Hello.
I am pretty new on this forum. ( even posted it in the wrong forum ) And am interested (and reading) a lot about digital backs.
I want to buy an Alpa SWA with 35 and 47mm lens, but for the moment can't choose between two digital backs, the Sinar eMotion54 and the Aptus22.
Some of the differencess are obvious ( specifications from the websites), others maybe not( the user experience soem people on this forum have)
It's the same question concerning the software.
I'm used to working with lightroom, but how do these backs and their images work when imported in Lightroom?
I rented an Aptus 75 (22 was unavailable) with a Cambo wide DS, for a test, works perfect during the day of shooting ( interior and architecture), but handling the pictures afterwards is a slow proces in Lightroom.
But there are some features which I (seem to ) be missing in LC11.
I am wondering how & what the workflow of some of you is, concerning the sinar and the aptus.
from DB to finish.
And can some of you share their experience with these two backs.
Maybe there is someone who has experience with both?
The ruggedness, the handling, how fast or slow. The combination with Alpa ( there seem to be a lot of Alpa users with Leaf, why is that?)
The hightlight recovery and how the Brumbear tool works with the channels, does LC11 treat the highlights the same way?
I will use it mainly for interior-architecture, landscape & portrait (this with my trusted old hassy)
I regard both backs as high quality & still want to test the Sinar. So it would also be nice to know what points to focus on when testing? What to look for.
Thanks
Maarten.
Full Version: Alpa and a digital back..?
Luminous Landscape Forum > Equipment & Techniques > Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography
On the other board you wrote..
The screen of the 54LV is sh*t
but they all are I thnk the A22 is just sh*t bigger
The 54LV It is brighter than the E22 to be fair
It is hard to check sharpness because they always look 'out' on the screen on the back
Live view is tethered only on the 54LV
I had an E22 (same build as the 54LV) and although the buttons seem a bit wobbly the build I think is rock solid as is the internals - no probs with either back the E22 or the 54LV
I think the internal memory and user swappable mount make the the 54LV the winner over an A22
Both of these backs I think were 25ISO in the early firmwares, thier current sweetspot is 50-100, 200 at a push and 400 is a joke unlike later generation P30s,P45,75LVs etc
In terms of image quality I think they will yield identical results oncee you have a handle on the respective sofwares
S
QUOTE (meurten @ Nov 5 2007, 09:42 PM)
The screen of the aptus is fine, but I dislike the battery being sticking out under the back,and it's hard to tell how importent that is. Is the screen of the 54lv better now that it has LV?
And do you have any idea how sturdy the sinar is buils in comparison with the Leaf.
The changeable mount may be a plus, considering the Hy6 in the future. But for now it will be Hassy and Alpa.
And software... it's not my hobby to dig in to them especially as it always takes a while to get the best out of it, which is impossible when testing.
Maarten
And do you have any idea how sturdy the sinar is buils in comparison with the Leaf.
The changeable mount may be a plus, considering the Hy6 in the future. But for now it will be Hassy and Alpa.
And software... it's not my hobby to dig in to them especially as it always takes a while to get the best out of it, which is impossible when testing.
Maarten
The screen of the 54LV is sh*t
but they all are I thnk the A22 is just sh*t bigger
The 54LV It is brighter than the E22 to be fair
It is hard to check sharpness because they always look 'out' on the screen on the back
Live view is tethered only on the 54LV
I had an E22 (same build as the 54LV) and although the buttons seem a bit wobbly the build I think is rock solid as is the internals - no probs with either back the E22 or the 54LV
I think the internal memory and user swappable mount make the the 54LV the winner over an A22
Both of these backs I think were 25ISO in the early firmwares, thier current sweetspot is 50-100, 200 at a push and 400 is a joke unlike later generation P30s,P45,75LVs etc
In terms of image quality I think they will yield identical results oncee you have a handle on the respective sofwares
S
QUOTE (meurten @ Nov 5 2007, 09:42 PM)
Hello.
I am pretty new on this forum. ( even posted it in the wrong forum ) And am interested (and reading) a lot about digital backs.
I want to buy an Alpa SWA with 35 and 47mm lens, but for the moment can't choose between two digital backs, the Sinar eMotion54 and the Aptus22.
I am pretty new on this forum. ( even posted it in the wrong forum ) And am interested (and reading) a lot about digital backs.
I want to buy an Alpa SWA with 35 and 47mm lens, but for the moment can't choose between two digital backs, the Sinar eMotion54 and the Aptus22.
Marten
I am about to sell an Alpa XY / 35mm / Aptus 22 - if you are interested drop me an email under froesner@mac.com
Frank
Hi frank.
Sounds interesting.
I just dropped you an email on your mac account.
Maarten
Sounds interesting.
I just dropped you an email on your mac account.
Maarten
Hi morgan, thanks for the info.
It will probably take some getting used to checking the sharpness on the screen.
As some people said here on the forum I will get a laser distance meter, to at least not have to guess what distance it is, and hope ( but with Alpa Quality it should be no problem) that the lenses are correct.
Why is it that high iso's are problem for backs?
I know it's a different discussion, but de DSLR seem to have it better under control whith the new releases.
The same topic, I shoot a lot of night scenes, how do you handle that with a sinar?
Shoot extr afiles for blacks etc?
maarten
It will probably take some getting used to checking the sharpness on the screen.
As some people said here on the forum I will get a laser distance meter, to at least not have to guess what distance it is, and hope ( but with Alpa Quality it should be no problem) that the lenses are correct.
Why is it that high iso's are problem for backs?
I know it's a different discussion, but de DSLR seem to have it better under control whith the new releases.
The same topic, I shoot a lot of night scenes, how do you handle that with a sinar?
Shoot extr afiles for blacks etc?
maarten
QUOTE (meurten @ Nov 5 2007, 11:34 PM)
The same topic, I shoot a lot of night scenes, how do you handle that with a sinar?
Shoot extr afiles for blacks etc?
Shoot extr afiles for blacks etc?
Black reference files are handled automatically by the Sinarbacks.
I will use it mainly for interior-architecture, landscape & portrait (this with my trusted old hassy)
I regard both backs as high quality & still want to test the Sinar. So it would also be nice to know what points to focus on when testing? What to look for.
Thanks
Maarten.
[/quote]
I was recently using the Sinar e75 along with an Leaf A22.....shooting it on an architectural job
to look at the files side by side. The Brumbaer workflow is much more efficient than the LC11 with regard to applying the white reference /gain files........It has been discussed here before by RainerV
Does not matter which back you shoot; wide angle shooting workflow= shoot a whitreference/gain file/LCC file. Using the backs' proprietary software apply this reference file to the image data to correct optical physics anomalies caused by combination of the ccd/lens/light sources.
Brumbaer workflow:You simply identify the white reference files and the software/computer automatically applies the reference files to the image data files removing all optical anamolies.
Very quick and easy workflow that does not involve much of my time. Then you simply drop the files into the Brumbaer DNG converter
LC11 workflow: you pair the gain file with all the image file manually for each camera position.....you have be in front of the computer during this entire process: for 3-5 views no big deal, 10-20 views is a much longer time commitment..............I prefer not to be involved with the computer during this robotic task.
When shooting tethered, does anyone know if the upcoming Sinar eXposure software will allow you to review files with the white reference files applied to the image data files?
The selection of the back as well the choice of software/workflow can be pretty specific to the subject you shoot. If you are primarily an architectural shooter, I would want to test these backs together so you can spot the differences quickly. I would suggest shooting an interior with mixed light sources and comparing deep shadow details (0-20 in the info pallete) as well as the highlight details (230-255), stick with a raw developer of your choice......you are simply trying to establish
the difference between the sensors before having to resort to software and photoshop jockery techniques. Don't loose sight of the quality of the captured file as well as the workflow to produce it into a photograph. I agree with the comments about the sh*t LCD's, but remember they are simply histograms with poor image representations, its the captured file that matters more. If you
are a fashion or a studio shooter your selection criteria would be completely different, the quality LCD may matter more than the native file capture............since you can more easily control the lighting to address shadow and highlight information.
I regard both backs as high quality & still want to test the Sinar. So it would also be nice to know what points to focus on when testing? What to look for.
Thanks
Maarten.
[/quote]
I was recently using the Sinar e75 along with an Leaf A22.....shooting it on an architectural job
to look at the files side by side. The Brumbaer workflow is much more efficient than the LC11 with regard to applying the white reference /gain files........It has been discussed here before by RainerV
Does not matter which back you shoot; wide angle shooting workflow= shoot a whitreference/gain file/LCC file. Using the backs' proprietary software apply this reference file to the image data to correct optical physics anomalies caused by combination of the ccd/lens/light sources.
Brumbaer workflow:You simply identify the white reference files and the software/computer automatically applies the reference files to the image data files removing all optical anamolies.
Very quick and easy workflow that does not involve much of my time. Then you simply drop the files into the Brumbaer DNG converter
LC11 workflow: you pair the gain file with all the image file manually for each camera position.....you have be in front of the computer during this entire process: for 3-5 views no big deal, 10-20 views is a much longer time commitment..............I prefer not to be involved with the computer during this robotic task.
When shooting tethered, does anyone know if the upcoming Sinar eXposure software will allow you to review files with the white reference files applied to the image data files?
The selection of the back as well the choice of software/workflow can be pretty specific to the subject you shoot. If you are primarily an architectural shooter, I would want to test these backs together so you can spot the differences quickly. I would suggest shooting an interior with mixed light sources and comparing deep shadow details (0-20 in the info pallete) as well as the highlight details (230-255), stick with a raw developer of your choice......you are simply trying to establish
the difference between the sensors before having to resort to software and photoshop jockery techniques. Don't loose sight of the quality of the captured file as well as the workflow to produce it into a photograph. I agree with the comments about the sh*t LCD's, but remember they are simply histograms with poor image representations, its the captured file that matters more. If you
are a fashion or a studio shooter your selection criteria would be completely different, the quality LCD may matter more than the native file capture............since you can more easily control the lighting to address shadow and highlight information.
