I recently got a Mamiya M645 AFD-II camera and am looking at digital backs for it, specifically the PhaseOne P25+ and P45+ backs. My concern is that the P45+ back outresolves the Mamiya lenses. For example, with my Nikon D200 I notice a big difference in image quality when using professional/film lenses (17-35mm or 28-70mm) versus DX (18-200mm) lenses. The DX lenses produce images that look washed out and not as contrasty as the images taken with the professional/film lenses. I have read on the internet that MF lenses can only resolve about 22MP. I looked at the CAPTURE INTEGRATION website comparison between the P25 and P45 using a Hasselblad 501CM, and observed that the P45 image (39MP) looked a little washed out compared to the P25 image (22MP). Here is the link:

http://www.captureintegration.com/comparis...P45-vs-P25.html

Has anyone done any comparison tests with the P25+ and P45+ backs on a Mamiya M645 AFD-II camera, or with 22MP versus 39MP backs? If so, what is your experience? Also, does anybody have any experience with using a P45+ versus a P25+ back with the new Mamiya 28mm and 75-150mm lenses?

I have no idea how much the mamiya lenses resolve, but my HC lenses are stellar and resolve a lot more than 22MP (there is significant difference in sharpness on a 39MP image compared to a 22MP image using these lenses...) On my Digitars (schneider "MF lenses" for large format) I notice even higher resolution.

Check out the moaire/color errors in the fine mesh of the images before you decide... The P45 image has a nice rendering, the P25 image has some trouble in this area. If you shoot fabrics and other objects with fine patterns you'll be better off with a P45.

-axel

It should be added that the P1 anti-moire plugin removes 99% of all moire with the P25 extremely well.

I know it will annoy many Mamiya fans, but it is why many of us back, still , a Hasselblad (V) or Contax 645 platform; the glass.

Victor

Maybe, in the past, when you were a youngster it was true, but I spent a long time and didn't buy into either, because one is discontinued, and the other, the glass is now made by Fuji, and others (my better and elders), some of whom used Hasselblad for a very long time said (1) it wasn't as good, for the money required to buy it, and (2) the Mamiya lenses are not significantly worse, at a fraction of the price (bar the 28mm)

Your assertions don't annoy me in the slightest!

You buy the tools that suit you best and perform up to your expectations. I haven't been at all disappointed with the Mamiya! (...though no doubt you would be, not having the name Hasselblad or Contax on it )

Yesterday as I was cleaning some folders I send to the trash a PDF where the Mam lens were compared to the "I don't remember" lens... thought I wouldn't need it... and I can't find it anymore on google...
But the Mam were really good and sometime better... I know it doesn't help that much but this PDF exist somewhere...

Its on the mamiya website under lenses. My mamiya lenses resolve extremely well with my p45+
I have a schneider digitar 120mm macro on 4x5 camera looks as sharp as the mamiya 120mm macro.

Just to get off of the "Mamiya Vs. Fujinon/Zeiss" discussion for a bit, and back to the real question at hand: "can the mamiya lenses resolve at 39mp?"

The answer is YES. Are they better or worse than Zeiss and Fuji? Depends on who you ask, but they do have resolving power that is in line with 6.8micron pixels (and probably better than that still) of the 39mp sensors.

I had chance to have in my hands an AFD with the new Mamiya 28mm and I am sure there is nothing like that lens in MF reflex, there it was, a 17mm equivalent in MF with no visible barrel distortion. I don't think we will ever see something like that on the new Sinar/Rollei/Leaf system, and the only other one available manufactured by Fujifilm, I have not seen, but seams to be not as good as this one.

The only complain I have with my Mamiya lenses is that the 80mm has some barrel distortion and in general, the system would be perfect with some old "leaf" shutter alternatives for the fashion photographers that need to use flash outdoors.. and probably faster AF.

got it

I have to agree that the Mamiya lenses are amazing, no complaints what so ever, and cheap as hell compared to H equivalents. I also have to agree that the faster flash sync is all I miss (why can't they just make new leaf shutter lenses?), other than that the AFD is a true workhorse.

I guess I have to jump into this, I too use the cheap Mamiya 645 AFD with a P45 back. I have no problem with any of the Mamiya lenses. In fact I so cheap, I used their manual lenses on the AFD, since I shoot mostly landscape and things that don't run or walk. (If they do, I used the 1Ds MkII) I been a Hass user for over 30+ years, I got both their 500 series and their F series. Since I have so much Hass lenses, I got a adapter for the the Hass to used with my Mamiya. I don't see much difference, so I stay with the Mamiya lenses.

