Hi,

Does anyone know if the Hy6/Aif prism finder will come in a crop version? E.g designed for the 48x38mm size sensor found in for instance the Leaf Aptus 75 sensor.

In similar way as the H3D, where what you see is what you capture.

Best Regards,

Rune Werner Molnes
www.runemolnes.com
- Photographer -

Dear Rune,

the prism finder for the Sinar Hy6 is designed to cover the 6x6 format, since it is a 6x6 camera. The smaller sensors shall be indicated by means of a format masking.

Best regards,
Thierry

So over 40% of the VF image is redundant when used with a digital back, and the size of the "digital crop" part of the image is likely to be significantly less than with the H system viewfinder adapted specifically to the "36x48" sensor format.

You can use this image to visualize the frame coverage.

With a 49X37 chip in a 48X36 VF you actually "loose" 0.5mm around the frame...this makes the "full frame 48X36" statement a bit weird...

Unlike the H3D, the back rotates and it can also take a 120 film back so it needs a 6x6 screen to fit everything in.

GOOD!

I prefer the H system approach of offering two viewfinders adapted to the different formats, film and digital; I suspect that a many users will only ever use digital backs with these bodies, never film.

Even with digital back rotation, a 48x48 (49x49?) digital format adapted VF would be better than a 56x56.

Hi
At least this system can grow & when are the sensors going to be a true 6x4.5?
Thanks Denis

Yair,

How will the backs rotate? Like an RZ where you flip a switch and the back just rotates or do you have to take the back off of the camera to change orientation?

Also looking down in the viewfinder, will it give a different crop or any indication of which orientation you are in?

JR

hasselblad just crops the finder...the image cannot be any bigger then the sensor size...the Hy6 (just like mamiya, contax,...) will probably provide finder masks for the same effect....
i would much rather have the full finder, have the back rotate!!! and mask the unused part off...on my RZ the crop is even more, because the finder is 6x7...but that does not make the image smaller, only smaller in comparison....a certain part of the male anatomy does not get longer just because the legs are shorter:)

Wrong. The Hasselblad HVD90x has a higher degree of magnification compared to the normal HV90x viewfinder (3.1x vs 2.7x). Hence it magnifies the smaller area to appear the same size as "full frame" in the viewfinder.

Svein Erik

if i look through the loupe of my RZ WLF, the masked area of my P30 appears full size...is that what you mean? i can do the same with the prism for the RZ by attaching the focus aid which magnifies the area and makes the P30 "full frame"...maybe mamiya should advertise that....
no matter how you look at it, it is just playing with words and numbers....
the WLF of the Hy6 (looks like the same as for the 6008) has a loupe which would have the same effect....

If I hold my head back from the Contax viewfinder just a bit, it keeps me from seeing the full frame in the viewfinder, but it sees exactly what the chip sees.

I think I'm gonna manufacture a head bracket, that you'd slide your head into, that holds your head in just that certain sweet spot, and I'm gonna hire me some big-city Copywriter to trump up some big words to tout my "full frame!" device with my Contax.

Hasselblad's marketing department should be marched out to the side yard and shot at dawn. Who do they think they're talking to? If Victor Hasselblad was alive, he'd shake his head in disgust.

Would be like Mini-Cooper bringing a potential customer into their showroom, but before they get them to the car, they hand the customer a set of Mr. Magoo coke-bottle glasses that magnify everything, and then they say, "See, It's a 7-Series big BMW!"

Yeah, right.

Hey Tuck, you off the prozac? ;-)

Damn right. And I'm back to my Fighting Weight.

What's just frustrating about all this is, when you've built "a look" out of shooting a 6x8cm film camera for so many years, and then one day, they tell you, "It's time to shoot digital", but then they don't hand you another 6x8 camera, but instead, a sissy little 645, with a whole different kind of focus fall-off, and then, here come all the back makers, and just to mess with you even more, they don't make the chip match the (sissy) camera, but they make the chip *even smaller*, and then have the gall to call it "a full-frame camera", well, yeah, it kinda gets under your skin a little bit.

Does that set a record for longest run-on sentence?

Nice sentence, indeed! Record set as the longest? This I don't now.