QUOTE (meurten @ Nov 5 2007, 11:34 PM)
Why is it that high iso's are problem for backs?
I know it's a different discussion, but de DSLR seem to have it better under control whith the new releases.
I know it's a different discussion, but de DSLR seem to have it better under control whith the new releases.
These backs are handling high ISOs better with new releases - they used to be 25ISO on this generation of chip now they are 100/200
I did some 2second exposures the other day - cathedal at dusk - the very clean files with the 54LV
But for longer exposures than that and movements and Black/white references - I dont really know - I shoot lifestyle - so I will have to refer you to other posters
S
Maarten,
In my experience with the Aptus 22, and I believe in Rainer's experience with the eMotion 22, there is very little in the way of color casts with that 22MP Dalsa sensor. If you can test the backs you're interested in with the Alpa lenses and shoot the white plexi for reference you may find that you don't need to use the Brumbaer or the Custom Gain software for the purpose of removing these defects. I believe with the aptus22 that the IR filter is strong enough to cause a red shift in a image if you are doing large shifts with the 35 or 47. This color shift would correspond to the falloff of the lens and would go from cyan to red.
The 33MP dalsa sensors are where you run into issues with color uniformity and with centerfold (These colors shift green and magenta). You would be spoiled by the Leaf Aptus 22's ability to come straight out of the camera and go directly into ACR, Lightroom, etc.. without correction in the Gain adjuster, using Brumbaer's software, or using Phase One's LCC correction. I think with the Sinar back you would use Brumbaer's converter just to make DNG's, not to correct color casts on the 22MP chip.
Why is Phase one not a consideration? Just curious. I have a P45+ because I felt the most comfortable with their software in different working environments (shooting tethered, to card, with clients surrounding the monitor, processing files on the spot with all the corrections in place, being able to apply the LCC corrections to incoming tethered captures automatically). I don't like having to wake up the Phase back before every shot. I don't like their customer service. The software won me over though.
You can do some night photography with the Dalsa sensor, but at 25 or 50 asa and a 32 second exposure limit you have some potentially serious limitations. I think for many commercial shooters it is not much of a problem because the subjects are usually lit up (like building exteriors or city scapes), but some of your work looks like longer exposures than that.
It will be important in your testing to see first hand the application of the color cast corrections. You should experience this both when tethered and when downloading from card. Think about having to do this tethered in a studio with a client next to you and having to process the files right there for a last minute job. Also think about coming home with 300 captures and 30 white reference files to apply to 30 different setups. You will need to communicate with the dealers or reps before your meetings about your needs. I met with two dealers and 3 reps when deciding on backs, not one of them could show the Brumbaer, LCC, or Custom Gain workflow.
The quality of images from these backs are all great. Dealing with the software workflow in the work you need to do today and for the work you may be doing in the future will have a big impact on your day to day happiness with the product.
Don't buy anything if some crucial feature you need to make it work for you is promised for a future software or firmware release. It has to all work the day you pick it up.
I did not buy the eMotion 75 11 months ago because the color casts could not be corrected in tethered shooting. The files that had color casts removed by Brumbaer's software were now DNG files and could no longer be opened or processed by the Sinar capture software ( so you were off to Adobe Camera Raw). I think this is different with Sinar today, but it is just an example of the complications in figuring out how all this stuff works (or doesn't work) for you.
In my experience with the Aptus 22, and I believe in Rainer's experience with the eMotion 22, there is very little in the way of color casts with that 22MP Dalsa sensor. If you can test the backs you're interested in with the Alpa lenses and shoot the white plexi for reference you may find that you don't need to use the Brumbaer or the Custom Gain software for the purpose of removing these defects. I believe with the aptus22 that the IR filter is strong enough to cause a red shift in a image if you are doing large shifts with the 35 or 47. This color shift would correspond to the falloff of the lens and would go from cyan to red.
The 33MP dalsa sensors are where you run into issues with color uniformity and with centerfold (These colors shift green and magenta). You would be spoiled by the Leaf Aptus 22's ability to come straight out of the camera and go directly into ACR, Lightroom, etc.. without correction in the Gain adjuster, using Brumbaer's software, or using Phase One's LCC correction. I think with the Sinar back you would use Brumbaer's converter just to make DNG's, not to correct color casts on the 22MP chip.
Why is Phase one not a consideration? Just curious. I have a P45+ because I felt the most comfortable with their software in different working environments (shooting tethered, to card, with clients surrounding the monitor, processing files on the spot with all the corrections in place, being able to apply the LCC corrections to incoming tethered captures automatically). I don't like having to wake up the Phase back before every shot. I don't like their customer service. The software won me over though.
You can do some night photography with the Dalsa sensor, but at 25 or 50 asa and a 32 second exposure limit you have some potentially serious limitations. I think for many commercial shooters it is not much of a problem because the subjects are usually lit up (like building exteriors or city scapes), but some of your work looks like longer exposures than that.
It will be important in your testing to see first hand the application of the color cast corrections. You should experience this both when tethered and when downloading from card. Think about having to do this tethered in a studio with a client next to you and having to process the files right there for a last minute job. Also think about coming home with 300 captures and 30 white reference files to apply to 30 different setups. You will need to communicate with the dealers or reps before your meetings about your needs. I met with two dealers and 3 reps when deciding on backs, not one of them could show the Brumbaer, LCC, or Custom Gain workflow.
The quality of images from these backs are all great. Dealing with the software workflow in the work you need to do today and for the work you may be doing in the future will have a big impact on your day to day happiness with the product.
Don't buy anything if some crucial feature you need to make it work for you is promised for a future software or firmware release. It has to all work the day you pick it up.
I did not buy the eMotion 75 11 months ago because the color casts could not be corrected in tethered shooting. The files that had color casts removed by Brumbaer's software were now DNG files and could no longer be opened or processed by the Sinar capture software ( so you were off to Adobe Camera Raw). I think this is different with Sinar today, but it is just an example of the complications in figuring out how all this stuff works (or doesn't work) for you.
Maarten
As another user of the Sinar eMotion 54LV i would like to post a comment. I also do architecture and interiors. I have only testes a phase one back with a dealer, so I think Eric has a better knowledge about this back. One thing I find very tempting is the long exposure capabilities of the phase one product because with the sinar-backs (54LV) there is still a limit at 30 seconds - and these images can be very noisy.
What I really like is the workflow of the sinar backs. I use the brumbaer tools too. Working to cf-card is very fast and works well - I still haven't found a solution for fast tethered working. May be the new software...
With the Brumbaer dng converter you can batch process all the files including white reference-files to get perfectly corrected dngs to work with. During capture i switch my back to compressed mode for the white reference shots widt an expodisc, so I can identify all the white references by file size and put them in one folder and the image files in another folder. All I have to do is to run the white reference folder through emotionDNG (to create white correction files), then select the white reference and the image folder and put them trough brumbaers emotion dng to make the final corrections.
So the work is done in a few seconds and the you have great dngs to work width. I think for someone who works mobile, the sinar workflow is great (I still can not understand that a freeware programmer is needed to make a 20000$ piece of equipment a really great solution...)
Regards
Dominique
As another user of the Sinar eMotion 54LV i would like to post a comment. I also do architecture and interiors. I have only testes a phase one back with a dealer, so I think Eric has a better knowledge about this back. One thing I find very tempting is the long exposure capabilities of the phase one product because with the sinar-backs (54LV) there is still a limit at 30 seconds - and these images can be very noisy.
What I really like is the workflow of the sinar backs. I use the brumbaer tools too. Working to cf-card is very fast and works well - I still haven't found a solution for fast tethered working. May be the new software...
With the Brumbaer dng converter you can batch process all the files including white reference-files to get perfectly corrected dngs to work with. During capture i switch my back to compressed mode for the white reference shots widt an expodisc, so I can identify all the white references by file size and put them in one folder and the image files in another folder. All I have to do is to run the white reference folder through emotionDNG (to create white correction files), then select the white reference and the image folder and put them trough brumbaers emotion dng to make the final corrections.
So the work is done in a few seconds and the you have great dngs to work width. I think for someone who works mobile, the sinar workflow is great (I still can not understand that a freeware programmer is needed to make a 20000$ piece of equipment a really great solution...)
Regards
Dominique
hi Dominique,
There exists a little Brumbaer tool called "eMotion Teth", which allows tethered shooting and saving the RAWs into a folder before processing it. It is not officially released by Stefan Hess but it works, with a preview window, nevertheless you can try it if you want to: send me your email contact and I shall forward it to you if interested.
Best regards,
Thierry
There exists a little Brumbaer tool called "eMotion Teth", which allows tethered shooting and saving the RAWs into a folder before processing it. It is not officially released by Stefan Hess but it works, with a preview window, nevertheless you can try it if you want to: send me your email contact and I shall forward it to you if interested.
Best regards,
Thierry
QUOTE (DominiqueMarcWehrli @ Nov 6 2007, 04:58 PM)
I still haven't found a solution for fast tethered working. Dominique
Thierry
I am aware of this software, but i am not very happy widt the speed and quality of the previews.
If I need a preview on the computer I now use the emotion reader connected to the back, because the images show up immediately and I can drag and drop them on the emotionDNG converter. Together width a folder script the converted files show automatically up in iridient raw converter after the conversion. The big plus is the preview quality and the ability to only download and process selected files and still have the files on the cf-card. Unfortunately downloading, converting to dng and opening takes some time (i am am still an iBook g4 user).
I really liked the eyelike software for its speed and quality, but every time I disconnected the back it took a very long time to reconnect.
Thierry, do you know if there is a beta version of the eXposure software available?
Regards
Dominique
I am aware of this software, but i am not very happy widt the speed and quality of the previews.
If I need a preview on the computer I now use the emotion reader connected to the back, because the images show up immediately and I can drag and drop them on the emotionDNG converter. Together width a folder script the converted files show automatically up in iridient raw converter after the conversion. The big plus is the preview quality and the ability to only download and process selected files and still have the files on the cf-card. Unfortunately downloading, converting to dng and opening takes some time (i am am still an iBook g4 user).
