hello, with the new talk of the mamiya/phase parnership, I am wondering if there is still a chance that I will be able to use the new Rollei version of Hy6 camera with Phase backs, any news? does it matter that phase is partnering with mamiya?

You need to ask Phase this question. There has been no official announcement, afaik.

If I am not mistaken, the Hy6 system is a closed system that will only work with Leaf and Sinar DBs.

That was probably one reason more for PhaseOne and Mamiya to tighten the partnership, although the PhaseOne/Mamiya system will be an open one.

Looking at Phase's answer to the same question on their forum they seem to be hinting that you will be able to use Hy6 with phase backs one way or another, they don't give any details to functionality though.

http://forum.phaseone.com/viewtopic.php?t=4449
http://forum.phaseone.com/viewtopic.php?t=4172

In my conversations with Phase, I have been led to a similar conclusion, but without specifics on functionality or a timeframe.

It would be nice to get a clear answer on this question, wouldn't it??

-Brad

If Phase wants to do it, they only need to buy a camera body and figure out the electronic contacts.

If I remember well... the Jenoptik press release said that the hy6 branded sinar and leaf would work just with sinar and leaf DBs, and that the Hy6 branded rollei would work with F&H film backs. How can this one (Rollei Hy6) be chipped to fail contact with a P1 back? Seems pretty obvious they will make it work if they want.
And what's F&H's point of making a "film-only" camera"? To compete with the H2F?

Yes I found it:

"The medium-format camera body is the result of a collaboration between Jenoptik, Sinar, Leaf and Franke
& Heidecke. With its completely new concept the camera forms the powerful platform for two system
families (Hy6 and AFi) and will be sold exclusively by Sinar, Leaf and Franke & Heidecke and their
distributors. It is designed to work exclusively with Sinar or Leaf digital backs or the Franke & Heidecke
analogue film backs."

> Press release.

I must correct myself:
The press release doesn't specify witch DB will fit the "Rollei" Hy6. But It does mention the Rolleiflex Hy6.

This would work, and would likely not be too hard (assuming nothing is encrypted). But two problems with that approach spring to mind:

1) Firmware updates could easily break Phase's reverse-engineered compatibility.
2) At least in the U.S., a not-so-popular little law known as DMCA (Digital Millenium Copyright Act) might be able to prevent such backs from being sold here.

Still, I'd be interested in evaluating a solution regardless--Like everyone else, I just need to see the details to be able to make a good decision for my photography business.

-Brad

P.S. Or, it could be they're having trouble finding a Hy6 to buy... (kidding)

The weirdest thing of all is that PhaseOne actually does make a P20, a P25 and a P45 for the Rolleiflex 6008AF without ever advertising it. There is a company called Rollei Metric GmbH that uses standard 6008AF bodies and specially calibrated standard Rollei lenses for metrical use. The company is owned by PhaseOne for 20%. Phase supplies the backs, that have a shape which also fits any standard 6008AF or i2. Rollei Metric GmbH is located at the same address as the Franke & Heidecke factory. Check out this PDF spec sheet:

http://www.rollei-metric.com/uploads/files...al%20metric.pdf

Interesting, huh?

Bizarre, and very interesting. I never knew about this. Are you sure they will work with an ordinary 6008AF? Does their modification include a digital interface, or does the back need a cable connection to the flash sync port?

the announcement back in 2005:
http://www.letsgodigital.org/en/news/artic...story_3314.html

Inside the brochure attatched to your post it says:

"Rolleiflex 6008 body with fixed mounted digital back"

The text does not make it clear that you can take the back of the 6008 and attatch it to another body.

-axel

Yes you can put a film back if you want and no sync cable needed (not 100% sure). See this thread. Eric W had one for sale back in October.

The Rollei P20 is old news. What was new to me was the fact that there appears to be a P45 version too.

I'm pretty sure the "Rollei digital bundle" version is a different type than this option... and was sold through rollei and their distributors directly. The .pdf is not the same (in any way) as the Rollei digital bundle with P20... (And the company seems different as well, even though the partners are the same.)

-axel

The Rolleimetric is an ordinary 6008AF body. What is different is the added reseau glass with crossmarks inside the body which is mated with calibrated lenses for maximum reliability when doing measurements. The back is in fact a standard back that can be removed. The P20 is indeed old news, but the P25 and P45 are dark forces. The offering of the P20 was a spin-off of the availability of the Phase backs for the 6008 mount. No sync cable is used AFAIK. The big question is why the higher end Phase backs are not on ordinary offer for 6008AF, as Phase has already gone through the hassle of developing such backs.

Now what would happen if F&H sold Rolleiflex Hy6 bodies to Rollei Metric?

I stand corrected

And I hope Rollei indeed does sell some Hy6'es to Rollei Metric

-axel

Hi
This debate has been going on for a year now. The Hy6 project is owned by Sinar with Leaf also on this platform. This is a way of increasing market share for Sinar. Sinar has been running 4th for a while now. Even that poll on the other thread confirms this. I did a test with this camera last week with a Sinar back on it. This is not a camera that you can mount any back on it. This is a camera for Leaf & Sinar only.