I thiink Mamiya makes 2 manul shutter lenses, 80 mm and 150 mm that wiill go up to 1/500 sec. for flash. I think I got the 150 mm. Damn lenses are so cheap, I went hog-wild. Yep! I still have those Hass lenses.

Unfortunately you can only use them with mirror up, and you have to manually cock the shutter. This at least for me renders them useless for outdoor fashion. I really hope mamiya are working on either AF leaf shutter lenses or a new body with faster sync.

Thank you all for answering my questions. I now feel good about getting a P45 back for my camera. Thank you David Olivier for the PDF on Mamiya versus Contax lenses.

Namaste
Daniel

I agree. I'm lucky enough to have both the 28mm and 75-150 mm. They do full justice to the P45+.

As for Mamiya vs Hassy, see the shootout on this site. Personally, I can't see the point of any "competition" - the results are so close as to be inconsequential. If my photos were as good as my equipment, THEN I'd be impressed!

Bill

Hi
When it comes to Mamiya glass, for there size, weight, cost they are excellent. I used to own a 500cm before I changed over to the Mamiya AF. I have never missed the Hasselblad. I also compared the H series 120 to the Mamiya 120 & in the end I felt the Mamiya had better tonality. Believe me they were very close. When it comes to the new 28mm lens I know one very prominent landscape photographer who owns a P45+, AFDII, 28, 75-150 etc. He loves it. For Phase One owners & you need a 28mm, Mamiya is the only way to go.

Thanks Denis

I can remember Fischer electronics touting .000001% harmonic distortion for a $200 amplifier, and people saying "oh those crazy audiophiles paying $2000 for an Audio Reserach amplifier - it only has .1% HD...

You can quote all the stats you want.

put a Zeiss lens and a Mamiya lens with respective cameras on a counter and say "you can have either one for free...

:-) quess what would happen

same with Patek Phillip and Rolex
Mercedes and Cadilac
etc etc
in the long run, esp after 150 years, people are not quite as stupid as we think..
there is a reason certain things cost more, and arguing it is just 'label lust' is jsut silly...
and as my sage grandmother said, "buy the best, in the long run it is the cheapest, but in the short run, well, you will have the best!

from my two words you end up with such analyze...
I don't think that I stated anything. Somebody ask something I gave him some paper sheet for him to build his mind.
The sheet talks about Resolution not feeling... Ok. Like vinyl and CD. Or like digital and film...
Did I say going with Zeiss is silly or something close to that...
No! so don't come to me that way.

LOL, you sound like some Zeiss evangelist. Maybe you spent a ton of money on hasselblad and now you really need to justify it to your self I've had both hasselblad (555ELD) and mamiya, but I kept the mamiya. I like you're analogy to watches, because just like patek puts generic cheap quartz movements in many of their womens watches but still charge "patek prices" for them, hasselblad now uses fuji lenses but still charges "hasselblad prices".. hehe

Seriously though, just enjoy whatever brand you like without knocking another when you haven't compared the two.

I used both the 500 as well as the H. I found the H lenses (the ones I used sofar) sharper and showing more resolution than my 500 lenses maybe with the exception of the 100/3.5 (Have never used the 40IF).

I have seen the test results of the Mamiya lenses against the Hassie Zeiss lenses as well. One thing that I noticed was that the Zeiss were performing a lot better in the center than the Mamiya lenses, according to the numbers in the test. Now with the smaller sensors (currently 48x36) we are using more of the center than the corners.

Anyway compared to some of my ZF lenses the H, CF, Mamiya lenses are not in the same league concerning sharpness, resolution, OOF & color rendition. (if only their image circle was much larger)

I believe that most lenses serve their purpose and outperform most photographers

Wo wo wo , wait a minute.. Did some one say you can use the Mamiya Leaf shutters with the Mamiya AFDII but you have put the camera in mirror lock up and manually crank it..?
That is not too bad if it works!!
My old Pentax 6X7 was manually cranked...:+}
Can some one confirm that the Leaf shutters DO work somehow?
I have been asking that question many times as I have the 55,80,150 Leafshutters collecting dust for the last 6 years!!!
Can someone please confirm that they work??
Manual or not I would love to able to use them again!!!!
Thanks for any further information on the subject!
Snook

Yes, at least that's what Mamiya USA told me.

Hear, hear

Mercedes is a very bad example to pick to support your point, and I'm not sure Cadilac is much better.

In fact Mercedes may be a very good example to disprove your point. A number of years ago they dumbed down their engineering to reduce cost (is this like Hasselblad?) and as a result quality suffered, reliability suffered and customer satisfaction and the cache of the brand suffered. Now they're not seen as the prestige car they were.

No, I guess Mercedes is a good example, depending on what you want to assert!

