Mamiya finally updated their .com website, now it actually looks like a living breathing company. Also, am I the only one who thinks it's about time they update the AFDII too? In the AFDIII I'd like to see a better AF, faster flash synch and a rechargeable battery. What improvements would you like to see?


Cheers

talking of which the us new site makes no mention of the zd camera.
robert white here in the uk, the main dealer for the zd camera has now taken it off its main page and seems to be reducing the amount of site coverage...is it being phased out, replaced?...anyone know.
It would be such a shame if the all in one medium format digital camera market died...for those that want the improved quality at larger print sizes, etc they give over 35mm digital alternatives but in the more compact dslr styling

Marc

I guess that the Mamiya ZD camera is being replaced by the "Mamiya 645ZD", which is a kit with 645AFD II body and ZD back. This new combination (with lens) is being sold for less that the ZD body (with lens) at places like Robert White, so I doubt that many people would go for the less upgradable, less flexible, more expensive integral body option.

Between this and the Pentax 645 digital being in limbo, it seems that the time for integrated DMF bodies has not yet come, if it ever does.

Yes that sounds very likely.
A shame as just as in the film days there was always room and need for cameras such as the Mamiya 6 and 7 rangefinders alongside the more traditional shaped medium format cameras with their enhaced portability etc.
With the way this seems to be going it will certainly be interesting when we start to see actual large scale lightjet / lambda print comparisons (100x100cm etc) between similarly priced cameras such as the afd645zd combo and the 1dsmkIII when shot at the lowest iso, tripod, best possible lenses (brand specific or otherwise) in landscape style image situations with distant detail etc...perhaps they will show no need for a zd or similar medium format all in one (but I doubt it as bigger physical sized sensors do seem to give better detail, etc. at the very large print sizes.)

Marc

PLEASE bring an accu version indeed.
I'm having big problems with my recharchable penlites.
They last 2 days and then it's over.

2 things on the site I noticed:

1. "Compatible with Mamiya 645AF*/AFD/AFD II and Mamiya RZ67 Pro IID
In addition to these current models, adapters will soon be available for older RZ67, RB67, viewfinder cameras and more"

viewfinder cameras? like the 6 or 7? or VIEW cameras?


2. "22 Mega Pixel CCD
The 36mm x 48mm Dalsa CCD imaging sensor contains 22 million active pixels (total 4008h x 5344v). The 14 bit A/D (Analog to Digital) conversion provides exceptional true-to-life color accuracy."

no mention of 12 bit anything? how does that work?

Hi
Before we jump to conclusions take a look at the Mamiya company web site. http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=e...6lr%3D%26sa%3DG

Ehhh... in all respect to all of you above... lets stick to facts rather than fiction and spreading of false rumors:

#1: 27-28 Sept is indicated as holiday on Mamiya Japan website per link aboce, in spite of seemingly bad translation of Goodle in above. I do not know for sure of holidays in Japan, but across Asia (I know China and Korea for facts) midautum holiday is celebrated around the dates preannounced on Mamiya Japan website.

#2: Re: Robert White, is it strange for a retailer to after a very long period not to hold Mamiya ZD camera on their front page??? How many retailers hold a single camera on their front page as they did with the ZD camera???

#3 There have been more problems associated with the ZD back than the ZD camera, then why would there be any plan to discontinue it??

#4: Why would the ZD back replace the ZD camera? The ZD camera is not sold in USA (sorry), but in rest of world. USA market is not dictating rest of world, rather it has in past been clear the USA agent was at problem for not offering any ZD whatseoever on USA shores. Personally I should add that I am extremely impressed by the user interface on the ZD camera which beats Nikon and Canon hands down. It is simple and photographically aimed. The ZD camera also handles far better than the AFDII+ZD back which I also tried, and with seemingly far less glitches.

I hold lots of respect for Mamiya who have provided us with the fine ZDs at competitive prices, and in their efforts in working to sort out any glitches that their first MF digitals have encountered.

I think it is appropriate not to spread false rumors on their accounts, although seemingly in another post a Phase agent tried do so by never presenting what their product was superior at with ISO50-125 and less than 5 seconds which is what most of us frequently shoot!

