Initial Products:
• Leaf AFi 7 (Body, Back, W.L Finder) - $35,995
• AFi Body with W/L Finder (AFi Body with W/L Finder can only be purchased by customers already investing in a Leaf AFi System. Proof of previous purchase is required.) - $5,995
• Super Angulon 50 2.8 AFD HFT PQs - $5,142
• Xenotar 80 2.8 AFD PQs - $3,098
• Tele-Xenar 180 2.8 AFD PQ - $5,864
• 60-140 Variogon AFD PQS - $6,916

Products To Follow:
• Leaf AFi 5 (Body, Back, W.L Finder) - $27,995
• Leaf AFi 6 (Body, Back, W.L Finder) - $25,995
• 90 degree Prism Finder - $1,341
• Tele-Xenar 150 4 AFD HFT PQS - Price To Be Announced

If that isn't an "illegal tying arrangement," I don't know what is.

http://www.aurorawdc.com/arj_cics_tying_arrangements.htm

What is the price to switch my H mount for the new AFI mount on my Aptus 75?

What about ship dates?

I really need to buy a new camera by the end of the year, will I stay H mount and buy a used or find a new H mount if still available or switch to AFI?

signed

sick of waiting

p.s. Leaf
I am still waiting for a new gain utility in V11?

Deleted

Thanks for the initial pricing, Tech Talk. Thursday came early! Think I'm good for now, at least until the AFi II and 44MP back show up. John, I think we are dead in the water for converting an A75 to AFi mount. Still need to see if there is a Leaf AFi promotion.

David

I find this to be VERY expensive.

I am especially shocked by the price they intend to charge for their lenses - the 80 mm at 3000 US$ is totally crazy, the 50 mm at 5140 US$ is un-reasonnable as well.

Cheers,
Bernard

I have to agree Bernard, an H mount camera might be cheaper for me. I would also have to change the mount on my Cambo Wide DS.

I agree. Crazy prices
And we should expect even highter prices in Europe. Oh my...

In part this is the result of the extreme low rates of the US dollar compared to the Euro. Don't forget that these products actually come from a country where all workers are properly insured against health risks and where all living standards fall within the top ten of the world. So, in Europe these items are already costly, but when you have a very weak currency to pay with you might have a financing problem.

However, there are so many Rolleiflex lenses floating around on the used market that you might still get yourself a good deal. Do not forget that the optical properties of the AFD lenses are exactly the same as the non-AFD's. All they did was removing the aperture ring as the aperture can be set from the camera's interface.

Regarding the 50mm mentioned: that is a very special lens for it's extreme aperture (f2.8 for a 6x6 WA lens!), the use of automated floating elements and the shutter speed up to 1/1000s. This really is a very exotic design and it cost years before it came out initially. A standard 50mm Zeiss Distagon will cost less than half. Used it will even be cheaper. (I recently saw one in mint condition for EUR 350.-) I'd suggest to those with a limited budget to start collecting system 6000 lenses before the used prices go up again.

Click to view attachment

Deleted - Couldn't get PDF to attach.

So does this mean a person with a 75s cannot buy an AFi body to put it on? Does one need to buy a complete system?? Will the Hy6 be the same way?

The AFi 7 (back) is not the same configuration as the A75 or A75s. It is not adaptable to the AFi platrform. I'm not even clear if the AFi back has its own battery or is powered from the AFi grip. We'll know soon, I'm sure.

What I want to know is the upgrade price from 75S/H. I do not think that there would be a long waiting list of photogs ready to buy the complete new system for $50+K.
Andre

The Sinar Hy6 can be purchased separately, as well as all existing accessories and lenses. Nobody is forced to buy a system with the back.

Best regards,
Thierry

Your PDF attachment works fine for me. I've been checking out the dealer's web-site.

Mamiya sells their excellent 80 f2.8 for less than 1.000 US$. I have been living in Japan for 10 years, and I have never had the feeling that the workers were not properlly insured or that the living standard was poor here...

The strong Euro certainly contributes to these outrageous prices, but even with a Euro 1.5 times weaker, the lens would still cost twice more than the Mamiya...

Either they are into milking their potential customers, or they have some serious re-thinking to do in terms of the way they design and produce.

Forgive me being frank, but anyone buying this lens at that price will be doing himself and all of us a huge disservice.