(I drive an Audi, that way I don't have to put concrete blocks in the back when the roads get frosty!)

Sorry if I offended; just want to put forth the perceptual vs technical as far as quality is concerned. I doubt Hasselblad OR Mercedes ar going down, not from the 6 mo wait I have for my next car.

However, the Mam is a fine platform, and the Contax unfortunately shares low synch speed with it. But I have found ways around.
I have liked Maniya Sekor from many (TOO MANY :-) years back, but it just the Zeiss and Leica look that I prefer, as do some (many??) others.

Keep an open mind though in SPITE of the 'label'

regards
Victor

No, you didn't offend me at all. Thought it was an interesting point you made and just wanted to give as good as I got !

There's nothing wrong with choosing a brand that is perceived to be 'classier' than some other, as long as it can deliver technically. Most clients don't care about equipment (and probably couldn't tell you more than one MF platform, if at all) but you might work in an area where they think themselves more 'savvy' (for all the wrong reasons).

Anybody asks me what camera I use, I tell them a Phase One. This usually ends the conversation, since if you don't say Canon or Nikon, they're lost!

i was told the same thing by the mamiya reps....

I cannot believe that people say, I was told by the rep...
I am sure there are many that would LOVE to have the capability to shoot with Leafshutter lens, especially when they are dirt cheap!!
What the Heck is up with this forum..
Are they all Landscape shooters in here.. Seems like it.
I guess I will have to let people know in a week or so because I am getting my AFDII next week and have a 55,80,150 Leaf shutter lens that are all 2.8 I might add... and I'll post if they work or not..
I guess all the Portrait and fashion shooters steer far from these forums. Seems that most in here are shooting trees an fields...
Snook

It seems you have trouble reading what people are writing.. like we were saying, they DO work, but only with mirror up and manual cocking of the shutter. This makes them pretty much useless for fashion photographers like myself.

OK thanks but how does it make it useless?
Care to explain just one step further.
You mean clicking the button for mirror lock up and twisting the ring ruins your shot some how?
Please do explain..
Did you ever use a Pentax 6X7 leafshutter lens before? About the same and I shot 1000's of NICE portraits with it.
So either I am missing something or you guys are completely spoiled...:+} JK
But really you mind explaining why it won't work for fashion shooters?
Thanks a lot
Snook

Well, fashion and portraits are two very different things. For fashion that is WAY too slow if you want to keep the mood going, you can't have the model waiting for you to fiddle with the lens on every shot. Not being able to see through the prism isn't exactly optimal either.

Snook,

If I had a motor driven film back for a 4x5 reflex camera, there is no way in hell I am going to cock the shutter for every single frame, with mirror lock up between frames, then lower mirror to check focus, framing, etc, for people shots, while handheld, and repeat the process for 100's of frames. That's kind of what were talking about here. High quality files with MFDB, with modern amenities, but 4x5 leaf shutter lenses and their need for all manual work. You are the first person I have ever heard talk about the Pentax 6x7 leaf shutters and the joy of using them. I know someone personally who still owns a P6x7 but not for people shooting.

I think that since we are in the realm of single lens reflex medium format cameras, motor drives and autofocus, the user required cocking the shutter is just plain silly in my mind for people shooting, and not talking about the RZ camera manual cocking which does everything in one motion. We are not all Dan Winters. No offense intended at all.

By all means, report back with your user experience of the Mamiya 645 leaf shutter lenses with your new P30 and AFDII. I really would like to know if it "works" in the practical sense.

delete

Thanks John an no offense taken..It is really hard to offend me..:+]
In any case I never said I loved cranking the Pentax but it did work. And there weren't many options. That is why I eventually bought Mamiya ProtL but back in the day those Leafshutter lens were rather expensive for a young starving artist.
ESPECIALLY if you do people Jumping etc, it comes in handy the fast sync.
To many photographers rely on 10FPS of a Canon for Portrait...? No I do not thank so...
In any case it may be a little pain but if there are no other options than buying a 35,000 hassleblad and or the RZ which I find to big for other applications, what is One to do.
Plus if you direct your models correctly you may take a few shot's and have the portrait.
You think shooting 4x5 or 8x10 is Fast.
Some of the Best photographers I worked with shot 8x10 portraits and were no speed daemons!!!
The problem with DSLR is that every thinks there a photographer now a days becasue they fire off a million shots hoping for a couple of good ones, I even found my self getting a little lazy with the Canon even though I shoot full manual and always 100 asa...:+}
I will let you and every here know if it is a real pain. I am hoping it works period and I'll be a little happier... I have been sick of 250th of the CAnons for far too many years now , but had no real other option...
Thanks
Snook