Regards
Anders

Anders, I have a couple of questions or remarks.
If so many have sold why no one has reported more on them? B&H got one shipment in and never got anymore (BACK)
I really do not understand why more people have not reported on the ZD back or camera?
Don't you find that pretty strange?
Your about the only one that reports in or defends the ZD.
Also, Why in the heck would anybody want to get locked into the ZD camera,not back. It makes no sense at all. No upgrade for the future and you cannot use the camera with film or any other back in the future.
Also if Mamiya's only strong point right now is the ZD back and camera, why would they take it off their mainpage?
I was also wondering why the Phase guy did not report back on the ZD vs Phase one at lower times and ASA. You might have a point there for sure.
In any case I hope they get their act together. I was written to by the Head guy at Mamiya USA and he told me in October there should be a whole new shipment of ZD Backs but so far I have not seen anything.
I have to admit I am really wondering about the ZD as it is a great price and I never shoot above asa 100 But nothing so far has made me want to buy it except the price point, But I cannot only on that as all the earlier problems threw me off for sure.
My clients cannot except any errors in my files or shoots because as we all know it is impossible to have to reshoot because of Purple worms and such.
All I can say is that I have the Aptus 22, phase P25/30 strong in my head right now and Mamiya will have to prove their product is Solid before I waste 7K. I would rather pay double and have a proven product like Leaf or Phase.
One other guy here in these forums who is always saying he has the ZD back and likes never seems to post any pictures so I find it hard to believe he even has one.
I think there are about 2 or 3 people in these forums with the ZD camera or back but No where else does anybody even talk about the ZD back. No other forums I know of. And Every Link to the mamiya camera from you guys in here is from the original news or review of 2-3 years ago.
There is nothing about it on any forum or website that is current that I know of.
Hopefully some one can prove me wrong but so far I have found only reviews from years ago.
That should tell you something!
Snook

What??? I think I was one of the first to post here about the ZD camera, including several sample images. Several others have too. I have owned a ZD camera for more than a year. Its pretty popular in Europe. I have said before and repeat now that I rate the ZD camera very highly.

As for reviews, Professional Photographer in the UK recently ran an article on a photographer who was using a ZD and raved about how good it was. Michael has done his own ZD reviews and you can read them right here on this site.

You must pay better attention

Quentin

Hi Snook!




Michael wrote a review on Mamiya ZD camera here on LL in march 2007 and you'll find it in review-archive in alphabet M. It was mostly positive feedback if I remember correctly.





I think this is no different from locking oneself in Nikon-camera, Canon-camera or Whateveron-camera. As long as the ZD-camera is able to produce excellent quality images for someone's needs and feels good in his/her hands then why not? The handling is different from 645Afd+back, the UI is reportedly excellent and many people have been pleased in real-world situations using the ZD-camera.


I don't have one yet, probably never will have one, no intentions to any direction here, just my 0,02€.

Cheers,
J

Any views or news on whats meant by or hidden behind "viewfinder cameras"?

Thanks!

-h

snook,
your comment about B&H only getting one shipment of ZD backs in is incorrect. They have actually had a couple of shipments-but every time they come in , they are sold out within 2 hours.( and yes i was in the store the last time a shipment came in and they were gone within about an hour.) if you have signed up for product notification, there is a lag between the time that items come in and when e-mail notifications go out. you may not get a notice if the item sells out quickly. i have no idea how many b&h gets in at a time....
the zd back is on the mamiya homepage...as to why the zd camera is not, that is a question for mamiya....as for U.S reviews, the current issue of Picture Magazine has a very positive review of the Zd back.
Mamiya's marketing of the ZD here in the U.S has been a bit slow but some of that may be tied to getting their dealer /retail network together: the first corporate sponsored print ads for the back (that i have seen) and the new lenses are just appearing in the November issues of the photography magazines. The back bone of most review sites and even most photo publications are DSLR's and point and shoots...There is little coverage of medium and large format gear to begin with.
As for why more people may not be posting on the web- could be that people don't want to be asked to produce samples and files or see their technique be scrutinized and ridiculed. After watching the way that some people responded to some of frank d's posts on his Zd back experiences, why would anyone else in their right mind subject themselves to this! and especially since they are not being paid by mamiya as a marketing rep or product ombudsperson or going to gain financially if someone decides to buy the back because of their "review."
the reasons that their was no follow-up from on the comparison you referenced, you may want to go back and read dave gallagher's post here:
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=19700
as for your comment about the back vs. the camera, no current dslr is upgradable, so imo, the zd camera is basically like making the decision to shoot with any other dslr.

err..all I did was ask!

