to 400asa, resolution is less of an issue, superwide probably as well, tethered support should be solid for cover shots or studio set-ups.....
the perfect backs for this would be the P20 or P21, both will produce files that are far superiour to DSLR files, the P20 is 8000 new and don't forget that once you are with one back manufacturer you can always trade up.....i can tell you that i had the P20 and got more trade in then what i paid for it when i got my P30....
i would also strongly recommend finding a local dealer to start out, they will be happy to hold your hand and not only get you a back to start out, but also help you trade up and so on...it is also nice to have someone to call right away and maybe get a back-up within hours in case somehting does go wrong (we all know how that goes....)
once oyu have a back that fits your workflow, (shoots faster then your flashes recycle anyway,....) it won't get outdated...there will be better ones coming along, but you don't have to step up.....
if you shoot editorial you should be able to pass a rental fee on to your clients anyway and with that you will actually make money by renting out your back within 1-2 years....all the time shooting for free for yourself....and then trading it in (or selling it on ebay)....

i used to shoot rollei 6008 with the P20, now it is mamiya 645afd and RZ with the P30...works perfectly....faster shooting with the 645, studio/tripod with the RZ....the P30 rotates on the RZ

Thanks for the info pss,

My current clients are publications and ad campaigns for major universities with a occasional national consumer/trade publication. There is a wide differnce in pay scale between the two and the pressure level and turnaround time is just as wide, so I perfer the University clients to the national clients. I rarely shoot higher than ISO 200 and most things are lit by strobe. Phase is most likely the best at High ISO like canon, but that is not how I shoot and most people hire me because of my ability to deliver high impact graphic images of boring academia subject matter. A MFD camera and back would create a wider seperation between me and my competitors as the use mostily 6 and 10 mega pixel DSLR's. The P30 is more digital back than I need at this time and the best price I have seen is $16,000, which would bust my budjet. I will most likely within the next two to three years upgrade to the Mamiya AFDII or a Leaf/Sinar Camera solution, but for now I would like to at least wear out my Mamiya pro tl body and lenses on a 22 megapixel back.

Best,
db

Hi David,

I had to do a significant editorial food shoot before had even written out the cheque ( and was just "testing" the back) so I totally appreciate where you are coming from.

It doesn't take long and instructions are in the shim kit. The shims sit behind the i - adaptor.I did the settings at more than the recommended distance as I thought it would give an even closer tolerance , which seems to be the case . At about 6 meters. The back was focussing about a metre beyond where the camera was at that distance. By checking on the computer as I tried different shots and added shims I got that down to about 10 cm . I can get closer with another shim but it really hasn't troubled me since so I haven't bothered. The whole process took about three hours. Mostly me worrying about getting the screw sequence for the i-adaptor correct.

Flexcolour is not too bad , most of it is self explanatory but the modify button is far more than it appears in that you are able to apply settings to groups of files and its not that obvious how it works . That is where I had the most significant trouble as it also covers file renaming - it seems obvious now but I didn't even know where it might be fr a while. - If you are familiar with Kodak Photodesk then it works in a similar fashion - Photodesk updates all selected files but Flexcolour needs to have the modify button pushed and all the aspects of the file selected amd ticked off in its dialogue box.
I went to this from a Kodak 14nx - something I miss with as all the cameras I use is the simplicity of the Kodak software. I now use a 1ds2 through phase one software as well and while the colour and results are good, it can drive me batty with its clumsy folder selection process the noise reduction and sharpening are not good. Thank fully Flexcolour isn't as difficult as that.
I was able to use flexcolour straight away for reasonable results but it does offer some very fine and specific control that takes a while to get to know - the unsharp mask is the best I have come across yet, it took me a while to appreciate it but basic settings went ok before that.

I'm always finding something new in the software packages I use that perhaps I didn't notice before as I was just too busy - as long as the final tiffs or jpegs are of a high standard then I don't worry too much , but its great to work out the time saving features - you can have a life again.

SeanFS,

Wow, thanks a lot for your candor on the Imacon and flexcolor. I was having second doubt's about the 132c back but now I believe I am ready to commit to a MFB solution.

Best,
db

I should add that I was attracted by the Imacon to begin with as I will probably change to the H system sometime in the future and the i adaptor system seemed like a good option in that regard - I was on the verge of buying new and saved about half the cost so I have some change for that now. All other MFDB' s are camera specific as far as I know. It has worked so well with the V system I'm not really in a hurry to change.
The results have been outstanding - 16 bit capture really can make quite a difference in the potential output of the file and particularly in control of highlights - although it is still possible to blow them. Hasselblad has since updated the firmware so 200asa is quite viable as the asa settings were not set at the same sensitivity as film, and Imacon 50 asa (eg) was more like 80 - 100, It never would match my light meter.
The audio warning for under/over exposure is one feature I really appreciate. If I can' t look at the screen because of sunlight conditions or camera position I know from the series of warning beeps that I still have a useable capture - I only wonder that Canon and Nikon haven' t put a feature like this in as they have done for auto focus

david....i think you should definitely go the DMF route...i am just trying to point out to you that you have several options....all in the price range of a used imacon...the file size does not seem to be the issue with the work you do, so 16mpix would be plenty for you....
i shoot mostly people at 100asa with flash....maybe this does not sound like a big deal but shooting 30 frames/min can be very frustrating....the difference between 1frame every 2 sec and 1 frame every 1.3sec is enormous....especially for shooting people...keep that in mind this is not about taking 500 shots, but missing the one shot because the back isn't ready AGAIN....
for shooting people the P20 or P21 are the better choice and both are cheaper or the same price new.....