I really liked the eyelike software for its speed and quality, but every time I disconnected the back it took a very long time to reconnect.
Thierry, do you know if there is a beta version of the eXposure software available?
Regards
Dominique
Dominique,
I agree, that's why it has not been released. It has been written for a shooting with a Sinarback Multishot, writing a BR file with each image and thus being a bit slow. Just wanted to mention it.
Best regards,
Thierry
I agree, that's why it has not been released. It has been written for a shooting with a Sinarback Multishot, writing a BR file with each image and thus being a bit slow. Just wanted to mention it.
Best regards,
Thierry
QUOTE (DominiqueMarcWehrli @ Nov 6 2007, 05:57 PM)
Thierry
I am aware of this software, but i am not very happy widt the speed and quality of the previews.
If I need a preview on the computer I now use the emotion reader connected to the back, because the images show up immediately and I can drag and drop them on the emotionDNG converter. Together width a folder script the converted files show automatically up in iridient raw converter after the conversion. The big plus is the preview quality and the ability to only download and process selected files and still have the files on the cf-card. Unfortunately downloading, converting to dng and opening takes some time (i am am still an iBook g4 user).
I really liked the eyelike software for its speed and quality, but every time I disconnected the back it took a very long time to reconnect.
Thierry, do you know if there is a beta version of the eXposure software available?
Regards
Dominique
I am aware of this software, but i am not very happy widt the speed and quality of the previews.
If I need a preview on the computer I now use the emotion reader connected to the back, because the images show up immediately and I can drag and drop them on the emotionDNG converter. Together width a folder script the converted files show automatically up in iridient raw converter after the conversion. The big plus is the preview quality and the ability to only download and process selected files and still have the files on the cf-card. Unfortunately downloading, converting to dng and opening takes some time (i am am still an iBook g4 user).
I really liked the eyelike software for its speed and quality, but every time I disconnected the back it took a very long time to reconnect.
Thierry, do you know if there is a beta version of the eXposure software available?
Regards
Dominique
Maarten:
You should really consider very seriously a Phase One P25+ or 45+. Phase wins hands down on long exposures and if you're shooting interiors or night or dusk you'll want exposures longer than 30 seconds.
Workflow is certainly a consideration. While Phase is very slow in getting their new v4 out, it will worth waiting for I'm sure.
Just my 2 cents.
Cambo Wide DS
24xl
35xl
47xl
58xl
72xl
90
Phase P45+ (upgraded from a P25)
Thinking of switching to Alpa.
You should really consider very seriously a Phase One P25+ or 45+. Phase wins hands down on long exposures and if you're shooting interiors or night or dusk you'll want exposures longer than 30 seconds.
Workflow is certainly a consideration. While Phase is very slow in getting their new v4 out, it will worth waiting for I'm sure.
Just my 2 cents.
Cambo Wide DS
24xl
35xl
47xl
58xl
72xl
90
Phase P45+ (upgraded from a P25)
Thinking of switching to Alpa.
Being an eMotion-75LV user,I do have to agree that it would be handy to be able to have a longer exposure time than 32 seconds.
However in my 35 year career as an interior and exterior shooter,I have never done a exposure
longer than 32 seconds.( With medium format)
I did do longer exposures on 4x5 with a heavy filter pack and an F stop of 22.
Nowadays with digital an F stop of 11 is maximum and I rarely use filters anymore.
My other reason to go with Sinar was the Hy6.
With Phase this option didn't exist.
Still you should test yourself.
However in my 35 year career as an interior and exterior shooter,I have never done a exposure
longer than 32 seconds.( With medium format)
I did do longer exposures on 4x5 with a heavy filter pack and an F stop of 22.
Nowadays with digital an F stop of 11 is maximum and I rarely use filters anymore.
My other reason to go with Sinar was the Hy6.
With Phase this option didn't exist.
Still you should test yourself.
I own the Sinar 75LV and was also hesitant to purchase a kit that was limited to a max exposure of 32sec as my work is also interiors and architecture.
The reality is that at f/11 I have had little problem and the extended dynamic range means I can pull way more out of the shadows than I used to on film and dslr.
The tipping point between systems for me was Brumbaer and its highlight recovery. There is now detail into high whites - high contrats spots for example, that is controllable and useable, while being able to expose 'normally' for the rest of the scene.
The dynamic range is HUGE...and that helps my shooting in a very positive way.
Murray
The reality is that at f/11 I have had little problem and the extended dynamic range means I can pull way more out of the shadows than I used to on film and dslr.
The tipping point between systems for me was Brumbaer and its highlight recovery. There is now detail into high whites - high contrats spots for example, that is controllable and useable, while being able to expose 'normally' for the rest of the scene.
The dynamic range is HUGE...and that helps my shooting in a very positive way.
Murray
Hi everyone, great and helpfull reply's !
32 seconds of exposure isn't much that is true, and sometimes it is to little.
Might there be a way around that, like double exposures?
The phase for the moment isn't an option because of the price, the P25 is a lot more expensive than either Sinar or Leaf. And I do want that sensor size, the sensors of the other Phase ones are to small. The software however is definitly really nice ( although I hated all the little confusing folders), especially the new version looks good.
I still want to look at a refurbished P25 & what such a back would cost.
Erick I am not sure what you mean with this sentence? Do you mean to say that it is a temptation to do everything in Lightroom, and therefore forget the good stuff that LC11 has to offer to make the RAW converting better?
I'm not used to thethered shooting ( did it with nikon a few times) but I agree that it's something to consider.
And it is something that has to be tested to really understand what it does, how much time it takes, how many steps have to be taken and how un-mobile I will be on location.
I also like the fact that the leaf distributor is really near my studio. Sinar on the other hand is on the other side of the country.
And everybody is very positive about Brumbear! Sounds interesting and good, but as dominic says
It makes me wonder what they have in store for the future, do they wait for the Hy6 global introdiction to make a leap in software or why haven't they incorporated it yet in their own software?
When you've run Brumbears software and the files are DNG, can you process them further in different converters, say Lightroom and C1, or is the Sinar Software still the best choice after that?
Does anybody know if the hightlight recovery for Leaf is just as good?
It's a tough process...thanks fot the tips
Maarten
32 seconds of exposure isn't much that is true, and sometimes it is to little.
Might there be a way around that, like double exposures?
The phase for the moment isn't an option because of the price, the P25 is a lot more expensive than either Sinar or Leaf. And I do want that sensor size, the sensors of the other Phase ones are to small. The software however is definitly really nice ( although I hated all the little confusing folders), especially the new version looks good.
I still want to look at a refurbished P25 & what such a back would cost.
QUOTE
You would be spoiled by the Leaf Aptus 22's ability to come straight out of the camera and go directly into ACR, Lightroom, etc.. without correction in the Gain adjuster, using Brumbaer's software, or using Phase One's LCC correction.
Erick I am not sure what you mean with this sentence? Do you mean to say that it is a temptation to do everything in Lightroom, and therefore forget the good stuff that LC11 has to offer to make the RAW converting better?
I'm not used to thethered shooting ( did it with nikon a few times) but I agree that it's something to consider.
And it is something that has to be tested to really understand what it does, how much time it takes, how many steps have to be taken and how un-mobile I will be on location.
I also like the fact that the leaf distributor is really near my studio. Sinar on the other hand is on the other side of the country.
And everybody is very positive about Brumbear! Sounds interesting and good, but as dominic says
QUOTE
(I still can not understand that a freeware programmer is needed to make a 20000$ piece of equipment a really great solution...)
It makes me wonder what they have in store for the future, do they wait for the Hy6 global introdiction to make a leap in software or why haven't they incorporated it yet in their own software?
When you've run Brumbears software and the files are DNG, can you process them further in different converters, say Lightroom and C1, or is the Sinar Software still the best choice after that?
Does anybody know if the hightlight recovery for Leaf is just as good?
It's a tough process...thanks fot the tips
Maarten
Dear Maarten,
I am not here to answer for making your decide on one specific product, but because I know the Brumbaer tools for the excellent DNG's produced by it and you should anyway test it by yourself. What I can tell you:
- YES, the DNGs produced can be opened/processed in any DNG compatible application like LR, ACR, Raw Developer, etc ... There is no need anymore and at this DNG stage to go back to the Sinar CS capture application.
- For having done very specific tests with the Brumbaer DNG Converter last week I can tell you that the dynamic range is really HUGE (like stated by Murray): according to my tests the full dynamic range of the sensor is used (11 f-stops), or if not then really very close to these 11 stops. For my knowledge and experience (I have tested it as well), all other capture softwares from any brand of backs DO "clip" the highlights, thus it is impossible THEREAFTER to recover something in the highlights, when it is not there and clipped already. That's the real important point for a recovery to be effective. Brumbaer does NOT clip any information in the highlights.
Best regards,
Thierry
I am not here to answer for making your decide on one specific product, but because I know the Brumbaer tools for the excellent DNG's produced by it and you should anyway test it by yourself. What I can tell you:
- YES, the DNGs produced can be opened/processed in any DNG compatible application like LR, ACR, Raw Developer, etc ... There is no need anymore and at this DNG stage to go back to the Sinar CS capture application.
- For having done very specific tests with the Brumbaer DNG Converter last week I can tell you that the dynamic range is really HUGE (like stated by Murray): according to my tests the full dynamic range of the sensor is used (11 f-stops), or if not then really very close to these 11 stops. For my knowledge and experience (I have tested it as well), all other capture softwares from any brand of backs DO "clip" the highlights, thus it is impossible THEREAFTER to recover something in the highlights, when it is not there and clipped already. That's the real important point for a recovery to be effective. Brumbaer does NOT clip any information in the highlights.
Best regards,
Thierry
QUOTE (meurten @ Nov 7 2007, 05:07 PM)
When you've run Brumbears software and the files are DNG, can you process them further in different converters, say Lightroom and C1, or is the Sinar Software still the best choice after that?
Does anybody know if the hightlight recovery for Leaf is just as good?
Maarten
Does anybody know if the hightlight recovery for Leaf is just as good?
Maarten
Brumbaer makes a conversion from the raw file to DNG.