I think Mamiya doesn`t have the means to update their AFDII. They must sell some ZD-Backs first.

My only wish would be: a better finder. I recently bought an AFD and shot some slide films to see if this camera system could be a base for my future digital system. The only problem for me remained the finder. Even with the screen for manual focussing I can not tell the exact point of focus.

With a Hasselblad H I could. I just bought one on Ebay to test it against the AFD for my personal needs.

When I believe in the helpful hints in this forum, the over priced Hasselblad H lenses are in no way better than the Mamiya lenses. I´d rather like myself getting along with the AFD because it would save me a lot of money and give me a 28mm which I won´t get with a H1 and a Leaf back.

But I simply think Mamiya won´t do a redesign of their whole finder system. I think they are not even aware of the problem and think working on a better finder in the days of AF is useless.

With the original 1984 Pentax 645 I can focus precise. Shame on Mamiya for not doing any better on this (thus being released in 1999). I generally like their "open system" and "reasonably priced" attitude a lot more than Hasselblads "draw as much money as we can out of our customers". But if they are the only company who cares about a good finder I´ll go with them.

I do not know what B&H your talking about but ,I have a great relationship with them (NY) and buy over 5K a month from them and Have e-mailed them and have been on the list. They have not gotten any more in. They got one maybe 2 shipments in SEVERAL months ago and have not received any more. So your information is wrong. That has been verified by the MAC head of Sales for the ZD to me in an e-mail.
They are supposed to be sending out a batch this month but I have not heard anything.
Also if their were so many sales in Europe, More people would be Posting some where on the Net, So I think you are wrong there also.
Quentin, Your just the guy I was talking about in this thread. What happened to those samples you said you were going to post.
Also comparing the ZD and Canon, Nikon is not going to happen. They are for totally different markets.
And you guys talk of one or two reviews... That is not very many for the large market there is.
IF the ZD was "actually" as good as some of the higher $$ backs, You bet there would be a lot more post.
AS far as Frank's report. There is no doubt in my mind that he was trying to get something for his reviews from Mamiya. And it is no coincidence that he ended up not buying one and finally went with Leaf for double the money. He even states this.
Purple worms and the tethered problem has not been solved from what I have read in these and other forums.
So I beg to differ.
I do however think with the soon to be released Canon 1DsMIII that the ZD will either die or Hopefully they will invest in a ZDII, Otherwise they are dead in the water with the Other Back manufacturers Lowering there prices recently.
Just like always the same 2-3 people posting here. So it makes me wonder.
I think Mamiya is making a grave marketing error by not responding to the Purple worms and tethered problem.
They have not even assumed that is exist. which is an error. At least Canon steps up to the plate and admits there are errors/bugs and fixes them.
I have already bought a Mamiya AFDII with several lens and am debating between a Phase and Leaf at the moment, But if Mamiya could get it together and really had a decent product I think they could enter easily into the market, But that has not happened so far.
I guess time will tell.
I am in no way bashing the ZD, contrarily I would like to see it live. But from what I have seen and read nothing has changed.
Snook

Try this thread
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....11724&hl=mamiya

and the link to an image I posted in August 2006, shortly after I purchased the ZD

http://www.pbase.com/image/64654543/original

and this not long after

http://www.pbase.com/dougas_freer/image/65081388

All you need to do is perform a search...