Right now Digital Transitions is running the Mamiya AFD II kit (body + 80m lens) with a P20 for $8990. That's new with warranty.

P20 Promo

pss & John,

You make very valid points, I will weight the options.

best,
db

I am a digital tech here in Pittsburgh and have used the 132c for about 2 1/2 years with no problems. Before that I had a Kodak DCS Proback so I do have something to compare to personally. It has performed beautifully and I could not be more pleased. The FlexColor software can be learned fairly quickly and with time, like anything else, you will become very good with it. Hasselblad continues to update it at a steady rate and it is rock solid in processing and tethering to all of my Macs. The price seems like a fair one to me and they have a good upgrade path for the future. I'm not sure how being a second purchaser could effect that but a call to a dealer would clear that up easily.

I also work as a photo assistant and see other peoples backs on the job. None have out performed the 132c for reliability and flexibility in use. The color is fantastic and FlexColor is very efficient in post.

As to the shim question it just takes a bit of testing for a few hours to tune it in fully. Out of the box it should be fine but with some testing you can get it right where it should be. Test with wide and normal lenses for the most part as the shim will change a longer lens very little. Just do it methodically, precisely and carefully and you will be fine. Read the directions with the shim kit. Other backs from all of the makers can benefit from this procedure it is not unique to this back or brand.

All the Best,

Alex R Jones, Pittsburgh

http://www.alexrjones.com/alexrjones/digitaltech.html

http://www.alexrjones.com/alexrjones/assistant.html

sorry david to keep bringing things up....but i just came across an image of the 132c....is this the imacon that does not accept flashcards? if so i would seriously reconsider...i used to own a leaf valeo and while the imagebank can be nice (i sometimes wish i had the option now), it makes handheld shooting akward.....you are always attached to a weight, no matter how small, if you have it n your belt, you can't put the camera down...you always have to think about it....again it can be nice to have, just hanging from the tripod, but with 4 and 8gb cards available and getting cheaper 200shots on one card are no problem...without having to worry about the cable and extra 2 pounds hanging from it.....
with the deal that john pointed out (all phase backs can get a deal with a mamiya 645) and all the advantages of getting a new kit with full warranty and the chance to trade in the P20 for probably 5-6000 towards the next back......the imacon looks overpriced.....if you shoot landscapes only on tripod....go for the imacon (for a little less money)....
btw: i have no financial gain in any way if you buy any back from any company...just trying to help...

The Imagebank is fine. I find it better than CF cards as it is so fast. Images pop right up on the screen when you plug it into the computer. The battery gives it 8 hours of run time. It's light, I clip it onto my belt and forget about it. The only downside is that the cables are expensive to replace.

I agree with both, I can spend a lot of time downloading cards from the 1ds2 and the imagebank wins there for immediate viewing, but the weight and cable can be a nuisance if you shoot a lot hand held ( I don' t, so its not too much of a problem - I also use a really long cable so I don't have to drag the imagebank around a studio with me if I don't feel like it ) but then you don' t have to stop to change cards either.
Anecdotally , photographers who have tested other backs have told me they felt keeping the battery and heat generating gear ( like CF card writing stuff ) probably helped image quality as the back ran cooler - I haven't done this comparison myself but it does seem logical.
I can shoot as fast as my venerable ELX can go to the imagebank so for that reason its a big plus for me.
I note Hasselblad seemed on the verge of dropping the image tank idea with the onset of bigger CF cards and their new generation CF backs but have retained the ability to use either due to ( apparent )customer demand.

Also the ImageBank II (for the newer CF backs from HB) powers the back when used on a viewcamera or similar, so you dont need to tether (due to the H3D and CFH backs not having an internal battery, but using that of the H1/H2/H3 body.) I think this is where a lot of the demand comes from (at least my demand did )

-axel

i think that the imagebank is a great idea....but i would much rather have the OPTION to use it....it is only slightly more convenient then shooting tethered without most of the advantages....

I have been using the 132c for some months now for portraiture and landscape and find the imagebank a good thing as you can go on shooting and you can easily transfer images to the computer.

As long as I am using a tripod, it just hangs there almost unnoticed. Shooting handheld is not more difficult, as long as keep the imagebank in a secure position on your body (I often hang it just around my neck, which looks a bit strange but works great).
Of course having the option not to use it would be nice, but I wouldn.t pay a large sum just to have a back without.

I can completely concur with wim, most of the time yhe image bank is a Godsent gift from heaven. You can keep on schooting and schooting ( fantastic with aereal photography and fashion). But sometimes a cf card would be nice. However, I am at this very moment waiting for the bank for my CF39 back.
The 132c is a great back and worth every penny or cent. Plus you can simply upgrade to the CF product or the 39Mp ( as i did)