There is no question that only Leaf and Sinar are to be officially used on the Hy6/AFi. We know the history of it and the reasons. And it has been confirmed over and over again. However, as the strange story with the Phase backs for 6008AF shows, anything is possible. I bet there was not one photographer here who knew that Phase ever made P25 and P45 backs for the 6008AF. Only the P20 has been known as available for the 6008AF at some point, under the Rollei brand name. These facts show that not everything is always what the officials say are the facts.

By the way, the Hy6 project is NOT owned by Sinar. It is owned by Jenoptik, currently the parent company of Sinar, but only a major Sinar stakeholder at the time of development of the Hy6 (called JMF 645AF at the time). Sinar was only marginally involved in the development of the Hy6. They are selling the Hy6 because Jenoptik has decided so. Franke & Heidecke, the producer of the camera, is delivering its Hy6/AFi products to Jenoptik from where they will be further distributed to Leaf and Sinar.

A lawsuit.

Where can I buy a Rolleiflex Hy6 with a film back?

I don't really understand why everyone is so insistent that phase can not make a back for the hy6. I don't see any legal issues or problems, besides possible firmware updates not being compatible. i know that for my car I can buy any part that is needed for my car, and it doesn't have to be manufactured by honda. I would imagine it is the same for camera's. If somebody wants to make a part for a camera, there is no legal reason why they can't, as far as I know.

Again, ask yourself why nobody has ever made an adaption of their digital back to the H3D body although the Hasselblad back of this H3D can be removed as can be removed the Sinarback from the Hy6 body.

Best regards,
Thierry

Interesting, however there are two very important differences between H3D and Hy6. The H3D is limited to not only H3D backs, even other Hasselblad backs will not work on it due to its firmware restrictions. Also the H3D body is not sold independently like the Hy6. It does not seem to be a problem of legality.

Thierry

Do you have any idea of how many Hy6's have been delivered to endusers,not
including demo backs for the sales force?

I speculate that this number might be one reason that Phase does not appear to be
rushing to allocate the necessary resources towards getting their backs to work with the Hy6

Add to the mix their recent announcement concerning their own branded camera and I
wouldn't expect they will be prioritizing efforts in the Hy6 direction.

Purely speculation,of course.

Mark

No, they are free to sell Rolleiflex branded Hy6 bodies without a digital back to anyone.

In upcoming December F&H will start shipping Rolleiflex branded Hy6 cameras to their dealers, when line production is steady enough to fulfill their contractual obligations with Jenoptik for the delivery of Hy6/AFi cameras. An adapter frame to be used with their already existing 4560 film back will be available. Next year a multi-format film magazine will be offered (realistically expected Q3 2008). It can be switched between 4.5x6 and 6x6. The design for it is finished and currently being prototyped.

For a better understanding of the time frames that F&H is locked into: the entire factory has some 85 workers, everybody included, from engineers to administrators to assemblers to directors to marketeers (uhm, that is: one marketeer). And these 85 people have to make Rolleiflex TLRs, SLRs, projectors, Hy6 cameras for third parties, lenses and accessories. It is very difficult to be working on a large number of new products at the same time with such a small staff.

Since PhaseOne is not a part of the Hy6 project where could they have received a Hy6? You can't make a back for something that doesn't exist. Maybe once they are plentily available they can order one from B&H and figure out how it works...

Yes Thierry - Why haven't anybody taken down a H3D? Do we have to wait for the chinese for resque. They already have their own BMW X5 with a touch of Toyota LandCuiser and Mercedes...

oh yes, and I even drove in one last week! But so far I've not seen any H3D with a "foreign" back.



Thierry

I hope Hasselblad will be the first to develop an adaptation for its own "foreign" back (CF line).

I don't think you understand the way commercial contracts work. It would be one thing for Phase to go out into the retail market and buy up a Rolleiflex Hy6 from a dealer, and a completely different thing for F&H, as the contract manufacturer of the Hy6 cameras that is legally permitted to only sell its variant with an interface for Sinar and Leaf backs, to sell a significant quantity of Rolleiflexes to Phase with the implied understanding that they would be converted into Phase Hy6s.
In any event, this is all idle speculation. There are so many copyright infringement and other issues around Phase trying to mate its backs with the digital interface of the Hy6 that it just will never happen. Phase is much better off focusing its resources on developing a new, integrated Mamiya camera system.

There are so few medium format users in the world that to develop a camera like Hy6 must be bordering total craziness. After spending fortunes on R&D why wouldn't they want to sell them as many as possible? I think it's totally naive to think that everybody will switch backs in order to get the new cool camera... Rollei with such long tradition will sure want back in to the business with enough hunger to sell hundreds of lenses, bodies and such. Somebody wrote that they are 85 now so there's plenty of expenses for any company to keep their salaries paid.