Quentin

the first in stock of the zd back hit B&h the last week in july...they were gone in very short order....three weeks or so later i was in the store at the mf counter, when the sales person indicated they had gotten some in that morning (how many ?) and they were already gone...As i live and work in nyc, there is hardly a week that goes by that i am not in B&H for something. so no my information is actually not wrong. Your post indicated there was only one shipment, i simply indicated there were a couple--not just one.
if i remember correctly, frank had a loaner and actually did purchase the zd, but when he began having problems with the unit he purchase, (he had returned the demo) he approached his dealer and was able to work out getting his money back.
canons record of steppin up to the plate as of the last two years or so is kind of spotty: stepped up to the plate on the 24-105 flare issue, but there has been silence on the issues which many report having with the 50L; and lets not talk about the current af issues with the 1d3 ...sometimes when companies don't have answers, there is a measured response if you get one at all until they have something definitive to say- not unusual, but not helpful.
i don't think anyone is comparing the zd camera to canon or nikon in terms of performance or capability: i know that i certainly was not. As a mf digital shooter as well as a canon shooter, i am well aware of the pluses and minuses of both systems. the fact is that the ZD camera is a "non upgradable" camera---same as any of the dslr's currently out there. Many people have spent $8 grand on a non upgradable Dslr--for some a little extra $ for a sensor twice the size may be attractive. this is someting that each buyer has to evaluate for him or herself. While i happen to agree with your preference for the back set up over the integrated camera, some may prefer a more streamline solution.
you ask for reviews- and two or three of us cited some recent activity: i can't change the fact that the primary interest that the majority of publications have with respect to the camera market is with dslr's and in particular the rivalry that pits canon and nikon against one another. the reviewers-(publications ) know where their ad revenue is coming from and they know what the majority of the public that buys/reads their publications want to know about. Unfortunately mf is not on the radar screen of many and represents a significantly smaller slice of the market.

Hey How are you..:+}
Well I do not want to get in an argument, But You have posted reviews that are pretty old and the 2 or 3 examples here are of trees or Some sky line. That is it.
Not much portrait or fashion. Are just Landscapers using it at the moment?
Well the fact is that there is VERY little if any information about it.
Also I never said they came in one time and if I did I restated that a couple of times meaning maybe twice at most they were in at B&H.
certainly there is not much about on the net about the ZD really.
So that makes many wonder what is going on.
Like I said I probably will being going with a Leaf aptus 22 so it really does not matter for me. It was just curiosity really and maybe hoping it would be better.
Thanks for the information.
Snook

That's hell of a budget. 5K x 12 = $60,000 a year on purchases. With purchase like that, B&H should let you in on everything....including partial ownership.

Hi
http://www.montalbetticampbell.com/#mi=2&p...=8&p=1&a=0&at=0

Both images of Shane Watson were shot with the ZD camera @ iso 50 developed in RD. I have a cloud library that I mainly shoot with the ZD over the 5D because of the DR. I also shoot with the Aptus 22 & @ iso 50 in the studio they are very close. However when LR will be tethered to the ZD which I heard about 3 months ago from Foto Care the the value of the ZD will increase.

Snook and others,

Snook I know you have thought of the ZD back for quite some time now. Why not buy/try the ZD to see if it works for you? If it works it will save $$$ money over the Leaf or Phase. From what I understand B&H has good return policy. That is also a way to ensure that you get a ZD back that do not have any problems with it.

Lets face it, Mamiya is smaller than Nikon and Canon. I am just back from travel on my vacation today and last I heard from my agent was a couple of weeks ago. Around that time they said that Mamiya was informed and was working on the problems.

ZD vs. DSLR -
Whether we compare the ZD to DSLR or not depends on our shooting and budget. Personally I do compare to that. I do not like the backs because they are bulky. Likewise I am not interested in spending more on a camera than the ZD because buying the ZD camera was already stepping up in $$ from D200. The ZD does seem to excel over anything that has been posted of photos from 1Ds Mk3 and D3 as far as ISO50-125 and DR + darkest/lightest regions. Do a search on all those three cameras and review samples. It would be great if any of those were better or close, because DSLRs come with other advantages such as speed and low noise at much higher ISOs.

ZD Reviews -
Why not more on ZD? It seems like 95% of internet is dominated by USA sites and the ZD back is just recent available in USA. Also as pointed out in above it is MF and not DSLR or point and shoot. Thus not what is most of sales for webpages or magazines. Per my knowledge, LL is the forum with most on MF, at least based on posts per day.

ZD Camera vs. ZD back -
That depends on preferences. The ZD back allows you to switch back or replace back. The ZD camera does not. On other hand, the ZD camera feels much nicer at least in my hands and has the best user interface that I have seen on any digital camera period. It is worth checking out for anyone who is in an area where it is available (seems anywhere except in USA). The ZD camera does not consist of two pieces as does the ZD back with AFDII. This to me seems is benefit with the ZD camera because the ZD back+AFDII comes with an additional joint through which dust can penetrate and a contact between back and AFD camera that shall be clean at all times. The hollow void chamber of the AFDII is also much larger than the one in the ZD camera and thus a larger space to keep clean. Granted, to upgrade the ZD camera it needs to be replaced. So what? Is there much difference in cost? What of compared to 1Ds Mk II/III? Per my experience the ZD camera feels rather lovely to shoot with. Unlike Nikon and Canon DSLRs that feels like complex computers in their user interface, the ZD camera handles like a DSLR and feels like a real camera, very photographically oriented. Of course it is slower than a DSLR because it is a medium format handling SLR.

