ronno
Oct 1 2007, 04:40 PM
So, I have been wondering what people are doing once their cache as a photographer is gone. At the moment, I have plenty of work and things look rosy. But then I think about getting old, grey and fat, and who's going to hire me then?? Where I work ( fashion in NYC), image seems to be a big part of the story. Sure there are some aging super stars in the photo industry here, but it seems to be mostly cute, young (european!) guys who dominate the market...so what happens when your youth starts to wane? I mean, only so many of us can end up teaching photography, right?
I am now at the height of my career, making plenty of cash, and already I am thinking I should be gaining more skills so I don't end up moving into my mom's basement when I am 50... :-(
Gary Ferguson
Oct 1 2007, 05:40 PM
I completed a degree in photography nearly thirty years ago, but decided I wasn't ever likely to break through the competition, so did other things with my working life. However, I've always kept in touch with my fellow students. On balance they present a sobering picture of the professional photographer's life.
Most occupied the middle or lower rungs of the profession, from wedding photography to selling or management in photo retailers. The wedding photographers have become pretty jaded after three decades at the job. They make a living, but they all recognise that competition means they can never raise their fees too much above the market rate. And photographic retailing has had a torrid time since the advent of the internet.
A few had an early rush of fame and fortune, but that often faded away when the art directors that essentially brokered their rise moved on themselves to other things.
The last thirty years has seen the demise of staff or in-house photographers, so sadly most of the ones who were in stable employment have been made redundant on at least two or three occasions. The library/stock income that kept many afloat has steadily dwindled as fees declined and their library portfolios became outdated.
One guy had a very successful business as a food photographer, with a well located specialist studio. I thought he was the best placed to maintain momentum over the long haul. But about eight years ago, after more than twenty years of sustained results, his turnover spiralled down to almost nothing in a frighteningly brief period. He feels he kept his work fresh and contemporary, but that he had built his business on a small group of clients, and they were either promoted beyond the level where they were actively commisioning photographic work, or they just moved on to other industries.
I'm about to retire from my non-photographic career, and over the last couple of years I've been building up an architectural photography practise. Personally I feel that the business skills I've acquired outside photography have made the process, if not easy, then at least steady and profitable. I remember the carnage from the 1989-95 property crash here in the UK, and with strong signals that another's on the way I'm certainly not counting my chickens, especially as most of my clients are property developers or manufacturers of building materials.
But I'm convinced that as long as you keep working at developing your customer base the photographic future needn't be as bleak as many of my contemporaries have found it.
I guess photography is simply a particularly dynamic business, and the moment you stop reinventing yourself, taking risks, and nurturing the future commercial prospects of your business; then it doesn't take long to get overtaken by the next generation.
pixjohn
Oct 1 2007, 05:47 PM
Save, Invest and Save more $$$. If I new the future back then, I would have continued with my plans to attend law school. I am lucky I have made a good living so far, but have no clue what the future holds. To many new photographers have been entering the business with cut throat rates. Photographers made more money 20 years ago then today.
QUOTE (ronno @ Oct 1 2007, 01:40 PM)
So, I have been wondering what people are doing once their cache as a photographer is gone. At the moment, I have plenty of work and things look rosy. But then I think about getting old, grey and fat, and who's going to hire me then?? Where I work ( fashion in NYC), image seems to be a big part of the story. Sure there are some aging super stars in the photo industry here, but it seems to be mostly cute, young (european!) guys who dominate the market...so what happens when your youth starts to wane? I mean, only so many of us can end up teaching photography, right?
I am now at the height of my career, making plenty of cash, and already I am thinking I should be gaining more skills so I don't end up moving into my mom's basement when I am 50... :-(
EricWHiss
Oct 1 2007, 10:40 PM
Pop! Pop! I hear the sounds of lots of bubbles bursting! Maybe all the young punks reading this forum will go away and find a job in graphic design or web monkey instead. ;_)
Ron,
You know what the funny thing is I hear the same from my friends that are in Engineering here in Silicon Valley. They say they are done at 40 - all washed up. No one wants them and only wants to hire the young guys right out of school. I also hear from my other friends that have kids, they are done. Who is going to hire a guy that has to leave at 5 to pick up their kids from school?
But all these guys still have jobs, and houses right now anyhow. I wouldn't worry about it. As long as you say you are still learning I think everything is okay. That's whats gets you - when you think you know everything.
Eric
ps. if you rent a studio, think about buying - at least in the end you can rent it, sell it, or live in it instead of tossing money away.
Kagetsu
Oct 1 2007, 10:58 PM
Photography seems to be a hot thing right now. I'm still quite young, but I have to be realistic. There's nothing I'd like more then to produce photography for a living, and there are people out there who obviously do it quite successfully. Realistically, my 'skill' level may be resonable, but commercial, it's un-viable for me to enter full on into the market. It's a side thing for me. Maybe one day, but not likely. It'll always be my hobby, with anything else coming in... I'll be happy if it ends up paying for itself and a few holidays (for photography of course).