More seriously, I understand your frustration. Digital MF format has changed the way to handle things and the gear to be used with, even more in "view-camera" shooting. It's still in constant evolution, on all sides: resolution, quality, handling, speed, match of the camera with the sensor, lenses, software, etc ...

We, understand "Camera/back makers", would be happy to have such sensors so-called full-frame, but current technology with related costs give it the limits. We are all trying to cope with the reality of today, and IMO we do it quite well: this reminds me having read in the begining of the 90's the following, concerning digital:

"If film would not exist, we would have to invent it"!

Does this still apply? I don't think so.

Let's be honest and recognize that digital is fantastic, and the images produced with it are as well, at least that is my opinion.

Thierry

Unlike the H3D, Sinar/Leaf tacitly admit that we will see larger chips in the near future, and are selling their customers a camera that is future-proofed. Now if they just made a deal with Phase, we'd really love them

Edmund

You have to take it off

See my previous post with the masks, it'll be the same as in a V series or an RZ, but I'll ask about having another icon in the VF...

With your writing, Mark, it could be much longer and will still be worth every milliisecond spent reading it!!!!
The good thing is (and I'm sure I'm not the first to tell you that...), YOU (Mark Tucker) would be creating beautiful images with ANY size/ shape/ ratio/ resolution/ lens/ format camera, with or without a VF...

Yair

The added magnification gives you a viewfinder image (from the reduced area) that is the same size as the normal viewfinder would give on a 645. Hence you will have a better view of the smaller area. For a camera that is only used for digital this is a no-brainer. Its a brilliant little option by HB for those of us that shoot digital and have no interest in what is happening outside the 1.1x crop.

If you put a 100mm on you cam instead of a 80mm you get a higher magnification of a smaller area. Is that also just playing with numbers?

Mark,
Are you drinking??


Svein Erik

If you MF back makers are about "giving the customer options" then, respectfully, why don't you give a customer an option to buy a back with a larger that "smaller than 645" chip?

Somebody probably sat in a conference room, and said, "We can only squeeze three chips out of this wafer, so they need to be this size". But what if you only got two (larger) chips out of the same wafer, but charged the customer more for that?

You guys are at some point going to be trying to compete with Canon, (which is an unwinnable war), so why not invent a new ballgame that you just might win, and offer a TRUE medium format chip size? And I dont mean 6x6 either, because that will just get cropped. I mean something like 6x7 or 6x8.

Dear Mark,

while I understand you well and can only agree with what you are saying/proposing (competition with Canon and a true MF sensor), I am also pretty sure that there are some other considerations in such meetings. Costs and break-even factors are certainly important issues here.

Being myself a photographer, I have "pressured" for such since long. Unfortunately I am not sitting in such conference rooms to be able to tell you why it is not the case yet.

All I know is that the "dream" sensor already exists and has been annouced about 10 months ago: 111 MPx with a 4x4" size (10,2x10,2 cm!).

That would exactly fit on a p3 even, isn't it? But don't ask me the price, I don't know it! And don't take this as a statement from me that we will come out with this. I don't know either.

Anyway, your comment shall be forwarded.

Thanks and best,
Thierry

I've used and owned square hasselblads, but only shot about 10 square jobs in my life, so square not only holds not interest for me, it opens up a way different way the client/AD can interpret the image.

My clients are all talented, brilliant, respectful and beautiful (this is a public forum), but I've heard rumors that some clients tend to interfere, pick some very strange final selects, impose their will during and after a project and might be tempted to make a horizontal from a vertical frame or a vertical from a horizontal.

Square just opens up a whole new world of this type of moveable orientation and something that I really would not want to put on the table.

I've also heard rumors that some clients view a digital production as a multi frame to produce one frame process. These "rumors" say clients move heads from image to image, smiles, eyes, even hands.

As a photographer, we are now being subjected to whatever our final vision is it will change drastically once it leaves our hands.

The lack of being able to control the orientation is just another step that goes from our control and goes to some committee for final decision.

Now I am curious about something and maybe Theirry or Yair can answer this, but if the Hy6 back does not rotate without removal, is the thought of a 6x6 square chip a way to get around this? Is this the tale wagging the dog?