DNG then goes (in my workflow) to Lightroom...
M
DNG then goes (in my workflow) to Lightroom...
M
my opinion is, that the different backs have different "sweet" spots, together with their software. i think the emotion backs together with brumbaer are maybe the best solution for architecture work at the moment. this comes as a result as how brumbaer tools was designed because it was designed specially for the needs of architecture "on location" work. the workflow was created very specific, because it was made in very closed co-operation together with an architecture photographer who is often posting here in LL ( me ...... ) and for the needs of this kind of work. it was made in "realtime" phoning and tweacking the programm nearly every day, meanwhile shooting on location over a period of 6 months. . i think this way of creating a software workflos might be 100% unique,- but it worked and when the shooting was finished the software also raeched its finally level, although still some tweacking was made, mainly to improve image quality further and to introduce the one or the other detail. .... as one of the side aspects it changed completely my point of view how software can be written. i mean stefan was so fast!!!!! i reported some bug or asked for some changes and 1, 2 or 3 days later he had sent me. in this way 40 or 50 versions of brumbaer version were writte nin six months. funny to see the "big" fishes taken months or years for little changes, if we ask them to do them. or the companies prefer to ignore this wishes totally. nice way to create an own piece of sw, and even nicer if the quality is finally class leading,- which is the case i.m.o. with the brumbaer tools.
goal was to reach flawless image quality but also a logic workflow which could work as automatic as possible.
since it is nessesary to shoot white files with all actual backs, it is an big factor how easy these white files can be processed. i personnaly do not have much fun at night in the hotel to process 20, 30,40,50,60 files and to adjust each motif manually one after the other,- which means finally i am busy 2 or 3 hours more just to have "clean" and colorshift-free dng files on my harddrive. brumbaer allows now to automatize this prozess as far as possible and the whole dng- conversion stuff is done meanwhile i am drinking coffee. this can save many many hours on location.
btw. is the dng file quality state of the art and in some aspects innovative in MF ( highlight recovery, layering vignetting, on location color calibration ).
about 30 seconds limit of the dalsa sensor: i dont think its a problem, at least not for purposes which are not "full-moon-shots" ( for which i would use a canon in any case, allthough i listened that the PO backs handle ten minutes exposures very good too ).
but i think too that this is the onliest advantage kodak sensors might have over the dalsas,- regarding architecture photography where lo iso never is a problem.
i use mainly rodenstock HR lenses. this lenses can be used at full aperture without visible image sharpness degradation and without center filter. this are many stops which you gain in that way,- compared to 4x5" with centerfilter at f11. also with schneider lenses its not a problem to work with f8 or f11 without centerfilter.
two images about darkness and about dynamic range ( this was REALLY dark ) :
Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment
goal was to reach flawless image quality but also a logic workflow which could work as automatic as possible.
since it is nessesary to shoot white files with all actual backs, it is an big factor how easy these white files can be processed. i personnaly do not have much fun at night in the hotel to process 20, 30,40,50,60 files and to adjust each motif manually one after the other,- which means finally i am busy 2 or 3 hours more just to have "clean" and colorshift-free dng files on my harddrive. brumbaer allows now to automatize this prozess as far as possible and the whole dng- conversion stuff is done meanwhile i am drinking coffee. this can save many many hours on location.
btw. is the dng file quality state of the art and in some aspects innovative in MF ( highlight recovery, layering vignetting, on location color calibration ).
about 30 seconds limit of the dalsa sensor: i dont think its a problem, at least not for purposes which are not "full-moon-shots" ( for which i would use a canon in any case, allthough i listened that the PO backs handle ten minutes exposures very good too ).
but i think too that this is the onliest advantage kodak sensors might have over the dalsas,- regarding architecture photography where lo iso never is a problem.
i use mainly rodenstock HR lenses. this lenses can be used at full aperture without visible image sharpness degradation and without center filter. this are many stops which you gain in that way,- compared to 4x5" with centerfilter at f11. also with schneider lenses its not a problem to work with f8 or f11 without centerfilter.
two images about darkness and about dynamic range ( this was REALLY dark ) :
Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment
Why would you want to change to the alpa over the Cambo? Would it be worth the expense?
QUOTE (Jeffreytotaro @ Nov 6 2007, 07:16 PM)
Maarten:
You should really consider very seriously a Phase One P25+ or 45+. Phase wins hands down on long exposures and if you're shooting interiors or night or dusk you'll want exposures longer than 30 seconds.
Workflow is certainly a consideration. While Phase is very slow in getting their new v4 out, it will worth waiting for I'm sure.
Just my 2 cents.
Cambo Wide DS
24xl
35xl
47xl
58xl
72xl
90
Phase P45+ (upgraded from a P25)
Thinking of switching to Alpa.
You should really consider very seriously a Phase One P25+ or 45+. Phase wins hands down on long exposures and if you're shooting interiors or night or dusk you'll want exposures longer than 30 seconds.
Workflow is certainly a consideration. While Phase is very slow in getting their new v4 out, it will worth waiting for I'm sure.
Just my 2 cents.
Cambo Wide DS
24xl
35xl
47xl
58xl
72xl
90
Phase P45+ (upgraded from a P25)
Thinking of switching to Alpa.
One small advantage to shooting tethered with the Leaf back is having a finished image. With leaf you can upload the gain file to correct color shift and lens falloff to the camera back. The work flow needs to be fixed by Leaf, but when you have a client on set or you are using lighting you can see the final images as you shoot.
It's not getting easier.....
I Spoke to a Phase One salesman today and I am going to test one next week on a job.
A P25 refurbished is affordable and very interesting.
He told me on the subject of whiteref. (LCC) files that it's not nessesary to shoot it everytime just as long as you have one with the same camera adjustments and F-stop.
Basically he said you can have an archive of all the settings and that's enough..?
I'd love to be able to test a Sinar side by side, and will phone the distributor to see if it's possible I am getting curious about the emotion and the Brumbear software!
Although I am a little anxious about buying a back and noy really knowing how the new software will turn out? the new C4 ( beta looks good workflowwise) and the new exposure ( is there an beta somewhere on the net?
Something Ericstaud said some good words about.
It has to work now, not in the future..
Rainer.. those shots look really good!
They have a lovelycrispy tone in the blacks and grays.
I'm still thinking about the max exposure.
For assignments it will be enough, the problem is some of my free work.
It used to need longer times than 30 sec. but I will try nightshots next week.
My preferred lens on the Alpa to be would be a 35mm, I am not a big fan of even wider lenses and only use them when a cunstomer especially wants it, which happenend only once.
I Spoke to a Phase One salesman today and I am going to test one next week on a job.
A P25 refurbished is affordable and very interesting.
He told me on the subject of whiteref. (LCC) files that it's not nessesary to shoot it everytime just as long as you have one with the same camera adjustments and F-stop.
Basically he said you can have an archive of all the settings and that's enough..?
I'd love to be able to test a Sinar side by side, and will phone the distributor to see if it's possible I am getting curious about the emotion and the Brumbear software!
Although I am a little anxious about buying a back and noy really knowing how the new software will turn out? the new C4 ( beta looks good workflowwise) and the new exposure ( is there an beta somewhere on the net?
Something Ericstaud said some good words about.
It has to work now, not in the future..
Rainer.. those shots look really good!
They have a lovelycrispy tone in the blacks and grays.
I'm still thinking about the max exposure.
For assignments it will be enough, the problem is some of my free work.
It used to need longer times than 30 sec. but I will try nightshots next week.
My preferred lens on the Alpa to be would be a 35mm, I am not a big fan of even wider lenses and only use them when a cunstomer especially wants it, which happenend only once.
QUOTE (meurten @ Nov 7 2007, 03:07 AM)
Hi everyone, great and helpfull reply's !
Erick I am not sure what you mean with this sentence? Do you mean to say that it is a temptation to do everything in Lightroom, and therefore forget the good stuff that LC11 has to offer to make the RAW converting better?
Erick I am not sure what you mean with this sentence? Do you mean to say that it is a temptation to do everything in Lightroom, and therefore forget the good stuff that LC11 has to offer to make the RAW converting better?
When I worked with the Aptus22 there were virtually no color casts. A file shot tethered or to CF card could be opened and converted in LC8, LC11, ACR, Lightroom, Aperture, Raw Developer, and so on.... with no preliminary conversion or correction. The back can be used tethered with the current software as well very easily.
The Phase LCC solution only applies corrections to the output files, the RAWs are never touched. Phase one RAW files shot on an Alpa or similar cannot be processed in any software other than Caputure One Pro. The new Capture One Pro 4 will possibly have the ability to output DNG files with the LCC applied and make it possible to use other software, but that is still on theory. I expect to see C1 Pro v4 by 2015 (Although Phase says it will be out next spring).
Many months ago the DNG files that were output by the Brumbaer converter could not be processed in the Sinar capture software. So, an investment in the Sinar back for architecture shooting may mean that you don't use the Sinar software, but instead choose between other RAW converters. I think this is changing soon, but I don't know if that in 2 weeks soon, or in 18 months soon. Most of the commercial architecture photographers I know work tethered to a laptop. Although I can work by myself just viewing the back of the camera, I prefer to show the architect, art director, magazine editor, or prop stylist the images on a computer screen.
Here is 20 minutes in the middle of the night with the P45. Not that useful for most commercial work, but for the personal stuff on your site I think it is invaluable...
Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment
QUOTE (ericstaud @ Nov 7 2007, 06:33 PM)
When I worked with the Aptus22 there were virtually no color casts. A file shot tethered or to CF card could be opened and converted in LC8, LC11, ACR, Lightroom, Aperture, Raw Developer, and so on.... with no preliminary conversion or correction. The back can be used tethered with the current software as well very easily.
The Phase LCC solution only applies corrections to the output files, the RAWs are never touched. Phase one RAW files shot on an Alpa or similar cannot be processed in any software other than Caputure One Pro. The new Capture One Pro 4 will possibly have the ability to output DNG files with the LCC applied and make it possible to use other software, but that is still on theory. I expect to see C1 Pro v4 by 2015 (Although Phase says it will be out next spring).