I've yet to meet any of the really successful... Actually, that's not true, I've met two who do landscapes... But they both work incredibly hard... Which I would also like, but I can't see either of them going until they die (in a commercial sense)... Actually, one is dead (
Jarver). Anyway, they were successful, but by no means would I say they're successful in the way of general business would be considered. They probably bring in at the end of the day an average income, and live an average life outside their photography.
There's actually a good magazine article on the demise of the professional photographer in an Australian Magazine I'm reading at the moment. I'll photograph the pages (don't have a scanner at home) and try and post them in a few hours.
In relation to the 'getting' to that age sort of time, I guess it's how well you've planned prior to getting there. Some people do it well, some don't. It's really no different to many other industries with similar trends.
I like to think of it as a trying time for photographers now. The shiners will carry on, and the ones who can't break away from the riff-raff will be dragged back down. It's not a bad thing. With any luck more interesting and unusual stuff will come from it.
AndreNapier
Oct 1 2007, 11:39 PM
At 20 you can be a soldier
At 30 sergant
at 40 captain
at 50 major
at 60 general
Nobody needs 60+ soldiers, everyone respect the general. If you do not have the makings of general maybe you should not consider millitary as a life carrier
andre.
45+
Dustbak
Oct 2 2007, 02:01 AM
I have been in more than one career by now at only 38. Currently I live from photography. Indeed hard work but when you manage to keep your costs low it can be done.
I have done everything by just doing it without thinking too long about the consequences or what can go wrong. If I would have, I would never have done many of the things I have done sofar.
Sure you need to think a bit about what will come in the future but IMO not too hard. Who knows what will happen tomorrow? You live today.
I have enough skills to pick almost any career that I like but outside events can always render a skill useless or unwanted. You never know. The only thing I do is live now, keep on discovering and learning things. I try to steer my life into a certain direction but if I need to reroute due to circumstances beyond my power, no problem.
There is more in this world than New York and maybe you will make it as an 'old photographer'
mahleu
Oct 2 2007, 02:58 AM
just out of curiousity, am I the youngest person on here? (22)
Dustbak
Oct 2 2007, 03:18 AM
You should be in NY
godtfred
Oct 2 2007, 03:24 AM
QUOTE (ronno @ Oct 1 2007, 10:40 PM)
So, I have been wondering what people are doing once their cache as a photographer is gone. At the moment, I have plenty of work and things look rosy. But then I think about getting old, grey and fat, and who's going to hire me then?? Where I work ( fashion in NYC), image seems to be a big part of the story. Sure there are some aging super stars in the photo industry here, but it seems to be mostly cute, young (european!) guys who dominate the market...so what happens when your youth starts to wane? I mean, only so many of us can end up teaching photography, right?
I am now at the height of my career, making plenty of cash, and already I am thinking I should be gaining more skills so I don't end up moving into my mom's basement when I am 50... :-(
Lots and lots of babies, cats and weddings out there, it ain't pretty, but you'll pull through
sbernthal
Oct 2 2007, 06:18 AM
It is not only New York high fashion or weddings and cats.
There's plenty of stuff in the middle.
I am almost 40 and now make a living as a commercial photographer - no weddings!
I find it easy to manage in photography at an advanced age, as long as you keep an open mind and don't have to be the "flavor of the day" shooting the "it" model for vogue, or the prestige magazine of your location.
There's plenty of commercial photographic work in any western industrialized city - be it food, product, jewelry, architecture, portraits, or even basic fashion.
Here in Israel the top photographers make about $1500 a day.
I make half that on a very good day.
I guess the numbers are at least triple that in New York.
My point is that your rates will drop, but if you are flexible and open minded to what the market wants, and what you can and are willing to do, then you can still make a living at this even after 40.
The big thing is how to get new clients, but this is information that obviously nobody will share willingly.
Dustbak
Oct 2 2007, 06:57 AM
Sure, I am willing to share how I get my clients. I call, mail, email, fax, beg, visit and entertain potential clients

Only very rarely they will come to me by themselves. I also have to admit that I pick clients that I would like to have most and go after them. Sort of the 100 clients I want most list.
You have to push yourself over the feeling of shyness of approaching people to ask them whether you can work for them. This should not be too hard for a photographer. The older I get the easier this is for me I have found out. Very little will make me feel ashamed so I have no objections doing stuff I would not have dreamed of doing when I was in my early 20's.
IMO, this skill is the least developed with many photographers. Many think they just have to make a few beautiful images and the clients will come in herds. Keep on dreaming, at least I have never been that fortunate

I even have to push my regular clients to bring their stuff every 6 months.
Indeed there is a never-ending need of images in all sorts of industries for all sort of companies or even individuals.