Having to take a back off and replace it every few minutes was difficult enough with film, but at least when it slipped and hit the ground it was only a few hundred not a few ten thousand dollars.

Once again, this is based on rumors as my clients are all talented, brilliant, respectful and beautiful.


JR

Thierry,

Don't bother forwarding those comments, because they are just based in theory; not in reality. I have no expectations that a larger sensor will come along before Canon takes over the Universe. Still, I can wish (and complain).

To be honest, in actual use, (rather than so many other comments on this board, which are made by people who don't even own a MF back), the most ideal camera to me, right now, that's actually working and shipping, would be the Contax 645 with a Phase P30 back. I shot a job with that combo a couple weeks ago, and it was close to perfection. Great color; great software (CaptureOne of course); great input profiles for the P30; great recycle rate (especially when shooting to Extreme IVs); not bad recycle rate when shooting tethered to Imac24. The only two things that need improvement on that combination would be a much larger, much more accurate LCD on the back, and to slightly enlarge the chip to echo exactly the 645 viewfinder, with absolutely ZERO crop factor. If someone would take those specs, and make an actual camera, they'd have an actual competitor to Canon.

That is worth forwarding. (Not that I'd expect it to result in an actual camera, but that's at least something to aim for).

Hasselblad (and all MF companies) seem to care less about the size of the LCD. They must think that everyone is either shooting tethered, or they have no client standing there that wants to see a Preview. Actually, none of these companies gets it about the size of the LCD, (except Canon, of course, who you'll soon be working for, and Samsung and other point-and-shoot cameras, which should be incredibly embarrassing to you guys, who're trying to sell a $40,000 solution). Here's a good test for you: You and a friend go out and shoot something. Shoot anything. Make believe that your friend is an Art Director at a large Agency. Imagine that you're holding in your hand a P.O. for a couple hundred grand. Shoot your picture, and then ask your friend, the imaginary Art Director, to come over and look at the puny little, inaccurate LCD on the back of your SinarRolleiWhatever camera, and look him in the eye and really look at his satisfaction level that he truly "gets it" about what you're shooting, and the amount of detail, and the quality of the light, (especially if it's backlit). Ask your friend to be brutally honest with you: "If I held out this (horrible) LCD, and you were spending a couple hundred grand with me, how satisfied would you be, based on what you're seeing on the LCD, that we're truly nailing the shot?"

Good luck with your project. You're gonna need it.

Thierry, is there some literature on this sensor/announcement? when do you think it will happen if it does? I read about 60mp but with a 111 MP 4x4" size (10,2x10,2 cm!). is just Great. Thank you.

Mark,

all comments, suggestions AND complains are welcome and worth to be forwarded, especially if they match with my wishes.

We certainly need "luck", but there is no company having been successful out of luck only: there is a lot of hard work behind all projects, each single one. Sometimes we get it right, sometimes not, but we shall persevere that hard work and follow our belief, with inputs from guys and photographers like you or others on this forum.

Thanks for it.

Thierry

Err...isn't this thread about prism magnification. I don't understand how it could drift off-topic.

Sinar already has more acurate LCD on the back if they could only make it as large as Leaf and enlarge the chip to echo exactly Leafs LCD sze.

GAME OVER, MF Wins!

Yes, there has been an official announcement from Dalsa, in June last year.

http://ajaxnetphoto.blogspot.com/2006_06_01_archive.html

As I said: don't speculate about anything.

And as said Billy, this is off-topic here.

Best regards,
Thierry

svein, is this taken straight out of the hass brouchure? i can tell you that with the loupe on my RZ, the imagearea i am getting is probably bigger then the what hass provides....because the lope is 2x....the hass VF if it simply makes it FF is 1.1x or in case of the H31 1.3x...do they make a different VF for the H31...so that one is FF now as well? with magnification, you could really call anything FF....that is my point...

on the RZ, the back rotates....on the 6008, the emotion rotates, so i am assuming it will be the same on the Hy6.....
the square format does give a lot of options which are sometimes better not given....
there is also something that always bugged me about showing the files when shooting tethered with the P20 (square)...it's all the stuff going on outside the frame, to the left and right.....always had to make sure the preview in C1 was centered correctly to cut out the stuff that isn't meant to be in the shot, but is hard to keep so far away form the subject....you always see so much of the set....it's one thing to have a shot with a c-stand and sandbag peeking in (because it has to be there) but it is another to see the edge of the seemless, cables, stands and coffeecups....just not neat.....