Samples of ZD -
There are more Leaf and Phase backs out there because they have been out longer, thus more users of such brands. Also, there is more info on Canons and Nikons because they sell higher volumes than MF. Any other reasons? More people than me have certainly posted in forums: Quentin, Michael Ezra, Stefan Marquardt, Frank Doorhof, Frank Richardson, Denis Montalbetti to name a few here at LL (all have been very helpful ). For model photos propably Frank Doorhof has posted the very best. Before my purchase I read all I could find on internet on the ZD, searching not only LL, but all I could find on internet period, including also Chinese, Japanese, Dutch etc writings using Google! To be frank, I think all I say in this post is already available here on LL, at least near all of it, just search and read.

Limitations -
Something that shall be said of the ZD camera and ZD back is that they are limited to 50-125 ISO for very high quality results, and preferably need good light. To be frank, these are what I experience as limitations for some of my shooting. So yes, I am keenly reading of the 1Ds Mk 3 also, but... I do not like white blobs at sunset for a sun... just to mention one example, nor near pure black as shadows. Yet... we shall see when more examples are available from the 1Ds Mk 3 (yet its user inferface seem to literally suck in comparison, too many steps!).

Attached Samples to my Post -
Attached are three photos and a crop from one, of an amateur model shoot I joined in Shanghai the other weekend. The light conditions were not good. It was a bit rainy and I was really struggling for light with slow shutters & HANDHELD. Thus I took my chance to push the ZD and shot attached photos at ISO160 and doing my best to hold camera very still, supporting my arms on anything when I got the chance. Where dark the shots came out rather noisy, but those ones still look ok to me in small size. Do bear in mind that I am an amateur and that I until now have less than 600 exposures on my ZD camera! The girl in window was shot with the 55-110 wide open and remaining ones with the 80 f/1.9 manual focus lens at wide open. The 80mm f/1.9 lens is awesome: cheap, light weight and super optics. I focused by moving camera instead of using focus ring, simple. I guess this lens corresponds to a 50mm f/1.0 on 35mm terms... Ah yah, here we go again... I am posting photos with chance of being executed! Check out the scrutinization of my entire photographic hobby and person when I posted on Dpreview that I sold my D200 because I never liked it, and was considering the ZD. Absurd. I only post my experience, but not all appreciate... In regards to ZD, the lenses are top notch but lighter in weight and for most part cheaper than Nikon of Canon equivelents, at least in Asia.

Apart from the limitation of 50-125 ISO and the problem I have found with my sensor I am very pleased with the ZD. That problem is still to be corrected by my agent. What has delayed it is simply me living in Korea and not being able to send it out of this country because they here require an export license when one sends a camera exceeding value 2000 usd out of Korea, absurd but true! I will get the problem rectified before end of this month when I will visit my agent same time as I go on a business trip. I feel they support me, which is different from what I felt from Nikon. Nikon was just as they do business.

Someone mentioned a ZD II. Why? The ZD back is brand new. The best that can happen is that all problems are corrected and that Mamiya update firmware so that ISO up to 400 is fully useable to high quality! Add to that wishlist that they come out with a manual focus stepped down metering 28mm lens that is cheap and low weight. The current 28mm is too expensive. Well something like a manual focus stopped down metering 20mm (equal to 14mm for 35mm format) would be awesome... dream...

Woops, long post (and wording corrected after work)! I should add that actual focus for my photography is landscapes and people living traditional lives on travels. The model shoot was just for fun

Regards
Anders

Do you bother reading anything anyone posts here? One link to a full-size example I just posted was a food shot. Anders has posted portraits. People try to be helpful but your replies ignore it.

sheesh...

Quentin

Ideed there is not much on the ZD here.... One poster even took away his two pictures of a young woman after some critique (critique on camera faults, pictures were fine otherwise).