Another thing I have to mention. I do not work full time! I take care of my 2 kids and work. This means my earnings are lower than if I would work fulltime so I had to drop costs to be able to survive and I work on odd hours. I work lots of weekends and nights which is great because it allows me to spend time with my kids, moderate a photography forum and post on this one as well
There are periods of time that I make double shifts and periods that are very quiet.
TorbenEskerod
Oct 2 2007, 07:46 AM
xx
Dustbak
Oct 2 2007, 07:56 AM
You are a lucky man Torben
My experience is that we live in a world where most people have forgotten about you when you are around the corner. Which means you have to go after it yourself to succeed.
Sure. I have clients that do come back by themselves with lots of work. There is also a large number that needs a little bit of help in that area. On another level, I have been able to get more work from existing clients by being proactively involved with them.
What do you mean you are in a better position if the client calls you instead of the other way around? Even if you do the aqcuisition yourself you can always refuse an assignment. It can be too badly paid, not in your expertise or for whatever reason. This way it doesn't necessarily mean you are in a better position when the clients call you, IMO naturally. They just called you nothing more nothing less.
The work needs to fulfill the clients needs, period. Lets not go there and lets assume the ability to deliver professional results.
TorbenEskerod
Oct 2 2007, 08:21 AM
xx
thsinar
Oct 2 2007, 08:32 AM
I fully agree with this: to give the client this little unexpected, unwaited and "different" is the best way to get it coming back. Not trying to get the job just done and deliver what was asked but a little bit more which makes him wanting it. That's exactly the point for many who are very successful. And of course, luck is not involved here, but hours and hours of hard work, experiencing and sometimes even loosing time and money.
Thierry
QUOTE (TorbenEskerod @ Oct 2 2007, 08:21 PM)
I always try to give my clients something extra, something they don’t expect, and something they did not even think off, something I want the client to have.
I don’t think luck has anything to do with it - just the work - it is as simple as that.
Torben
Dustbak
Oct 2 2007, 08:42 AM
QUOTE (TorbenEskerod @ Oct 2 2007, 03:21 PM)
I always try to give my clients something extra, something they don’t expect, and something they did not even think off, something I want the client to have.
I don’t think luck has anything to do with it - just the work - it is as simple as that.
Torben
I feel like you either don't understand what I write or are misinterpreting what I am saying.
I wrote with the meaning; given the fact that you deliver what the client wants. Whether that is more than the client wants or exactly what they want as long as they are completely satisfied and coming back for more. Now having that out of the way, what do you do or can you do to get more clients, beyond sitting back and waiting. Not saying that one thing is better than another, they are all just options.
I mean you are a lucky man for what you claim to be able to do. Sure hard work is a big part of it but without luck nobody fares well. You can also read lucky in the form of being happy, fortunate, etc.. It has nothing to do with the way you got there. It also a form of telling someone that you are happy for them as well.
sbernthal
Oct 2 2007, 08:54 AM
I do only passive marketing: I expose myself to possible clients and wait for them to call me.
Others come by reference.
This is of course expensive and inefficient.
There is no doubt that the photographer that has the nerve to go to the client and push him for work, will get much more business.
However, unfortunately, many photographers are too "sensitive" to do it, as I'm sorry to admit I am.
But I would not call it an ideology - it is a shortcoming of the photographer that can't do it, and nothing to brag about.
ronno
Oct 2 2007, 07:20 PM
QUOTE (TorbenEskerod @ Oct 2 2007, 08:46 AM)
I get my clients this way - they contact me. I never call potential clients unless they call me first. I do no self-promotion, I have no website, I am not listed in the phonebook. I think I am in a much better situation when the client calls me than the opposite way around.
Ronno, I value an old Vanity Fair issue where working photographers past 80 was featured (Avedon, Penn, Newton, Parks, etc.). This is where I want to be, making good work when I am 80+
I always believe in the work - not the self-promotion part.
Torben
Hey Torben, I am curious about this. Maybe you'd be willing to show us some of your work, or reveal your location/market, or both!
Also, I agree that for Vanity Fair to give these guys a salute is great. I think they are (were...) all super photographers and deserve the recognition. Which issue was it?
p.s. is this you?
http://www.yossimilo.com/artists/torb_eske...img_num=0#titlehttp://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&search-typ...0Eskerod&page=1Best,
-ron
Silverthorne
Oct 2 2007, 07:45 PM
I never made real money is this business until clients saw my gray hair. At age 48, I can honestly say that I make a good living in photography. Hopefully the trend will continue as I go through my fifties and finally set up an art shop for selling my landscapes and framing photos with the help of some young person with tons of energy. Stock photography with respectable prices, would suit me fine, but it's the respectable price part that I am not convinced will work.