Paul,

Why on earth do you keep bringing up FF and the H31? This has nothing to do with either....

Its about maximizing the image in the viewfinder to the active sensor area for 1.1crop chips. It gives you a BIGGER VIEW OFF WHAT YOU HAVE AVAILABLE TO WORK WITH...

I am not sure how I can try to explain this simpler....

And to re-state the magnifications: HV90x = 2.7x HVD90x = 3.1x



Svein Erik

Yair,

I've always believed that any product that had the word photographic labeled on it, immediatly doubled in price. I swear a roll of duct tape that sells for $2.99 at Wallmart would go for $7.99 at Adorama.

Digital has taken this to a new extreme. I remember with my Kodak 760 the lens mount was defective and Kodak wanted $600 to repair it. Nikon repair was $30, but Kodak was 20x that price.

Right then and there I knew that digital photography was going to be very expensive.

At the time I had a very smart studio manager that said, "you know someday we're going to look back at film and say, I remember when we could shoot and process 12 frames for $15.

I think he was right.

So my point;



Is this a design flaw or is it a planned element of the camera?

With the current 645 style sensors it looks like a design flaw, after all how are you going to switch from horizontal to vertical on a beach, in the wind, on a ladder, etc. etc.?

Or, (now we get to my point) is this just another way to move us to the next level of digital backs?

Is the thought process to say "see, now that you bought the Leaf/Sinar HY6 it's hard to switch orientation, so I guess you had better buy our Aptus 66S you know the square sensored model"?

So stepping back, my $25,000 Valeo witha $6,000 upgrade to the A-22 which will require another $6,000 upgrade to a 54S will then require another $9,000 upgrade to the 6x6 model all for the pleasure of not having to take the back off to change orientation? Add to that the cost of new cameras and lenses and let's see let me total this up . . . ah it' doesn't matter, it's just money even though it is BMW 7 series money.

Sometimes I think the Canon guys must be laughing thier asses off. In fact a lot of people are surprised their is no 1ds2 or 3, but I think it's actually a blessing.

Once again we're going to look back at those 1 dollar a frame film days and laugh.

JR

James,

Rumor has it that you are as talented, brilliant, respectful and beautiful as your clients,

Sorry, I couldn't resist -


BTW, has anyone here except for Thierry actually seen an Unicorn excuse me, a Hy6 that worked ? Is there a release date yet ?

Edmund

Edmund,


I asked my CEO and she said it's a rumor.

Still, since you mentioned Mamiya and Phase, if I was Phase, (of course i'm not) and if I was truly locked out of the HY6 camera platform, two days before that camera hit the streets I would offer a deal.

A mamiya 645 kit and a Mamiya RX67 digital kit, for the price of one HY6. I'd call it the Paul Shevz package.

That way you get a dslr with autofocus, fast lenses AND a leaf shutter camera, with true back rotation and a stable, proven platform with a real user installed user base.

JR

i cant believe the hy6 cant rotate a back without it being removed! didnt the rollei have that rotate all worked out with the 6008/emotion?
camera progress seems to be one step forward, two steps back. there is 3 main reasons i would cough up a lot more money for the hy6 (concidering my h1 gear will loose half its as used gear when the competition arrives)- camera that supports my choice of back, proper "non removing"rotating back, more reliablity and service. so far only the last request may be granted.

why buy a hy6?? arent products need points of difference to even be worth making?
it is just as easy to turn a h1 on its side with a rrs bracket (or gimmicy rotation head) as it is to pull a hy6 back off and reattach.
i cant see any real advantages. its crazy as i am hanging out for a better product than the h1. and i would pay a lot more than h1 gear if it really had features i really could use.

so far, i cannot understand why someone will buy a hy6/sinar over a 6008/sinar? sure the hy6 "looks" more modern, but it seems the 6008 the winning feature- the proper back rotation. i actually prefer the professional look of the 6008. if phase supported it(and rotate), i would definately buy it, even though its discontinued.

paul

Both.
I wonder why.