Strange... for it was plenty posts when I searched and researched before purchase a few months ago...

Perhaps check following names:

Quentin
Michael Ezra
Stefan Marquardt
Frank Doorhof
Frank Richardson
Denis Montalbetti
BernardLanguillier
Anders_HK

I am sure if you search you find my topic on ZD reviews... but here it is:
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....topic=17333&hl=

"One poster even took away his two pictures of a young woman after some critique" - Who can blame? I am getting tired also.

Rgds

I do not know who this company is, but I received today a promo from
MAC Group
8 Westchester Plaza
Elmsford, New York 10523
they say in their promo e-mail that they have "Mamiya 645ZD. Now Digital. 22 Megapixel System. Now Available"
Looks quite legit to me. Their return e-mail is;
MAC Group [MAC_Group@mail.vresp.com]

MAC=mamiya america corporation which is also somehow related to Leaf or something...
basically US distributor of mamiya

Isn't the MAC group the distributor of Mamiya, Profoto, Toyo, Sekonic..........

I just got the same Mail today..
looks like they are going to start shipping more out. They were waiting all the red tape with being the rep of Leaf as well which is basically competition. I think that was all the hold up in the USA. And hopefully fixing some bugs. But I guess we'll see soon after they start selling them..:+}
Snook

I ordered a ZD back from Adorama about three weeks ago.
I received an email yesterday from them saying it will ship this week.
I will post sample shots as soon as I can.

Thanks for making the effort!

...and Frank gave up on his because he couldn't see a solution to the problems forthcoming from Mamiya, if I remember right! (Now shooting Leaf, I believe)

Snook and others,

Mamiya recently received a shipment of new firmware backs from Japan about a week ago. I was told they're making their way into the channels. There's been a bunch of tweaking to the firmware to fix the purple noise and other issues. I returned my ZD back to MAC after it shut down in the middle of shoot a few weeks ago. They swapped the back for a new one with zero questions asked. Unfortunately, I've been traveling and on shoots for the last week so I haven't had an opportunity to test the new rig. If what the techs at MAC say is true the new backs should have the kinks worked out. The jury is still out on if this is the case.

One more thing, I started a running review in another thread about the ZD back a few weeks ago but after taking an undeserved beating from you and a few others I pulled my posts and decided not to waste my time. I'd be happy to post images and relay my experience with the ZD but IMO this forum seems to be populated by folks who would rather bitch and moan than put their money where their mouth is.

It's really a shame because with the disinfo and voodoo that seems to be the norm in the world of medium format digital a forum where WORKING photographers can share their experiences is needed now more than ever.

Bob,

Good post!

I understand what you say. I am tired too...

Good to see you back! Will be nice to hear what you say of the updates to the back. Would be good if they have extended the usable (low noise) ISO50-125 into higher ISO. My ZD camera gets noisy at above ISO 125 in dark regions where not much light. Thanks!

Regards
Anders

Hi Bob,
Thanks for the info. Can you explain the problems you had in more detail? Were you using the AFD or AFDII? I ask only b/c I have had intermittent issues with my ZD back (though no purple worms yet) and wanted to see if the problems I've experienced may be the result of the old firmware.

Did you go through your Mamiya rep or directly with MAP?

Thanks.

-Josh

Let me also add some points.

A lot of people scan for problems and post only that, and it's a shame that they scanned my review for that.

I have mentioned MANY MANY times that I needed a solution within a few days and because Mamiya could not GARANTUE Me a working back within a week I made the switch, which did cost me more money than I planned.
And yes the Leaf is better but it's over here almost 3x as expensive.

The problems WILL be solved by Mamiya was my guarantee for the purple stamp like problems, I don't know for the noise, my problem was MUCH MORE PRESENT than noise.

The only question mark for me is the tethered shooting to a pc which they could NOT guarantee me to work, so that's the MAIN reason I made the switch, tethered shooting to a PC is 99% of my work.

So please take note....
I still stand behind my review of the ZD back as a GREAT unit for a GREAT price.
I had some bad luck with my second back (first one was wonderful) but that is being solved (or is already solved).

Greetings,
Frank

From an ongoing discussion on photo.net, I have learned that ALPA12+ZD is around the corner: http://www.mamiya.co.jp/alpa/alpa_c.html. Interesting (also wrt M7D).