Many months ago the DNG files that were output by the Brumbaer converter could not be processed in the Sinar capture software. So, an investment in the Sinar back for architecture shooting may mean that you don't use the Sinar software, but instead choose between other RAW converters. I think this is changing soon, but I don't know if that in 2 weeks soon, or in 18 months soon. Most of the commercial architecture photographers I know work tethered to a laptop. Although I can work by myself just viewing the back of the camera, I prefer to show the architect, art director, magazine editor, or prop stylist the images on a computer screen.
The Phase LCC solution only applies corrections to the output files, the RAWs are never touched. Phase one RAW files shot on an Alpa or similar cannot be processed in any software other than Caputure One Pro. The new Capture One Pro 4 will possibly have the ability to output DNG files with the LCC applied and make it possible to use other software, but that is still on theory. I expect to see C1 Pro v4 by 2015 (Although Phase says it will be out next spring).
Many months ago the DNG files that were output by the Brumbaer converter could not be processed in the Sinar capture software. So, an investment in the Sinar back for architecture shooting may mean that you don't use the Sinar software, but instead choose between other RAW converters. I think this is changing soon, but I don't know if that in 2 weeks soon, or in 18 months soon. Most of the commercial architecture photographers I know work tethered to a laptop. Although I can work by myself just viewing the back of the camera, I prefer to show the architect, art director, magazine editor, or prop stylist the images on a computer screen.
stunning your long time exposure, but it looks to me as if there would be color shift from left to rigth. something looks strange about the colors, maybe its just me.
for noise i would appreciate to see a 100% crop of it, its possible? but its clear hat the phase backs do a great job with long time exposures.
i did also some fullmoon shots and they have an amazing atmosphere,- but i used the canon for it. do you have to wait 20 minutes after the exposure for the black reference shot if you use the PO?
about the dalsa 22: in the time i was working only with the eMotion22 i didnt used white references,- although now i see that this back looks even better as it did before, if i apply the white reference to the dalsa22 also.
yes,- i forgot to work with capture and i dont see a reason why i should do it. lightroom, photoshop or iridient have so amazing raw converters that i dont care at all if i can open my dng files in capture software.
funny ... all architecture photographers i know mostly work untethered,- at least for exteriors. some work tethered for interiors, as i do sometimes too,- but really sometimes. you do the same, eric as you describe it, isnt it?
and yes... thats theory that the white references can work if you one time have shot them, stored them in a "white file bank" and than you apply them to your shots which you do later. in fact you have to write down in this case every millimeter of movements and which aperture you used .... its much more work than to shoot a new lcc shot and apply it. and soon you will see also that this method sometimes works and sometimes not good enough.
although with the aptus22 or the emotion22 there is no urgent need to shoot white files, with the P25 it is. as far i know this back shows extreme color shifts with movements.
Click to view attachment
QUOTE (meurten @ Nov 7 2007, 06:13 PM)
It's not getting easier.....
I Spoke to a Phase One salesman today and I am going to test one next week on a job.
A P25 refurbished is affordable and very interesting.
He told me on the subject of whiteref. (LCC) files that it's not nessesary to shoot it everytime just as long as you have one with the same camera adjustments and F-stop.
Basically he said you can have an archive of all the settings and that's enough..?
I'd love to be able to test a Sinar side by side, and will phone the distributor to see if it's possible I am getting curious about the emotion and the Brumbear software!
Although I am a little anxious about buying a back and noy really knowing how the new software will turn out? the new C4 ( beta looks good workflowwise) and the new exposure ( is there an beta somewhere on the net?
Something Ericstaud said some good words about.
It has to work now, not in the future..
Rainer.. those shots look really good!
They have a lovelycrispy tone in the blacks and grays.
I'm still thinking about the max exposure.
For assignments it will be enough, the problem is some of my free work.
It used to need longer times than 30 sec. but I will try nightshots next week.
My preferred lens on the Alpa to be would be a 35mm, I am not a big fan of even wider lenses and only use them when a cunstomer especially wants it, which happenend only once.
I Spoke to a Phase One salesman today and I am going to test one next week on a job.
A P25 refurbished is affordable and very interesting.
He told me on the subject of whiteref. (LCC) files that it's not nessesary to shoot it everytime just as long as you have one with the same camera adjustments and F-stop.
Basically he said you can have an archive of all the settings and that's enough..?
I'd love to be able to test a Sinar side by side, and will phone the distributor to see if it's possible I am getting curious about the emotion and the Brumbear software!
Although I am a little anxious about buying a back and noy really knowing how the new software will turn out? the new C4 ( beta looks good workflowwise) and the new exposure ( is there an beta somewhere on the net?
Something Ericstaud said some good words about.
It has to work now, not in the future..
Rainer.. those shots look really good!
They have a lovelycrispy tone in the blacks and grays.
I'm still thinking about the max exposure.
For assignments it will be enough, the problem is some of my free work.
It used to need longer times than 30 sec. but I will try nightshots next week.
My preferred lens on the Alpa to be would be a 35mm, I am not a big fan of even wider lenses and only use them when a cunstomer especially wants it, which happenend only once.
if you dont have already the lens i would recommend the rodenstock 35HR. its not so expensive than the 28HR but exactly the same quality. no problem to use it at f4 without center.
movements are app. 12mm. this sounds little, but in fact the rodenstock35 digital and the schneider 35XL ( i think they are similar performers with an edge for the schneider ) allow more movements, but over 15mm shift they are not very sharp anymore. i dont like this and returned my 35 digital rodenstock and exchanged it to the HR.
Hi Rainer,
O.K..... You caught me. I was in a hurry and processed that file in ACR, so no LCC was available to correct the casts. I will post a crop later tonight. I did push it +1 in ACR to get the whites white, but I think it will still look pretty good. I don't have better samples, because night photography is not really a hobby. And yes, the Black reference is always the same length of the exposure.
Interiors are tethered 95% or the time, exteriors maybe 5%.
I agree here. Maarten, don't listen to someone who tells you to build a library of reference files. This topic requires your own testing. Each millimeter makes a difference. I have two lenses that will shift 25mm. That equates to 625 reference files for each lens.
Yes, the P25 is the same as the P45 in this regard. This is why I posted earlier that Maarten would be spoiled with the Aptus 22 not having to use any correction or converter before putting the images in many different RAW converters.
QUOTE
stunning your long time exposure, but it looks to me as if there would be color shift from left to rigth. something looks strange about the colors, maybe its just me.
for noise i would appreciate to see a 100% crop of it, its possible? but its clear hat the phase backs do a great job with long time exposures.
i did also some fullmoon shots and they have an amazing atmosphere,- but i used the canon for it. do you have to wait 20 minutes after the exposure for the black reference shot if you use the PO?
for noise i would appreciate to see a 100% crop of it, its possible? but its clear hat the phase backs do a great job with long time exposures.
i did also some fullmoon shots and they have an amazing atmosphere,- but i used the canon for it. do you have to wait 20 minutes after the exposure for the black reference shot if you use the PO?
O.K..... You caught me. I was in a hurry and processed that file in ACR, so no LCC was available to correct the casts. I will post a crop later tonight. I did push it +1 in ACR to get the whites white, but I think it will still look pretty good. I don't have better samples, because night photography is not really a hobby. And yes, the Black reference is always the same length of the exposure.
QUOTE
funny ... all architecture photographers i know mostly work untethered,- at least for exteriors. some work tethered for interiors, as i do sometimes too,- but really sometimes. you do the same, eric as you describe it, isnt it?
Interiors are tethered 95% or the time, exteriors maybe 5%.
QUOTE
and yes... thats theory that the white references can work if you one time have shot them, stored them in a "white file bank" and than you apply them to your shots which you do later. in fact you have to write down in this case every millimeter of movements and which aperture you used .... its much more work than to shoot a new lcc shot and apply it. and soon you will see also that this method sometimes works and sometimes not good enough.
I agree here. Maarten, don't listen to someone who tells you to build a library of reference files. This topic requires your own testing. Each millimeter makes a difference. I have two lenses that will shift 25mm. That equates to 625 reference files for each lens.
QUOTE
although with the aptus22 or the emotion22 there is no urgent need to shoot white files, with the P25 it is. as far i know this back shows extreme color shifts with movements.
Yes, the P25 is the same as the P45 in this regard. This is why I posted earlier that Maarten would be spoiled with the Aptus 22 not having to use any correction or converter before putting the images in many different RAW converters.
QUOTE (rainer_v @ Nov 8 2007, 03:29 AM)
if you dont have already the lens i would recommend the rodenstock 35HR. its not so expensive than the 28HR but exactly the same quality. no problem to use it at f4 without center.
movements are app. 12mm. this sounds little, but in fact the rodenstock35 digital and the schneider 35XL ( i think they are similar performers with an edge for the schneider ) allow more movements, but over 15mm shift they are not very sharp anymore. i dont like this and returned my 35 digital rodenstock and exchanged it to the HR.
movements are app. 12mm. this sounds little, but in fact the rodenstock35 digital and the schneider 35XL ( i think they are similar performers with an edge for the schneider ) allow more movements, but over 15mm shift they are not very sharp anymore. i dont like this and returned my 35 digital rodenstock and exchanged it to the HR.
Hi Rainer.
thanks for the tip, it will be my first choice, as I rather not work with filters whenever possible.
Do you have any experience with the Apo Digitar 5.6/47 mm XL?
Alpa has a version where it is decentered 8 mm on the lensboard, that is intereseting in combination with the Alpa SWA as it has only vertical shift.
At the moment backwise I am a little bit in favor of the SINAR, thanks to all the positive writings about Brumbear, I have to say that his value to Sinar is stunning !!!
But I will know more after working with the Phase ( a shame that I could only rent a P45 instead of the 25) and making some nightshots to see what kind of exposure's I'll get and if that may be the desicive point to get a refurbished Phase one.
I saw a picture of you in a Sinar Brochure, are you working, testing for with Sinar?