Why do you insist on interjecting facts when we are in the middle of a good anti-Hasselblad diatribe?

Reminds me of the D30 which as far as features went had rewinded about 6 canon years...

A friend is about to purchase an H2 camera body. Is the 3.1x magnification HVD90x prism compatible?

i know that neither the H39 nor the H31 has anything to do with FF...seems like hass does not....
about the VF...of course i understand what you are saying....i understand that the VF on the H39 magnifies the image slightly...i have seen it, i have looked trough it....what i am saying is that THAT image is still smaller then what i am seeing through my loupe on the RZ...
in my opinion advertising something as a wonderful and great achievement (as the magnified VF) which pretty much exists with every MF system in one form or another, is hype to me.....my personal opinion....some people will go into a store and think that the H is the only camera out there providing something everybody else has.....of course you could say the others are to blame for that....i have a different opinion about that.....
i am not saying that making a prism for each back and charging (2000$?) for it isn't very smart business move....

i totally agree.....the Hy6 is nothing more then a 6008 with a really fancy grip (that does not come off and where probably most of the tech problems will be....).....so since the choices are either emotion or leaf with the Hy6 right now.....and i would choose the sinar anyway....the 6008 is the way to go...proven, works and the back rotates......that is simply a must.....

i guess that is what comes with making a camera body and trying to make sure to control the back that go on it....the 6008/emotion rotates because there is an adapter (just like on the RZ) that makes the rotating possible....get rid of the adapter and you get stationary contacts.....really sad.....
i guess that means that there will be no phase adapter either, because there is no room for any kind of adapter....even if they made a phase version at this point....the Hy6 just died for me....

The 6008AF is still a current model, and to some extent a camera is just there to hold the lenses and backs together, so you won't directly gain any image quality with a Hy6 over a 6008. However, you will get a smaller and lighter body, you will get better battery life, you will lose the sync cable, you get ISO syncing between camera and back, RGB sensor for white balance, and improved mirror action. You also get a slightly different control and display layout. That's all I know about so far.

As for rotating the back on a 6008, you can do that in about a second with a bit of practice. The L bracket helps with other cameras but you still lose the waist level finder. That's a big deal to me personally. YMMV.

My impression when seeing the Hy6 is that it is fairly back-agnostic, with some sort of removable spacer between back and camera, that might be used for a rotation device. I may be wrong on this, but I don't think the design was done to lock anyone out, on the contrary with th extra lens coverage and back surface and back fastening it looked very future-open. I'm sorry to say this as I'm a known cynic, but the Francke CEO came across as - honest and genuinely interested in his product. The sort of guy I'd like to buy a camera from. The Leaf guys came across as very business-oriented, and the Sinar guys came across as - confused.

Edmund

and i still cant understand so much discussions and either positiv or negativ emotions about a camera which already does not exist,- and if it will be out it will not be a revolution in any aspect cause its based on a many years existing design.
before so many commented in a nearly hysteric way the hy/avi positiv, now the opposite......
why not wait till the camera will have met the first hands and than to discuss about ?

its often a nice board here , but this hy/avi discussions remind me in dpreviews canon forum.

edmund...that is how i pictured the camera as well and the fact that it is supposed to take the 645rollei mag made sense to me....that is why i keep thinking that someone will come up with an adapter....but if the whole adapter thing isn't planned in i don't see how a regular phase back would not be too far back (focus) with some kind of adapter, especially one that can rotate....the phase adapter i have for the RZ looks almost like 5mm to me....the RZ magazines have the rotating mechanism built in, so the film plane sits back a bit....
i am really surprised.....i guess it will be like the 645 mag on the 6008, it sits in an adapter, take it off rotate, put it back on....but with the emotion rotating on the 6008, there is no reason to take a step back in the wrong direction...other then to lock people out.....which really is 2 steps back....