Architectual photography has been the most consistant of all my experiments. That's what it has been for 2o years and will most likely be for another 12 years of so. Re-inventing yourself is a yearly event; whether it be your style, your business model, or your equipment. When work does get slow, I ask myself "what am I doing wrong"? It is as if, you need to look until you find something wrong with your program. Usually it's the marketing. Sometimes it's the work.
That's my guess.
Photography is my profession for over 15 years now. It gives me a modest income, but this is my deliberate choice. I could earn a lot more, but I would have to work more too. Each month I spend about one week for paid jobs. The rest of my time is dedicated to free work, thinking, writing, dreaming and simply enjoying life, having tea with friends. It's not difficult to live with little income when you are so rich with good life on the other hand. Just keep your monetary expenses low.
I love to live in the shadow. No need for spotlights or other nerve wrecking ideals. One day I hope to have created a body of work good enough to make my own exhibition and probably a nice book. But if it won't happen I will still be happy with my blessed life. I cannot imagine a life without creativity, so I'll probably still be an artist when I'm old. Currently my income is based on a rather small customer base. If these people give up on me or if they retire from the companies that they work for I might have a serious problem. I've never done any acquisition. Still I notice that the older you become the more you build up a network around you. And without doing anything to promote myself this network brings in new assignments all the time. I very much believe that the quality of the work is only part of the package. The people you work for need to be taken on a trip by you. It is the experience of that process that will bring them back to you. After all, how often are they able to see the real quality of your work?
Many times I have been investing huge amounts of time in things I wanted to find out or learn. Just out of curiosity. But the skills resulting from these quests have always paid themselves back sooner or later. That's why I am not afraid of the future. As long as I'll have my inventivity with me I will be able to survive. That's really a soothing thought.
RicAgu
Oct 2 2007, 09:55 PM
Avedon was shooting and on assignment when he died in his 70's
Newton died leaving his set in his 70's
Scavullo died in his 70's shooting weeks before he went into the hospital and passeed on.
Penn is in his 90's and still shootng 4 days a week.
God, I hope this is the way I go!
If what you do does not consume your very being, then you should not be doing it. We don't do it because we have to do it because we want to pay the bills, but we do it in spite of it, because we love it. Because as we all know, this is not the way to get rich quick and relax and retire quick.
CARPE DIEM!
Best of Luck!
RA
pixjohn
Oct 2 2007, 10:52 PM
Julius Shulman is 95 and still shooting, teaching and doing lectures. I don't think you could do better then that.
AndreNapier
Oct 3 2007, 12:39 AM
There is no secret that the whole beauty and fashion industry is in general populated by young and hip crowd. The secret to success and longevity is considering it as a business and not a gig and applying proven structures of running an enterprise.
When I was a stylist in my twenties and thirties I new well that my hands and talent will not carry me till my full age retirement. Simply there is not many stylist in their 50's as the job is physically to demanding despite popular believe. From the start I knew that my key to survival is investing as much time into my business skill as I did into creativity. Being a top stylist in my market I would easily pull $1000+ day and be solid book 300 days a year. I did and still do live a modest life style.
That helped me smartly invest majority of my income and very soon open my own salon. With time passing I delegated my clientel and responsibilities to young stylist. Now no longer behind a chair I do not miss my income as the business produces much more than my hands would ever do.
I try to apply the same logic to everything I do, being it a real estate or photography. It is a business and the savvy one are surviving while the dreamers are sinking everyday.
My advice to the young crowd is very, very simple: Just because you love and are proud of your work do not be shy to think of it as business.
Money is good today? great, save it. Buy your own studio, hire other photogs to do your dirty jobs and cash on it. If your name and work is a magnet you would attract clientel of all sorts of needs. There is no shame to cash on weddings if you do not have to do it yourself. Your apprentice can run this line in your studio. While at it hire a make up artist and a hair stylist to offer a full service solution. Have some younger photog doing your compcards work for young kids for agencies you established contacts with. Offer in house printing and cash on it as well. Possibilities are endless.
Soon you would realize that the odds jobs are by far exceeding your own income.
Just a fruit for thought. I had never been ashame to make a dollar as long as it did not hurt anybody else.
http://AndreNapier.com
TorbenEskerod
Oct 3 2007, 01:21 AM
xx
TorbenEskerod
Oct 3 2007, 01:39 AM
xx
QUOTE (EPd @ Oct 3 2007, 03:09 AM)
Photography is my profession for over 15 years now. It gives me a modest income, but this is my deliberate choice. I could earn a lot more, but I would have to work more too. Each month I spend about one week for paid jobs. The rest of my time is dedicated to free work, thinking, writing, dreaming and simply enjoying life, having tea with friends. It's not difficult to live with little income when you are so rich with good life on the other hand. Just keep your monetary expenses low.