Maarten
QUOTE (meurten @ Nov 9 2007, 11:03 AM)
Hi Rainer.
thanks for the tip, it will be my first choice, as I rather not work with filters whenever possible.
Do you have any experience with the Apo Digitar 5.6/47 mm XL?
Alpa has a version where it is decentered 8 mm on the lensboard, that is intereseting in combination with the Alpa SWA as it has only vertical shift.
At the moment backwise I am a little bit in favor of the SINAR, thanks to all the positive writings about Brumbear, I have to say that his value to Sinar is stunning !!!
But I will know more after working with the Phase ( a shame that I could only rent a P45 instead of the 25) and making some nightshots to see what kind of exposure's I'll get and if that may be the desicive point to get a refurbished Phase one.
I saw a picture of you in a Sinar Brochure, are you working, testing for with Sinar?
Maarten
thanks for the tip, it will be my first choice, as I rather not work with filters whenever possible.
Do you have any experience with the Apo Digitar 5.6/47 mm XL?
Alpa has a version where it is decentered 8 mm on the lensboard, that is intereseting in combination with the Alpa SWA as it has only vertical shift.
At the moment backwise I am a little bit in favor of the SINAR, thanks to all the positive writings about Brumbear, I have to say that his value to Sinar is stunning !!!
But I will know more after working with the Phase ( a shame that I could only rent a P45 instead of the 25) and making some nightshots to see what kind of exposure's I'll get and if that may be the desicive point to get a refurbished Phase one.
I saw a picture of you in a Sinar Brochure, are you working, testing for with Sinar?
Maarten
i have not experience with the 47mm xl, but i use the rodenstock 45mm digital and this i do often. listened good things about the 47xl, i suppose they might perform similar ... but its just a guess.
i am not working for sinar, at least not in a direct form. sinar used several photos from different projects of me for advertisement and brochures ( mainly in asia ), also the code for the centerfold issue and the highlight recovery made by stefan during the work on brumbaer tools was taken over by sinar and since that time i am in contact to their technical departement in swiss, telling them what i think,- mostly related to architecture ( digital ) photography, issues, workarounds and ideas i have in my work with their backs.
my relation to stefan still is very close, so we phone often and chat. sometimes about the software sometimes about the life.
thierry became a good friend of mine after assist ing, inviting ( for great thai food cooked by his wife ) and helping me in the airport project in bangkok.
Click to view attachment
Is there place on the internet where I can find good examples of the colorcast issue?
There was a an issue with that beautiful 20 minute nightsnowshot from Eric.
I would like to see some more if possible and other known DB issues
Anybody ideas?
I find this one (centrefold?) myself using the aptus 75 a while ago.
Does the 22 have a centrefold issue as well, I read it happends easier with wide angles?
MaartenClick to view attachment
There was a an issue with that beautiful 20 minute nightsnowshot from Eric.
I would like to see some more if possible and other known DB issues
Anybody ideas?
I find this one (centrefold?) myself using the aptus 75 a while ago.
Does the 22 have a centrefold issue as well, I read it happends easier with wide angles?
MaartenClick to view attachment
As I understand it, the centerfold issue was unique to the Dalsa 33mp sensor. The Dalsa 22mp sensor has not shown the issue.
The Aptus 22 does not have color cast issues anywhere near what other higher megapix backs show. A Mamiya 35mm AF has looked free of casts so far on the A22. Samples I have seen of the Mamiya 28mm seems the same.
I think it's best to say, test for your unique shooting to see if a back will exhibit unfavorable workflow quirks, LCC as example. I think you can shoot a normal 645 camera and not have issues for the most part. Start using technical cameras and things can change, color casts may result from the lens chosen and shift/tilt movements.
I used a homemade view cam attachment with a Rodenstock 150mm on a Mamiya AFD/Aptus 22 and saw no color shifts with some pretty extreme tilts. That should say enough for the A22.
The Aptus 22 does not have color cast issues anywhere near what other higher megapix backs show. A Mamiya 35mm AF has looked free of casts so far on the A22. Samples I have seen of the Mamiya 28mm seems the same.
I think it's best to say, test for your unique shooting to see if a back will exhibit unfavorable workflow quirks, LCC as example. I think you can shoot a normal 645 camera and not have issues for the most part. Start using technical cameras and things can change, color casts may result from the lens chosen and shift/tilt movements.
I used a homemade view cam attachment with a Rodenstock 150mm on a Mamiya AFD/Aptus 22 and saw no color shifts with some pretty extreme tilts. That should say enough for the A22.
QUOTE (meurten @ Nov 11 2007, 11:21 AM)
Is there place on the internet where I can find good examples of the colorcast issue?
There was a an issue with that beautiful 20 minute nightsnowshot from Eric.
I would like to see some more if possible and other known DB issues
Anybody ideas?
I find this one (centrefold?) myself using the aptus 75 a while ago.
Does the 22 have a centrefold issue as well, I read it happends easier with wide angles?
MaartenClick to view attachment
There was a an issue with that beautiful 20 minute nightsnowshot from Eric.
I would like to see some more if possible and other known DB issues
Anybody ideas?
I find this one (centrefold?) myself using the aptus 75 a while ago.
Does the 22 have a centrefold issue as well, I read it happends easier with wide angles?
MaartenClick to view attachment
If you shoot without any shifts or tilts - for example, using an Alpa TC which has no tilt or shift capability - are lens casts a problem on Phase backs?
Curious minds (and perspective Alpa TC buyers) want to know :-)
Curious minds (and perspective Alpa TC buyers) want to know :-)
Maarten
The 22 can also show centerfold effects (emotion22) and has enough colorcast to use the plexi for every shot. So don't expect an easier solution with a dalsa chip equipped 22 MP back.
Regards
Dominique
The 22 can also show centerfold effects (emotion22) and has enough colorcast to use the plexi for every shot. So don't expect an easier solution with a dalsa chip equipped 22 MP back.
Regards
Dominique
[quote=Mort54,Nov 11 2007, 11:12 PM]
If you shoot without any shifts or tilts - for example, using an Alpa TC which has no tilt or shift capability - are lens casts a problem on Phase backs?
I'm using an ALPA SWA with shift possibilities up to 25mm, which I can't actually fully use with my current line-up: 35mm / 60mm / 100mm HR Rodenstocks and 180mm Schneider Digitar.
On my P45+ (as before on the P45) ALL the lenses show lens cast to some degree, the wider the lens the more! It's however absolutely no problem to completely remove it with the lenscast correction feature Capture One offers.
You simply build up a library of correction files for all the lenses and f-stops, including horizontal and vertical versions, and then choose them when you process the files.
So you don't have to shoot new correction files every time unless you use special shifts.
On many images, lens cast isn't bothering me anyway, so I don't even always use the correction files.
As I'm using Windows XP, I was checking backs and systems last spring and found the LEAF software wasn't working whatsoever: No way to remove centerfold on a windows machine!!!! On MAC it now seems to work fine.
And by the way: If you got the ALPA with a PhaseOne back, you should seriously consider the SW or SWA with the wake-up grip, trigger and cables for Phase One, as it's the best integrated solution there is for the wake-up signal required.
On the ALPA homepage www.alpa.ch you'll find all the details.
Hope that helps.
If you shoot without any shifts or tilts - for example, using an Alpa TC which has no tilt or shift capability - are lens casts a problem on Phase backs?
I'm using an ALPA SWA with shift possibilities up to 25mm, which I can't actually fully use with my current line-up: 35mm / 60mm / 100mm HR Rodenstocks and 180mm Schneider Digitar.
On my P45+ (as before on the P45) ALL the lenses show lens cast to some degree, the wider the lens the more! It's however absolutely no problem to completely remove it with the lenscast correction feature Capture One offers.
You simply build up a library of correction files for all the lenses and f-stops, including horizontal and vertical versions, and then choose them when you process the files.
So you don't have to shoot new correction files every time unless you use special shifts.
On many images, lens cast isn't bothering me anyway, so I don't even always use the correction files.
As I'm using Windows XP, I was checking backs and systems last spring and found the LEAF software wasn't working whatsoever: No way to remove centerfold on a windows machine!!!! On MAC it now seems to work fine.
And by the way: If you got the ALPA with a PhaseOne back, you should seriously consider the SW or SWA with the wake-up grip, trigger and cables for Phase One, as it's the best integrated solution there is for the wake-up signal required.
On the ALPA homepage www.alpa.ch you'll find all the details.
Hope that helps.
QUOTE (DominiqueMarcWehrli @ Nov 11 2007, 11:00 PM)
Maarten
The 22 can also show centerfold effects (emotion22) and has enough colorcast to use the plexi for every shot. So don't expect an easier solution with a dalsa chip equipped 22 MP back.
Regards
Dominique
The 22 can also show centerfold effects (emotion22) and has enough colorcast to use the plexi for every shot. So don't expect an easier solution with a dalsa chip equipped 22 MP back.
Regards
Dominique
if a dalsa22 ( e22+54 / a22 ) shows CF i.m.o. its "out of specs",- allthough brumbaer tools will remove this too, its compatible for both sensors. the dalsa33 ( e75 / a75 ) is a different story, even dalsa claims 3% tolerances between the six parts of the sensors,- so in some way you can say that the CF is the "normal" working situation for these sensors and its up to the companies to deliver working software solutions. with some cynism one can say that a dalsa75 sensors without centerfold is "out of specs" too.
during the work on brumbaer tools existed some beta versions, which "introduced" the CF issue to the e22, although it was not there originally. at that points the algorythm removed the CF for the e75 and created it for some e22 backs ( at least for mine ). some tweaking of the code from stefan removed that issue again, there should not be a version out which creates this effect.
in general there is no need for centerfold correction for the dalsa 22, not for the emotion22/54 not for the aptus22. do you have an e22 which shows a centerfold ?
for most of the people the color casts of the dalsa22 are insignificant enough that most work without correction. me i did the same, although i changed later , after starting to use the e75 and after seeing how uniform it has been, after applying the corrections. part of this uniformity also is the removal of every vignetting, but this is optical caused, not by the sensor. in general i do not see a problem to work with ths emotion22 without corrections as well.
this i cant say from the e75.