i shoot a lot from ground level, and most shots are horizontal luckly so a waist finder works with an h1. have you ever tried to shoot from the ground looking through a prism all day, its neck breaking material. i also seem to get locations to shoot that im either backed up to a wall, against some unmovable object. so i got really interested in the hy6 and rollei, especially with all the various types of finders rollei has made in the past. these are the real things that make my work easier.
the rotating back is another practical feature- a lot of shots i take are going to be used as DPS and a4 portrait. this is one of the many features that made the rb/rz great cameras in their day.
i cant see why people dont want these features again? a removable rotating back is an expensive accident waiting to happen.

the hy6 weight isnt really a big selling point for me. it isnt a point and shoot or holiday camera, it should be professional work horse. all cameras seem light compared to the rz/rb i lugged around for most of career. i dont fly a lot, i would probably think differently if i did.

paul

Rainer, agreed. I'd prefer to see the emotional/flame content of these discussions taken down a stop or two. Speaking for myself, I'm interested in simply gathering information that I can add to my mix of research, dealer tests and personal experience in order to make an informed decision...

I can understand why folks feel angry about a business which used to produce unrivalled quality and which now charges much more for products with lower perceived quality, fewer options, all coming at a time of major changes in the industry and marketplace. Scary, anger inducing stuff. I'd just like to see some of that vented off pre-post. Manufacturers should hear this stuff, for sure. And I think it's fine to say "man this pisses me off" without the smoldering flames directed at fellow forum members.

I'm resigned to the fact that digital is buggy and that firmware will need (timely, accurate) updates (that will then fix the problem). Hardware shouldn't have these problems out of the box, and quality control should be top notch. Bad hardware makes me angry too, especially when I've paid handsomely for the privelege of using it. And this anger should be heard publically. It's information as well. I just wish that we could separate the anger part of the post from the information part a bit more. I guess what I'm trying to say is that really, we're all on the same side here as consumers. Let's not beat each other up for using product X nor irrationally defend bad business practices where they exist.

That being said, here's a vintage 2006 3D rendering (some of you have seen this already of course) of the back change on the Sinar Hy6. Not incredibly detailed, may or may not be current, may not provide any useful information, may send some into a sudden random apoplectic rage.

http://www.zoomatra.de/2006/sinar/vrml/vrml.html

And, in order to save time, the knee-jerk responses can include:

1. That was clearly designed by blind misanthropes that have never touched a camera
2. That tells me nothing without seeing it for real, you have wasted precious minutes of my life and I want them back
3. Product X/Y is better/worse in my experience/dreams/pants

(liklihood of negative response to this post, 95%)

sorry, im guilty of that. its just hard to not to get emotive when ive invested more in one camera than probably every other camera ive owned put together.
if i could easily put my p25 onto multiple cameras, i could just choose the camera that suited the job. but instead im hoping the Hy6 would come and save me , and give another better option than the h1

paul

Hi,

I recently had the opportunity to test a beta- version of the Sinar Hy6 here in Norway, and it felt just right in my hands. All important functions/buttons can be thumb- operated, and the ergonomics, size and weight is also a big plus with this camera.

I have been using mainly 35mm format and lately a Canon 1Ds MkII, and have very little or no previous experience with MF. So I approached the various MF alternatives with few preconceptions. Tried the H3D but did not like it much for various reasons; some of them being size, weight distribution/balance, ergonomics and last but not least operation/interface which I felt was very counter- intuitive.

A representative from Sinar was there promising me a new stellar 35mm ("optimized for digital") for the Hy6/AFi come August 2007.

After testing the H3D-39 against an Leaf Aptus 75/Mamiya combo, I ended up ordering my Leaf AFi 75 - camera. I've been promised delivery come summer 2007, and have been offered the opportunity to use a Leaf Aptus 75 + Mamiya 645 AFD II until the AFi is ready. I'll probably wait with the AFi until the 35mm is available, as I shoot a lot of my landscapes at wide angle.

Some keep referring to the "mythical Hy6", but it's by all means a real camera just around the corner: http://www.leaf-photography.com

Rune Werner Molnes

Rune, can you comment on your comparison of the Sinar vs Leaf... what made you go with Leaf in this case, etc.?