I love to live in the shadow. No need for spotlights or other nerve wrecking ideals. One day I hope to have created a body of work good enough to make my own exhibition and probably a nice book. But if it won't happen I will still be happy with my blessed life. I cannot imagine a life without creativity, so I'll probably still be an artist when I'm old. Currently my income is based on a rather small customer base. If these people give up on me or if they retire from the companies that they work for I might have a serious problem. I've never done any acquisition. Still I notice that the older you become the more you build up a network around you. And without doing anything to promote myself this network brings in new assignments all the time. I very much believe that the quality of the work is only part of the package. The people you work for need to be taken on a trip by you. It is the experience of that process that will bring them back to you. After all, how often are they able to see the real quality of your work?
Many times I have been investing huge amounts of time in things I wanted to find out or learn. Just out of curiosity. But the skills resulting from these quests have always paid themselves back sooner or later. That's why I am not afraid of the future. As long as I'll have my inventivity with me I will be able to survive. That's really a soothing thought.
Nice if your clients will leave you alone, I've had calls on a Saturday evening at 11.30 desperate for an image to be ftp'd. I'm working 6 days and evenings most weeks, sometimes rushed other times more easily. I can't dictate my freetime, that's when the phone stops ringing and everything is upto date. Having a holiday causes me major trauma. If I thought anyone would pay me what the business is worth to me I'd sell and do something less demanding on my time.
Kevin.
Mark_Tucker
Oct 3 2007, 06:22 AM
There is a long feature on Shulman in last month's issue of Dwell Magazine, shot by Catherine Ledner.
Very inspiring. And many of his historic BW images published in the article.
http://www.getty.edu/art/exhibitions/shulman/QUOTE (pixjohn @ Oct 3 2007, 03:52 AM)
Julius Shulman is 95 and still shooting, teaching and doing lectures. I don't think you could do better then that.
awofinden
Oct 3 2007, 08:18 AM
QUOTE (ronno @ Oct 1 2007, 04:40 PM)
So, I have been wondering what people are doing once their cache as a photographer is gone. At the moment, I have plenty of work and things look rosy. But then I think about getting old, grey and fat, and who's going to hire me then?? Where I work ( fashion in NYC), image seems to be a big part of the story. Sure there are some aging super stars in the photo industry here, but it seems to be mostly cute, young (european!) guys who dominate the market...so what happens when your youth starts to wane? I mean, only so many of us can end up teaching photography, right?
I am now at the height of my career, making plenty of cash, and already I am thinking I should be gaining more skills so I don't end up moving into my mom's basement when I am 50... :-(
Peter Lindberg must be in his 60's, demarchelier the same, miesel, 50? Albert Watson 60 ish surely. Name a superstar younger than 40, can you?
SeanPuckett
Oct 3 2007, 10:41 AM
There is a lot more money in helping others fulfill their dreams than in trying to sell them yours.
wilburdl
Oct 3 2007, 11:04 AM
Ron,
Thanks for this topic.
I must admit I never thought I'd be in photography. Most of my life has been consumed with illustration. By chance, while doing editorial cartoons for my university student paper, I picked up a friends camera. It got me interested. Since then I've run the gambit of photographic genres but people remain my passion. I've only been in photography for five years. It's where I want to be.
I've found that I've outgrown my small market and on the way to relocating to Atlanta (where I've made a few to expand my base. I've been paying my dues and gleaming all the information I can from my local ASMP chapter.
I can understand the trepidation of any photographer trying to make a living out of this endeavor--albeit a bit jarring that it never disappears-no matter how successful. But I don't believe the market will ever be so volatile that it wouldn't make economic sense to pursue it. It's just things change. Everything but the basics. And for me that includes being outgoing, respectful, open to criticism and peristance.
ronno
Oct 3 2007, 11:17 AM
QUOTE (awofinden @ Oct 3 2007, 09:18 AM)
Peter Lindberg must be in his 60's, demarchelier the same, miesel, 50? Albert Watson 60 ish surely. Name a superstar younger than 40, can you?
You are making my point. There are a few older stars, but for every one of them, there are thousands who are not stars, and not working anymore. What have they moved on to?
bwpuk
Oct 3 2007, 01:18 PM
QUOTE (ronno @ Oct 1 2007, 09:40 PM)
So, I have been wondering what people are doing once their cache as a photographer is gone. At the moment, I have plenty of work and things look rosy. But then I think about getting old, grey and fat, and who's going to hire me then?? Where I work ( fashion in NYC), image seems to be a big part of the story. Sure there are some aging super stars in the photo industry here, but it seems to be mostly cute, young (european!) guys who dominate the market...so what happens when your youth starts to wane? I mean, only so many of us can end up teaching photography, right?
I am now at the height of my career, making plenty of cash, and already I am thinking I should be gaining more skills so I don't end up moving into my mom's basement when I am 50... :-(
Ron,
Thanks for this post, one of the most insightful and thought provoking that's occurred on this forum in my opinion.