QUOTE (Jost von Allmen @ Nov 11 2007, 06:03 PM)
On my P45+ (as before on the P45) ALL the lenses show lens cast to some degree, the wider the lens the more! It's however absolutely no problem to completely remove it with the lenscast correction feature Capture One offers.
Thanks Jost. I had hoped that without shifts there would be no lens casts, since I don't like Capture One software (or rather, I much prefer Lightroom, and would prefer not to add yet another tool to my workflow). Do you know if the color cast correction could be applied in Capture One software after RAW conversion in another tool, like Lightroom? In other words, can Capture One be used to perform a color cast correction on a TIFF file generated by another RAW converter?
I've looked at all the Alpas, and would love to use the SWA. But my main interest in the TC is for a small lightweight rig to use on longer hikes. I have a Mamiya 645 with the P45+ now, and while it's not as heavy as some MF outfits, it's still heavier than I'd like (plus there's always the nagging feeling that I'm not putting the best possible glass in front of my P45+ - why have a P45+ and put "average" glass in front of it?). Of course, once you add the ground glass, a loupe, a hand meter, and maybe a viewfinder, I'm not sure there's much of a weight savings (especially with the Rodenstock HR lenses, which are the ones I'd prefer).
Decisions, decisions :-)
QUOTE (Mort54 @ Nov 12 2007, 03:02 AM)
Thanks Jost. I had hoped that without shifts there would be no lens casts, since I don't like Capture One software (or rather, I much prefer Lightroom, and would prefer not to add yet another tool to my workflow). Do you know if the color cast correction could be applied in Capture One software after RAW conversion in another tool, like Lightroom? In other words, can Capture One be used to perform a color cast correction on a TIFF file generated by another RAW converter?
I've looked at all the Alpas, and would love to use the SWA. But my main interest in the TC is for a small lightweight rig to use on longer hikes. I have a Mamiya 645 with the P45+ now, and while it's not as heavy as some MF outfits, it's still heavier than I'd like (plus there's always the nagging feeling that I'm not putting the best possible glass in front of my P45+ - why have a P45+ and put "average" glass in front of it?). Of course, once you add the ground glass, a loupe, a hand meter, and maybe a viewfinder, I'm not sure there's much of a weight savings (especially with the Rodenstock HR lenses, which are the ones I'd prefer).
Decisions, decisions :-)
I've looked at all the Alpas, and would love to use the SWA. But my main interest in the TC is for a small lightweight rig to use on longer hikes. I have a Mamiya 645 with the P45+ now, and while it's not as heavy as some MF outfits, it's still heavier than I'd like (plus there's always the nagging feeling that I'm not putting the best possible glass in front of my P45+ - why have a P45+ and put "average" glass in front of it?). Of course, once you add the ground glass, a loupe, a hand meter, and maybe a viewfinder, I'm not sure there's much of a weight savings (especially with the Rodenstock HR lenses, which are the ones I'd prefer).
Decisions, decisions :-)
It's not possible to correct lens cast with a tiff file, C1 can only do this while converting raw to tiff. I don't know of any other converter achieving the same high quality with my files from the P45+, including lcc.
I've been able to compare Hasselblad-, Mamyia-, Schneider- and Rodenstock lenses before I decided on buying my equipment. The Rodenstock HRs are incredible! They (and the Schneider Digitars) do however produce more lens cast then retrofocus constructions.
regards
Jost
QUOTE (Mort54 @ Nov 11 2007, 06:02 PM)
Thanks Jost. I had hoped that without shifts there would be no lens casts, since I don't like Capture One software (or rather, I much prefer Lightroom, and would prefer not to add yet another tool to my workflow). Do you know if the color cast correction could be applied in Capture One software after RAW conversion in another tool, like Lightroom? In other words, can Capture One be used to perform a color cast correction on a TIFF file generated by another RAW converter?
I've looked at all the Alpas, and would love to use the SWA. But my main interest in the TC is for a small lightweight rig to use on longer hikes. I have a Mamiya 645 with the P45+ now, and while it's not as heavy as some MF outfits, it's still heavier than I'd like (plus there's always the nagging feeling that I'm not putting the best possible glass in front of my P45+ - why have a P45+ and put "average" glass in front of it?). Of course, once you add the ground glass, a loupe, a hand meter, and maybe a viewfinder, I'm not sure there's much of a weight savings (especially with the Rodenstock HR lenses, which are the ones I'd prefer).
Decisions, decisions :-)
I've looked at all the Alpas, and would love to use the SWA. But my main interest in the TC is for a small lightweight rig to use on longer hikes. I have a Mamiya 645 with the P45+ now, and while it's not as heavy as some MF outfits, it's still heavier than I'd like (plus there's always the nagging feeling that I'm not putting the best possible glass in front of my P45+ - why have a P45+ and put "average" glass in front of it?). Of course, once you add the ground glass, a loupe, a hand meter, and maybe a viewfinder, I'm not sure there's much of a weight savings (especially with the Rodenstock HR lenses, which are the ones I'd prefer).
Decisions, decisions :-)
A main advantage of Leaf and Sinar is that the color casts are corrected and written into new RAW files which can then be processed in other RAW software.
The Phase solution applies the correction only to the output RGB file. It is an easy and fast tethered solution. For shooting to a card it is faster than Leaf to apply corrections, and slower than Sinar.
The new C1 Pro v4 is said to have DNG output from the Phase RAW files. As I understand it, the DNG files will have the color casts removed. We won't know this for sure until next spring when the software is released though.
Yesterday I was working with a Horseman SWPRo and a phase one DB.
Really had to get used to working this way.
Before i had a day experience with the Cambo wide DS and a Leaf back.
The Horseman to my taste is not a good camera at least for architectural work.
It is not geared, and if the screw is openend just a little to much the Phase back just slides down because of its weight. I would never want to switch lenses in the cold with four of those little screws that hold the lenspanel.
So Alpa defenitly is a good choice.
The other thing is that I couldn't get used to the wake up call of the back.
I even had a capture group cable that serves the back wake-up call and the lens shutter, but frequently made a mistake, waited to long.....
The shots are really nice... altough you really need the white-ref. final with every shot !
I was astounded by the fact that after taking a dark light shot of 19 minutes I had to wait 19 minutes for a processed file? the hours will fly by in the nighjt that way?!?!?!?
It's not my favorite back, but the software is nice! clean and crisp!
And the Lcc files are easy to handle.
Although as eric pointed out it is great as well when the colour correction is writen in the Raw File.
But I dislike the screen, this on ewas not a + series yet and it's suposed to be better.
Since I dislike working tethered with the laptop and avoid it as much as possible this is a good plus for the Leaf, to me that back worked easy.
Hopefully next week I'll be able to see a sinar at work.
Another question, rainer told me to go with the Rodenstock 35 MM HR Lens, and I like the fact that is sharp very with open F-stops, as he wrote before in another post, but how much shift can that lens handle ?
Also when i wanted to write the captured to my macbook, they were tiff files, only when imported with C1 were they imported as RAW??? any light on that?
Thanks for all the great comments so far,
Maarten
Really had to get used to working this way.
Before i had a day experience with the Cambo wide DS and a Leaf back.
The Horseman to my taste is not a good camera at least for architectural work.
It is not geared, and if the screw is openend just a little to much the Phase back just slides down because of its weight. I would never want to switch lenses in the cold with four of those little screws that hold the lenspanel.
So Alpa defenitly is a good choice.
The other thing is that I couldn't get used to the wake up call of the back.
I even had a capture group cable that serves the back wake-up call and the lens shutter, but frequently made a mistake, waited to long.....
The shots are really nice... altough you really need the white-ref. final with every shot !
I was astounded by the fact that after taking a dark light shot of 19 minutes I had to wait 19 minutes for a processed file? the hours will fly by in the nighjt that way?!?!?!?
It's not my favorite back, but the software is nice! clean and crisp!
And the Lcc files are easy to handle.
Although as eric pointed out it is great as well when the colour correction is writen in the Raw File.
But I dislike the screen, this on ewas not a + series yet and it's suposed to be better.
Since I dislike working tethered with the laptop and avoid it as much as possible this is a good plus for the Leaf, to me that back worked easy.
Hopefully next week I'll be able to see a sinar at work.
Another question, rainer told me to go with the Rodenstock 35 MM HR Lens, and I like the fact that is sharp very with open F-stops, as he wrote before in another post, but how much shift can that lens handle ?
Also when i wanted to write the captured to my macbook, they were tiff files, only when imported with C1 were they imported as RAW??? any light on that?
Thanks for all the great comments so far,
Maarten
QUOTE (meurten @ Nov 14 2007, 07:07 PM)
Yesterday I was working with a Horseman SWPRo and a phase one DB.
Really had to get used to working this way.
Before i had a day experience with the Cambo wide DS and a Leaf back.
The Horseman to my taste is not a good camera at least for architectural work.
It is not geared, and if the screw is openend just a little to much the Phase back just slides down because of its weight. I would never want to switch lenses in the cold with four of those little screws that hold the lenspanel.
So Alpa defenitly is a good choice.
The other thing is that I couldn't get used to the wake up call of the back.
I even had a capture group cable that serves the back wake-up call and the lens shutter, but frequently made a mistake, waited to long.....
The shots are really nice... altough you really need the white-ref. final with every shot !
I was astounded by the fact that after taking a dark light shot of 19 minutes I had to wait 19 minutes for a processed file? the hours will fly by in the nighjt that way?!?!?!?
It's not my favorite back, but the software is nice! clean and crisp!
And the Lcc files are easy to handle.
Although as eric pointed out it is great as well when the colour correction is writen in the Raw File.
But I dislike the screen, this on ewas not a + series yet and it's suposed to be better.
Since I dislike working tethered with the laptop and avoid it as much as possible this is a good plus for the Leaf, to me that back worked easy.
Hopefully next week I'll be able to see a sinar at work.
Another question, rainer told me to go with the Rodenstock 35 MM HR Lens, and I like the fact that is sharp very with open F-stops, as he wrote before in another post, but how much shift can that lens handle ?