Cheers,
Bernard

I'm not saying it is not expensive, but you seem to forget that the Mamiya lens does not have an image circle covering a 6x6 frame, which makes the two completely different designs. Optically speaking. The Mamiya lens also does not have a carbon leaf shutter that goes up to 1/1000s. Nor does it have an electrical step-driven aperture mechanism which can set itself to a desired value on remote command. And last but not least: the numbers of lenses produced for the Rolleiflex cameras are only a fraction of the Mamiya numbers. As we all know prices decrease tremendously beyond certain production amounts. This class of cameras lives in a very different reality than Mamiyas do.

BTW: how many holidays does an average Japanese worker have each year? Germans have some 6 to 8 weeks each alltogether. It is also very easy to fire someone in Japan. This is nearly impossible in Germany, unless a judge allows you to.

Sinar prices seem more reasonable although Thierry did not quote lens prices. I assume all these prices are 'MSRP'. Remember 'Dealer Net' is subtantially lower. I would doubt anyone would pay the quoted prices we are seeing here.

I was about to answer excatly the same "reasons" for prices and differences between the lenses!

Thanks,
Thierry

1) The Mamiya 80mm Lens for 645 does not include a shutter. It starts with this price advantage.

2) When rolling out a new product of any kind, the price has to reflect the initial development cost in relation to the number of units you expect to sell. The Mamiya 80mm was introduced when the medium-format market was healthy and strong and the costs of development are likely long since recovered. The medium-format market is now weak and at a very low volume. A look at the price of the Mamiya 28mm will give an indication of this. This is also reflected in the AFi/Hy6 prices. A body with 90° prism is approaching $6,000 largely because of the anticipated volume and the need to recover development costs in a reasonable amount of time.

I do not have yet the lens prices for the US, but Greg King shall certainly publish them soon.

Thierry

I agree with the above ''huge disservice'', just remember that Mamiya is in the same boat with regards to their 28mm, probably the most expensive 28mm Lens today!!!

I think you have the wrong impression regarding the difference in dealer net and MSRP on the lenses from Leaf. You would likely be shocked at how close the two prices are. Expect to be quoted the prices that you've seen.

In a German newspaper I read that Sinar is dreaming of selling 200 Hy6 units each year. Worldwide. (Seems like a very low number to me, but it was quoted from Thomas Böringer, a Sinar spokesman.)

Click to view attachment

The Leaf and Sinar prices seem way off for the same item. Leaf must have known what the Sinar prices where going to run.

Makes you want to think, what is Leaf thinking!

I purchased 5 Rollei Schneider lenses second hand for $10K AUD.
A 40 Super Angulon+60 Curtagon+ 80/2 Xenotar+ 90ApoSymmarMakro+180/2.8 Tele-Xenar
To replace those new,it would cost close to$25K AUD.
I also have a 55 PCS tilt-shift coming that I paid $5K for.(A new one cost over $10KAUD)
O.K they are all manual,but all in perfect condition.
Anyhow,for my kind of work I prefer manual focus anyway.
Cheers,
Willem.

I'll wait a few years...or rent if I really need it.Time for me to work on those adapters for a M645!hahaha

OK, how about this one then:

http://www.yodobashi.com/enjoy/more/i/6841359.html

That is less that 1300 US$ actual price for a Hassy 80 mm f2.8 with leaf shutter in the lens.

Granted, it only covers 645, but is coverage really that much of an issue for such standard lenses?

Cheers,
Bernard

Well, there are only two 28 mm lenses out there, and they go for about the same price.

Besies, those lenses are really difficult to produce.

Cheers,
Bernard

Oh yes, Bernard, lens coverage is definitively an issue and requesting for a different design.

Best regards,
Thierry

Well, I am not doubting the fact that the Hassy 80 mm might not cover 6x6 at 2.8, but I am frankly not convinced that covering 6x6 with a 80 mm lens is a difficult task with modern optics.

I am aware of the differences between LF and MF lenses, and f22 is easy on lenses, but a Schneider 72 mm Super Angulon has a coverage of 226 mm @ f22. That's about exactly 3 times the size of 6x6.

Between 645 and 6x6, we are talking about a difference of about 1 cm diagonal. I assume that the mount of the Hy6 is a bit larger than that of the H system. More glass is needed, and that should translate into a higher cost, but the gap is just too huge to be justified by the technicalities IMHO.