It really made my day when I read here that Irving Penn still shoots four days a week at the age of 90. He has long been a hero of mine and is THE BOSS as far as I'm concerned. You can just tell, by looking at his work, that he loves what he does, and would do it whether it made him money or not. Same for Avedon, you can just tell, his work glows like a precious jewel. When Avedon died I was greatly upset until I came across this quote made by him, from his obituary;
" And if a day goes by without my doing something related to photography, it's as though I've neglected something essential to my existence, as though I had forgotten to wake up. I know that the accident of my being a photographer has made my life possible."
I've enlarged this and printed it out and stuck it to the wall of my office. It echoes my own feelings to a word.
What is success anyway, earning a ton of money or having the time to do what you love and just getting by ? I think to be truly successful in photography you have to treat it as an obsession and not a profession. Just do your own thing and go your own way. This is the important thing that will make you stand out from the crowd, and it's pretty crowded out there at the moment !
Barrie Watts
TorbenEskerod
Oct 3 2007, 01:33 PM
xx
AndreNapier
Oct 3 2007, 02:02 PM
QUOTE (TorbenEskerod @ Oct 3 2007, 02:39 AM)
Yesterday I saw a very wonderful film about the painter Lucian Freud:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lucian-Freud-Portr...91393076&sr=1-1He is totally committed to his art, nothing can interfere, and he does not care about business at all just his work. I think I am a bit naive but this is the way I want to go.
Best
Torben
Do you think he is somewhere in the syberspace on painters forums arguing about the use of silk brush vs horsetail brush? or discussing superiority of short strokes over gliding? I my previous post I stated that I am friend with some great artists in despair. To some extend I admire them to the other I feel sorry for their pain. Everything is expanse of something else. If you are single and did not made a commitment of responsibilities you can make an easier choices. I have four kids. The youngest just turn two. She will be in college when I will be 65+ IT IS MY DUTY AS AN ARTIST
TO BE HER FATHER FIRST. Besides I truly do not think that Money is a menace of creativity. Quite contrary it open the means of freedom to create without being constrain to have to do things to just survive. My underwater birth project " gift of life" of my Gitane took 6 months of preparation to create just one image. It would not be possible if I had to do other things in the same time. It was and 90% of my photography still is for the love of it. Deep lasting life long love.
It just hurts me so much to see great photogs like my neighbor Mark Houser going out on foreclosures late in their life, when it did not have to be this way at all.
TorbenEskerod
Oct 3 2007, 03:02 PM
xx
nicolaasdb
Oct 3 2007, 03:30 PM
I know a super star photographer in his 40's...Nicolaas de Bruin (oeps that's me!!
Nobody really cares how you look like as long as they like your work and your price.
But after reading this tread I have to lose that extra 30LBS I have been walking around with....OR i just wait for the quiet times....when clients seem to have forgotten about you.
About advertising...how in this day and age can you really say that you don't need or have a website and don't advertise?? I agree with the part of not calling clients....let them call you, since I never have anything to offer (financial discounts that is)....
ronno
Oct 3 2007, 04:21 PM
QUOTE (EPd @ Oct 2 2007, 10:09 PM)
Photography is my profession for over 15 years now. It gives me a modest income, but this is my deliberate choice. I could earn a lot more, but I would have to work more too. Each month I spend about one week for paid jobs. The rest of my time is dedicated to free work, thinking, writing, dreaming and simply enjoying life, having tea with friends. It's not difficult to live with little income when you are so rich with good life on the other hand. Just keep your monetary expenses low.
I just bought a weekend house in the country where I spend three nights a week spacing out, swimming in the river, guzzling wine, bbqs, etc. So at the moment, I am living large. (and investing! in real estate! Which seemed like a good investment until the recent real estate crash :-)) But it's the enjoyment of such which gets me thinking about how to keep this going for the rest of my life (and especially when I intend at some point to have expensive $$$ kids...)
This got me looking around at my peers (the Young And The Beautiful: art directors, photographers, etc. all looking like models themselves) and asking the above questions...
By the way, I love Lucian Freud. What's the name of the movie? Whenever people ask me about what books to get to learn photography I tell them to get books of paintings and photographs, instead of the the cheesy 1-2-3 portrait lighting books. And I recommend books with gorgeous painted portraits like Lucian's. I think being able to RECOGNIZE nice light is a big and important piece of the puzzle when you are staring out.
Best,
-ron
SeanPuckett
Oct 3 2007, 05:35 PM
At the top of my game at age 39, I quit my last career. Independent, sought after, earn-as-much-as-I-want sort of thing. I threw it in the toilet so I could get my soul back -- with photography. Like my artist's bio says, I smile a lot more frequently these days. I think that's the key, ronno. Keep a roof over your head, keep your family fed, and make sure you smile more days than not. That's what success really is.