Also when i wanted to write the captured to my macbook, they were tiff files, only when imported with C1 were they imported as RAW??? any light on that?
Thanks for all the great comments so far,
Maarten
Really had to get used to working this way.
Before i had a day experience with the Cambo wide DS and a Leaf back.
The Horseman to my taste is not a good camera at least for architectural work.
It is not geared, and if the screw is openend just a little to much the Phase back just slides down because of its weight. I would never want to switch lenses in the cold with four of those little screws that hold the lenspanel.
So Alpa defenitly is a good choice.
The other thing is that I couldn't get used to the wake up call of the back.
I even had a capture group cable that serves the back wake-up call and the lens shutter, but frequently made a mistake, waited to long.....
The shots are really nice... altough you really need the white-ref. final with every shot !
I was astounded by the fact that after taking a dark light shot of 19 minutes I had to wait 19 minutes for a processed file? the hours will fly by in the nighjt that way?!?!?!?
It's not my favorite back, but the software is nice! clean and crisp!
And the Lcc files are easy to handle.
Although as eric pointed out it is great as well when the colour correction is writen in the Raw File.
But I dislike the screen, this on ewas not a + series yet and it's suposed to be better.
Since I dislike working tethered with the laptop and avoid it as much as possible this is a good plus for the Leaf, to me that back worked easy.
Hopefully next week I'll be able to see a sinar at work.
Another question, rainer told me to go with the Rodenstock 35 MM HR Lens, and I like the fact that is sharp very with open F-stops, as he wrote before in another post, but how much shift can that lens handle ?
Also when i wanted to write the captured to my macbook, they were tiff files, only when imported with C1 were they imported as RAW??? any light on that?
Thanks for all the great comments so far,
Maarten
i shoot with the schneider 35xl and according to Leaf the 35HR lens is better with the Leaf back to reduce centerfold. I never tested it myself.
QUOTE (meurten @ Nov 14 2007, 07:07 PM)
Yesterday I was working with a Horseman SWPRo and a phase one DB.
Really had to get used to working this way.
Before i had a day experience with the Cambo wide DS and a Leaf back.
The Horseman to my taste is not a good camera at least for architectural work.
It is not geared, and if the screw is openend just a little to much the Phase back just slides down because of its weight. I would never want to switch lenses in the cold with four of those little screws that hold the lenspanel.
So Alpa defenitly is a good choice.
The other thing is that I couldn't get used to the wake up call of the back.
I even had a capture group cable that serves the back wake-up call and the lens shutter, but frequently made a mistake, waited to long.....
The shots are really nice... altough you really need the white-ref. final with every shot !
I was astounded by the fact that after taking a dark light shot of 19 minutes I had to wait 19 minutes for a processed file? the hours will fly by in the nighjt that way?!?!?!?
It's not my favorite back, but the software is nice! clean and crisp!
And the Lcc files are easy to handle.
Although as eric pointed out it is great as well when the colour correction is writen in the Raw File.
But I dislike the screen, this on ewas not a + series yet and it's suposed to be better.
Since I dislike working tethered with the laptop and avoid it as much as possible this is a good plus for the Leaf, to me that back worked easy.
Hopefully next week I'll be able to see a sinar at work.
Another question, rainer told me to go with the Rodenstock 35 MM HR Lens, and I like the fact that is sharp very with open F-stops, as he wrote before in another post, but how much shift can that lens handle ?
Also when i wanted to write the captured to my macbook, they were tiff files, only when imported with C1 were they imported as RAW??? any light on that?
Thanks for all the great comments so far,
Maarten
Really had to get used to working this way.
Before i had a day experience with the Cambo wide DS and a Leaf back.
The Horseman to my taste is not a good camera at least for architectural work.
It is not geared, and if the screw is openend just a little to much the Phase back just slides down because of its weight. I would never want to switch lenses in the cold with four of those little screws that hold the lenspanel.
So Alpa defenitly is a good choice.
The other thing is that I couldn't get used to the wake up call of the back.
I even had a capture group cable that serves the back wake-up call and the lens shutter, but frequently made a mistake, waited to long.....
The shots are really nice... altough you really need the white-ref. final with every shot !
I was astounded by the fact that after taking a dark light shot of 19 minutes I had to wait 19 minutes for a processed file? the hours will fly by in the nighjt that way?!?!?!?
It's not my favorite back, but the software is nice! clean and crisp!
And the Lcc files are easy to handle.
Although as eric pointed out it is great as well when the colour correction is writen in the Raw File.
But I dislike the screen, this on ewas not a + series yet and it's suposed to be better.
Since I dislike working tethered with the laptop and avoid it as much as possible this is a good plus for the Leaf, to me that back worked easy.
Hopefully next week I'll be able to see a sinar at work.
Another question, rainer told me to go with the Rodenstock 35 MM HR Lens, and I like the fact that is sharp very with open F-stops, as he wrote before in another post, but how much shift can that lens handle ?
Also when i wanted to write the captured to my macbook, they were tiff files, only when imported with C1 were they imported as RAW??? any light on that?
Thanks for all the great comments so far,
Maarten
centerfold does not exist with the sinar emotion75 backs,
with the dalsa 22mp back ( sinar + leaf ) there should not be centerfold in any case.
the rodenstock 28 + 35HR have a shift of 13mm horizontal on the dalsa sensor,- app. 1 mm less on the kodak sensor. this does not sound much, but in practice its not so less,- at least its 33% of the image height or an equivalent of 1,3" on a 4x5" camera. and i dont like shifting much more if the image quality decrease significant, and this was the case with the 35mm lenses i tested ( rodenstock digital ), after shifting more than 15mm.
the reason why i asked eric if there is written a black reference file after the long time exposure is exactly that you have to wait the same time than the exposure again till the files are finished. you should be clear about your needs here, clearing for yourself if you will use so often this extreme long times that its a worthy point for the purchase decision.
only leaf and sinar ( with brumbaer ) provide dng files where the lcc file is applied to.
be sure if you try the sinar that you use the brumbaer tools,- and try to figure out the correct workflow ( not difficult but needs some concentration to do it right the first times, you can feel free to ask me ). it can save you many hours in your daily shootings, at least if you use many white files- which will be the rule in architecture shootings.
although not 100% necessary with the dalsa 22 sensors ( in the leaf aptus22 and the emotion22/54 ) its the better way to shoot white files with the 22mp sensor too,- i.m.o..
Thanks for the info rainer.
the black reference is one more question to answer.
I looked up the specs on the Rodenstock. it says the lens has a movement range of 6 and 5mm at F 4, which is not much, considering when stopping down is willen even become less.
http://www.alpa.ch/files/products/154/rode...l_hr_e_2473.pdf
maybe I am not looking at the right specs please so say, if that may be the case.
Although I'm glas to hear that that it'd perfectly workable, and I think your right in not wanting to shift to much.
I will probably not be able tot test that Sinar at home but in their surroundings, at least I will take the files home and work with the Brumbear tools.
Maarten
the black reference is one more question to answer.
I looked up the specs on the Rodenstock. it says the lens has a movement range of 6 and 5mm at F 4, which is not much, considering when stopping down is willen even become less.
http://www.alpa.ch/files/products/154/rode...l_hr_e_2473.pdf
maybe I am not looking at the right specs please so say, if that may be the case.
Although I'm glas to hear that that it'd perfectly workable, and I think your right in not wanting to shift to much.
I will probably not be able tot test that Sinar at home but in their surroundings, at least I will take the files home and work with the Brumbear tools.
Maarten
QUOTE (meurten @ Nov 14 2007, 08:26 PM)
Thanks for the info rainer.
the black reference is one more question to answer.
I looked up the specs on the Rodenstock. it says the lens has a movement range of 6 and 5mm at F 4, which is not much, considering when stopping down is willen even become less.
http://www.alpa.ch/files/products/154/rode...l_hr_e_2473.pdf
maybe I am not looking at the right specs please so say, if that may be the case.
Although I'm glas to hear that that it'd perfectly workable, and I think your right in not wanting to shift to much.
I will probably not be able tot test that Sinar at home but in their surroundings, at least I will take the files home and work with the Brumbear tools.
Maarten
the black reference is one more question to answer.
I looked up the specs on the Rodenstock. it says the lens has a movement range of 6 and 5mm at F 4, which is not much, considering when stopping down is willen even become less.
http://www.alpa.ch/files/products/154/rode...l_hr_e_2473.pdf
maybe I am not looking at the right specs please so say, if that may be the case.
Although I'm glas to hear that that it'd perfectly workable, and I think your right in not wanting to shift to much.
I will probably not be able tot test that Sinar at home but in their surroundings, at least I will take the files home and work with the Brumbear tools.
Maarten
in that case you should use the brumbaer reader on yout laptop and read out of the back the raw files and store them to some dvd or hd. alternativ you can copy the files in the back to the cf card and let brumbaer "reader" later to load the files down to your computer.
the sinar software transform the files meanwhile reading it from the back to their .sti format ( as leaf does to .mos ), which means the original raw dat is lost.
this has an effect esp. to the highlight data which is only contained to 100% in all its three channels in the original raw data,- the original raw data of the dalsa sensors persist of the *.IA ( image file ) and the *.BR files ( black reference ) .
to get the full info out of the raw the converter programm ( as brumbaer ) needs to get the full info which is created by the sensor and which is only contained as long the data is not converted to the manufactor specific format.
although brumbaer can read and convert ( to .dng ) the sinar *.sti files as well, the highlight information is about 1- 2 stops higher, if you let the programm work with the original raw data.
this shift claim for the 35mm is very conservativ.
i work since two years with both lenses, the 35+28HR and both allow, without vignetting, horizontal shifts of 12-13mm and in portrait position around 10-11mm.
for the longer lenses rodenstock claims in their specs the same image circle from 70mm. i own and use as well the 60 + the 100HR.
the 60HR can be moved about 25mm and the 100HR even more,- without vignetting or sharpness decrease. this is the info for the dalsa sensor. the kodak sensor is a little bit larger, so little bit less movement.
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