But OK, I am not trying to convince you, just explaining you why I would never consider spending so much money on those lenses. I guess that 6x6 is overkill for me.

Regards,
Bernard

Another point is that nobody currently owns a digital back that comes even near 6x6 (with the exception of a few people that own the Dicomed bigshot).

Now, sure you can use film with it but how many will buy this body to use it with film? To buy it in anticipation for bigger sensors, maybe?

The Sinar prices seem pretty fair albeit on the high side. I just expected/hoped to see lower prices to put the system in the market as competition for the H system.

The H is widely seen as obscenely expensive but with these prices it appears to be moderately priced.

I am curious whether this system will really put the heat on Hasselblad, I think it will not. For me it makes the pricing of the H appear a bit more less ridiculous

Dear Dustback,

What are the prices of the H system (equivalent to the Sinar Hy6 bundle) in the USA (I remember that those are US published prices, as far as the Sinar prices are concerned)?

Then, does the H system include a "5-Year Hot Swap" within 24 hours of all components included?

Best regards,
Thierry

Lenses of the H system are roughly between 2800USD & 4000USD for the most expensive (1800 for the 80). Which appears to be less than stated here for Hy6 Lenses. Sure these are for 6x6 but most people will not be using it for that.

Prices of the H3D packages are around the same pricing (a little less even), difficult to say since most pricing of these are 'personalized'. List prices I have here are H3D39 at 32K, 22 at 26K and 31 at 25K. These prices were summer 2007 so not sure how they are now and as I said may vary per case.

I am quite sure they have no 5 year swap guarantuee which is indeed something I can really appreciate in the Sinar. That must give users a very comfortable feeling.

It still appears the Hy6/Afi will not be priced competitively compared to the H, IMO! I think that is what many people will be looking at. The H is already seen as way overpriced, now these systems come out with comparable pricing or even worse.

Yes, you get great warranty.

Hi!
The lenses seem to be expensive but if compared to the price differences between let's say Zeiss Distagon T* ZM 15mm f/2.8 for Leica M and similar focal length Voigtländer lens there is even larger difference. The Zeiss 15 is 1.5 times more expensive than Canon 14mm f/2.8 which is not considered a cheap lens either.

Cheers,
J

The Schneider or Zeiss lenses for the Rollei(Hy6) have their own signature.
I know a very well known fashion shooter that stays away from the H (Fuji) glass.
He prefers the Zeiss glass on his Contax 645.
Apparently the H glass flares like crazy when shooting into the light(sun)

See my previous post!
It doesn't have to be expensive!

I purchased 5 Rollei Schneider lenses second hand for $10K AUD.
A 40 Super Angulon+60 Curtagon+ 80/2 Xenotar+ 90ApoSymmarMakro+180/2.8 Tele-Xenar
To replace those new,it would cost close to$25K AUD.
I also have a 55 PCS tilt-shift coming that I paid $5K for.(A new one cost over $10KAUD)
O.K they are all manual,but all in perfect condition.
Anyhow,for my kind of work I prefer manual focus anyway.
Cheers,
Willem.

Sure Willem,

I have been told the Fuji glass stinks as well. Now I have been using it for a while and it isn't halve as bad as I expected.

I have images with the sun in it taken with the 80 which are really well without much flare (sure around the sun).

Sharpness of the 80 and 35 (sofar the only H lenses I have) are almost at par with my ZF's which are the sharpest lenses I have seen sofar.

The C lenses of Zeiss can be used on the H with an adapter so that can be cheap as well. For the people that want to use Zeiss on people.

I use manual focus most of the time as well but now and than it is great to be able to go lazy.

Anyway the Rollei glass is allegedly the very best and I am sure the Hy6/Afi glass will be as well.

It does come at a price though from the looks of it, which is steep. The Rollei system used to be a cheaper alternative than the H. This seems to be no longer the case in the future.

The cost of the Hy6/AFi glass is relative. Obviously for more dollars there should be a performance difference between them and the lenses they will be competing with in the market. There is also coverage differences between the lenses mentioned and producing a lens that has greater coverage bears more cost than a lens with smaller coverage. While to date there isn't a back that needs the coverage provided by the Hy6/AFi lenses, but should that come to be the case, the end user has bought an insurance policy of not needing to dig into the coffers again to arm themselves with suitable lenses.