I must confess that sometimes I feel that nasty old frantic feeling, but I try and take a step back and have a walk or a beer or something and go out and take some pictures and walk around in the sunshine, and it's all better again.
rainer_v
Oct 3 2007, 06:05 PM
many interesting things have been said here, much more than our endless chats about this or that pixel which is sightly more or less sharp.
i am thinking about several standpoints here, which seem to be so different because our lives, careers and aproaches are also very different., and i think all are very interesting to read.
my personal believe is that we need good luck at first.
what, if i will get tomorow some serious illness ? or an accident by car or one of my children will have it ? or the gulfstreem will stop .... ? i mean, without becoming to pathetic , there is more in our live which is not to control and which can easily and fast be much more important as if we earn $*****,** or just the half.
.... my spanish house is in the old part of a little town in the south, on the top of a hill. in front of the house is one way road which leads up the mountain and between the road and my house- door is a small way for people. never i look to the left of this walkway if i go out of the house,- although many crazy byces race up usualy they use the road.
but this afternoon i looked before i went out,- exactly in time to see that a motorbyce used the walkway to make a race against a car which was aside on the road. both passed by a fraction of a second later with maybee 50 mph,- passing by maybe 1/4 meter in front of me, going out on the walkway without looking left and i would not write now here... i had good luck or whatever, i am still alive and can plan my next projects.
call it good luck or destiny if you prefer, certainly it was not earned through my great skills.
About work i share the idea to give something more than expected, and i dont like to bill every handshake i am doing. so i prefer lump-sums not daily rates + this and + that and + this + that.
i usually hold contacts with clients which i personnally like and with whom i have to speak somehing, which has not only to be work. i dont hold contacts with people who do not give me a good feel,- independent if they are important or not. of course if they phone me and the conditions are ok, i will work for them and i will like to do this, but i will not be behind these contacts as long they dont phone me. maybe this resulted in some natural- selection,- with most of my clients i have a good time if they hire me, they are happy with my work and am with them. this certainly creates some atmosphere which for both is usefull.
before it was said that its good to take the clients on a "trip" with your work,- i agree with this, whenever it is possible.
nicolaasdb
Oct 4 2007, 12:31 AM
rainer...you are soooo right...life is to short....You need a lot of luck.
My wife recently gave birth and this is the first time in about 5 year that I have taken a "breather" taking is a little slower and enjoying something really NEW.
mahleu
Oct 4 2007, 02:05 AM
I've had it beaten (figuratively) into me that I should be investing at least 20% of what i'm earning, more if I can. And it makes sense, as long as I can feed and shelter myself (and run my equipment:) ) then a fair amount of the surplus doesn't towards a new car, or random things that don't need upgrading, it goes into shares.
This way, when I retire (if ever) I'll have some funds to play with.
QUOTE (TorbenEskerod @ Oct 2 2007, 01:21 PM)
I always try to give my clients something extra, something they don’t expect, and something they did not even think off, something I want the client to have.
I don’t think luck has anything to do with it - just the work - it is as simple as that.
Torben
A famous golfer [Lee...?] overheard someone comment after a tricky putt, 'Wow, lucky shot!' His response, 'It's funny, the more I practice, the luckier I get.'
Torben obviously 'practices' a lot.
samuel_js
Oct 4 2007, 08:51 AM
QUOTE (SeanPuckett @ Oct 3 2007, 11:35 PM)
At the top of my game at age 39, I quit my last career. Independent, sought after, earn-as-much-as-I-want sort of thing. I threw it in the toilet so I could get my soul back -- with photography. Like my artist's bio says, I smile a lot more frequently these days. I think that's the key, ronno. Keep a roof over your head, keep your family fed, and make sure you smile more days than not. That's what success
really is.
I must confess that sometimes I feel that nasty old frantic feeling, but I try and take a step back and have a walk or a beer or something and go out and take some pictures and walk around in the sunshine, and it's all better again.
Sean, how old were you when you quit your old carrer? Did you have this feeling... "maybe it's too late to even try"? I've been photographing since '87 but I entered the proffesional field just a few months ago. I started my bussiness etc, but I still work with music beside the photo work. Now photography is getting more space in my life and I'm thinking about deditate everything to it. That's what I really want. But there's a lot of things to think about of course. 33 years old, wife, a boy, nice apartment and car...
David WM
Oct 4 2007, 08:57 AM
They move on, maybe stockbrokers, real estate, whatever. I think the point is that enthusiasm and passion is the recepie and when that is gone, so are you.
In a lot of businesses your network is critical. It sounds like the work your getting at the moment is largely fueled by the network you have and your age has a bit to do with that.
In most pursuits people quit. People change their minds or their circumstances change and maybe the business they have developed doesn't suit their lifestyle choices anymore. I don't see any reason why the quality of your work cannot continue to improve as you age if that is what you want to achieve and work at it. Its not like we are sports people who have a definite use by date, the barrier is a mental one. I think the population as a whole is doing more at a later age nowadays anyway.
Don't forget to enjoy the moment too.
cheers
David
QUOTE (ronno @ Oct 4 2007, 12:17 AM)
You are making my point. There are a few older stars, but for every one of them, there are thousands who are not stars, and not working anymore. What have they moved on to?
rainer_v
Oct 4 2007, 09:12 AM
QUOTE (samuel_js @ Oct 4 2007, 01:51 PM)
Sean, how old were you when you quit your old carrer? Did you have this feeling... "maybe it's too late to even try"? I've been photographing since '87 but I entered the proffesional field just a few months ago. I started my bussiness etc, but I still work with music beside the photo work. Now photography is getting more space in my life and I'm thinking about deditate everything to it. That's what I really want. But there's a lot of things to think about of course. 33 years old, wife, a boy, nice apartment and car...
Photography is my second career also.
My first was music, i wrote many years film-music and produced. long time my hearth was 100% in this but the last years i felt in a way i did not liked. i have had early success starting with 28 years, and 10 years later i felt that i had moved myself in a dead road,- feeling isolatd and repeating my own stylistic. although my income and my projects were not bad i decided to stop,- i also was really fed of of work for television, films and art directors....
i stopped with app. 40 years, took some time to think about how i would like to go on and started afterwards to shoot my first portfolio of architecture. i was running three months around to get first jobs, but i got my first assignements and fast they grew up a little bit and the things started to run somehow from alone. this sounds too easy,- not from alone, but much easier than ever in music. projects grew and grew, exactly in the speed that i felt able to fullfill them.
i felt great after this move and maybe its a part of this experience, that i am not frightened for my business future. it gives me selfconfidence to see that i can do other things as i believed, because all my life before i thought that music is all i can do and so i have to go on with it to live in a good way.
SeanPuckett
Oct 4 2007, 11:33 AM
QUOTE (samuel_js @ Oct 4 2007, 08:51 AM)
Sean, how old were you when you quit your old carrer? Did you have this feeling... "maybe it's too late to even try"?
39. (Two years ago.)
And no, why would it be too late to try? Does age really have anything to do with being unsuccessful in photography? Personally, I'd like some more grey hair -- the grinning professor look really helps a lot (as our host undoubtedly knows).
mahleu
Oct 4 2007, 11:44 AM
QUOTE (SeanPuckett @ Oct 4 2007, 06:33 PM)
And no, why would it be too late to try? Does age really have anything to do with being unsuccessful in photography? Personally, I'd like some more grey hair -- the grinning professor look really helps a lot (as our host undoubtedly knows).
Grey hair can definately be an advantage. My lecturer and I shot the same high profile music event on consecutive nights, he was free to shoot as long as he wanted, I was restricted to 3 songs...
jonstewart
Oct 4 2007, 12:22 PM
QUOTE (jjj @ Oct 4 2007, 01:38 PM)
A famous golfer [Lee...?] overheard someone comment after a tricky putt, 'Wow, lucky shot!' His response, 'It's funny, the more I practice, the luckier I get.'
Torben obviously 'practices' a lot.
The original is attributed to Samuel Goldwyn, when someone suggested to him he was a very lucky man, he replied 'The harder I work, the luckier I get'
It's one of my favourite quotes, and motivational as well!
The golfer was Gary Player (prob others as well).
Taquin
Oct 5 2007, 02:50 AM
Well, it is simply not my nature to write seriously, but this thread by those who encompass light, resonates deeply. I left a highly paid career as a sales manager. Looking back now, had I not done so, living in an environment that did not value creativity would have broken my spirit.
So at 30 I started learning classical guitar in the clear understanding that I would probably not make enough to retire, but if I was doing what I loved, would that matter? So now at 55 (I think), I am teaching music privately 40-odd weeks of the year and to my surprise being in demand enough to live modestly well. The other 12 weeks? Playing at weddings and with my Spanish dance group, riding old bicycles and attending Victorian balls.
I have discovered photography again (having had a darkroom and shooting b&w in my teens), but oh the expense! and oh the learning curves! But the desire for expression cannot be stifled and certainly nothing else in this world gets me up before dawn. So who can say where it will lead? I hope in a few years it will start to pay for itself.
My point is that soon I will be dead. Fifty minutes or fifty years, my life will seem like a puff of smoke. And then when I am talking with the Giver of Life about the things of the heart, it won't be the things I have tried and not succeeded at (I am quite ok about these), it will be the gifts He has given me that were unused, and and the things that I didn't try to do, that I will be asking forgiveness for.
So now with the camera, as I did with the guitar, I will do it and do it and do it, and not compare myself with anyone else, but be happy with who I am now and where I am now.
David
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please
click here.