For some the comparative market value of the Hy6/Afi glass will warrant the cost and others it won't. If it were simply an apples to apples comparison nobody makes the jump. Again, there needs to be performance differences illustrated and the customer needs to see some residual value in having lenses that provide a safety net for the possibility of sensors larger than a 645 frame.

For what it is worth, the 80 mm f2.8 can be bought in Japan under the Fuji brand for 1300 US$ street price all discount included.

Cheers,
Bernard

hasselblad 28mm - $3875
Mamiya 28mm - $5294

Prices from B&H, seems like a bit of a difference to me!

After looking at the impressive LCD in bright sunlight, I asked my local retailer how much for the H3DII bundle just this past Saturday. $30kUS. No 5-Year Hot Swap.

i'm kind of surprised about the "shock" regarding the prices of the schneider lenses for the Hy6/Afi. one of the first things i did months ago was to look at the prices of the Af lenses for the rollei 6008 af which fit the Hy6/afi online at B&H. i assumed, and i guess incorrectly so, that more people had looked at lens prices and understood these lenses are pretty large, heavy and expensive.

the interesting thing to me is that the hope/prediction that mf digital would become more affordable and would see an increase in appeal, seems to be threatened by the recent announcements of new product: between closed systems, a new body without digital serial communication, and three expensive
variants of the same body and super expensive lenses, i am not sure where MF digital is going.

This is why I thought Mamiya 28mm is the most expensive 28mm lens.

I rarely purchase equipment on-line, but when I did search 28mm Mamiya this is what I got Link $5,900

Tha H series is the most used by fashion photographers. The reason why a few fashion shooters stay away from Fuji glass is because it's almost too sharp for skin tones. But most of them know how to deal with it.
This is how a 35mm flares. 1/500 f.11. No filter at all. Not too bad I think.





The only problem I've seen with fuji glass is the 50-110 zoom's bokeh.
Rest of the H series are excellent. The H series has actually much better contrast than Zeiss.

A bit of a surprise for a few can be that the Contaxt/Zeiss glass is actually made in Japan. Just look at your lenses. Not german purity...

Zeiss have the name but not quite the edge anymore.

the schneider lenses for the Hy6/Afi/6008/... are the best lenses available....period....i have owned several and they easily beat even their zeiss equivalent (there are several zeiss/schneider lenses in the same focal lenght for the 6008)....as much as i love the mamiya 80mm 645, it is simply not in the same category...neither are the H lenses.....fuji made some amazing lenses for the 680 system that might be close, but the schneiders for rollei are totally above anything....add to that the stats: 1/1000 fastest shutter available from any lens, 6x6 coverage (comes in handy with T/S or on the X-act), 180/f2.8...any questions? nobody even tries to make lenses like that.....
and most of all: there are tons of used lenses out there for much better prices...snach them up now....
i am not sure why anyone would buy the body alone anyway (other then as a back-up) and i am sure if someone walked in and bought a Hy6 or AFi and a second body and some lenses.....i am sure someone is willing to make a deal....

You can also add the prices:

Super Angulon 50 2.8 AFD HFT PQs - $5,142
Xenotar 80 2.8 AFD PQs - $3,098 (this price for the kit lens? )
Tele-Xenar 180 2.8 AFD PQ - $5,864


14086$
That's what you pay only for three lenses.

Down here in Earth you can buy a complete medium-format-digital-kit for that or very near price, and you won't see loss of quality. But all depends on what you want to do with your money.

As much as I would like the new AFI camera for my Aptus back, it is just out of my price range. I guess i am now looking to stay H mount and get a hasselblad used or new.

I've got 9 Rollei lenses and I paid nothing like the prices above.

All you have to do is look around a bit and you'll find some real bargains.

Sorry, I don't want to get into most of this, but I don't understand the "coverage" isssue.

If the lens image circle is circular, and it covers 645, why does it not also cover 6x6?

The 645 is 56mm x 42mm, the 6x6 is 56mm x 56mm.

It really doesn't matter which "side" that 56mm fits on. It should fit horizontal or vertical within the circle.

Should really be no difference in coverage between the lenses?

Now digital only lenses for a 36x24 sensor are a different question.

Michael

MMurph, the diagonal of 56x42 is 70mm; the diagonal of 56x56 is about 79mm. So a lens for 645 has to cover a 70mm circle, and a lens for 6x6 has to cover a 79mm circle. That's the difference being discussed.