If Hasselblad want's to close the door on their existing customers and future sales of lenses and bodies that's their call. I don't think/hope all the other MF manufacturers are equally close minded. Poor Hasselblad lives a wet dream of being like Canon. MF cameras are not DSLRs waiting to be tossed away once obsolete every 6 months or so. MF cameras are modular systems that you invest into and upgrade along your career.

If it was up to me I would sell to anybody with enough cash. In a small market back stabbing will always cost dearly. I personally can not afford to choose my customers. Obviously some companies can.

MF world needs choices. Many here have expressed their interest towards Hy6. Maybe PhaseOne's Mamiya is not for everyone?

Patrik

And why would F&H sign a contract that prohibits them the selling camera bodies to the most popular DB manufacturer? Is it not in their interest to sell as much Rollei Hy6s as they can?

I believe F&H were approached by Jenoptik to build the new cameras. Jenoptik probably financed it in return for exclusivity.

Why would anyone want to design a back that is compatible with the H3D body? It is the same as the H2(physically) which backs are currently designed for , but has special firmware only for Hasselblad digitalbacks. Even Hasselblads own brand digital backs(previous generations)don't work on the H3D unless they get upgraded for a fee.

Also you cannot buy a bare H3 body, the H3D is an "integrated" camera solution.

So where is the incentive to put a "foreign" back on it????

I do feel there will be an incentive for someone to try to figure out the H2F. I wonder if the firmware can either be downgraded to regular H2 status, or if they are really going to disconnect a couple of wires to physically disable the camera not to be used by any other digital back manufacturers products. It seems to me it is more effort to do what they are doing with the H2 then just letting it be and allowing their users to buy new product as their platform of choice (for db of choice) or for back-ups to the system that they currently have invested in.

I am curious if their announcements have really lead to more back and glass sales or just forced people to consider other platforms instead of being locked in.

Lance Schad
Capture Integration - Miami
305-394-3196
lance@captureintegration.com

The speculation about "foreign" backs on different cameras is largely nonsense. Unless you're one of those people who is simply fascinated by machinery (as opposed to photography) why would you spend, say, $30,000 on a back that may or may not work well with a particular camera, that may or may not be supported in the future, whose firmware upgrades that may work well with the native camera might not work at all with your combination? Could anyone honestly say that they will see startling differences in the print if they were able to use, say, a Phase back on a Hasselblad rather than the Hassy back? And assuming that such a thing could even be done, there would be so few sales for Phase, you have to ask how much effort Phase would put into supporting such a project five years in the future. My estimate: none.

The hard fact is, I believe, that we will have three systems (or four, depending on how you count the Hy6). They will produce very similar IQ, with few differences except possibly in extreme blow-ups; those slight differences may be reflected in price (as between Mamiya and Hassy, for example.) So we wind up back in the film era: do you want to pay more for a Hassy, and perhaps get a slightly better lens and more prestige, or less for a Mamiya, and get everything you need for the high-quality magazine repro?

JC

Ditto.

Hasselblad is expecting people to spend over 30K USD on a back that is not even supported by any of their current bodies.

Hasselblad is claiming further develop the CF line of backs, with which I am pleased but currently there is no Hasselblad body that is in current production that can be used with the CF backs.

I find that a strange situation.

I would love to have an adapter for the H3 for my CF back. Yes, in that case Hasselblad also needs to start selling separate H3 bodies.

No the H3 is not the same as the H2. The H2 is a discontinued body and cannot be bought new anymore. The H2 is at the end of the line, the H3 at the beginning.

Not really. The H3D is not a back, cannot be bought as a 'back' and is not supplied in any other form than a paired camera body and digital unit.

But you can of course take that sensor unit off and use it with a view camera, or any other kind of camera that has an 'H' type plate or can be adapted to take an H type plate.

Jo S.x

I think that my posting record shows that I understand more of this F&H/Jenoptik relationship than most here. The contract says that F&H is not permitted to offer the Hy6 with any digital back. But selling bodies without a back is not restricted.

I am talking about the Hasselblad CF Backs! These are bought as a back and until previously were the only multishot backs available from Hasselblad (CF39MS & CF22MS). With the ending of the H2 this back, the CF, has no current body.

The Hasselblad CF backs use adapterplates to fit on many different bodies. Plates are there for: Mamiya, V, H, Rollei, etc.. but not for the H3.

The CF39 costs somewhere in the Mid 20K USD and the CF39MS well over 30K USD. You can only use them with the discontinued H2 if you want to use it with Hasselblad H. (You are not going to use a MS on a V body, at least not if you want to do MS).

THE CF BACKS ARE STILL CURRENT! Hasselblad even has announced future development of the CF. Hopefully that will be H3 adapter plates.

Jenoptik has indeed financed most of the development of the Hy6 in return for the rights to the new patents and the firmware. Additionally a number of Rollei owned patents went into the camera. So there is also a significant investment (mostly intellectual/labour-wise) from F&H's side in this new camera. That has lead to the right to sell the body with film backs, while the exclusive right to control the firmware has gone to Jenoptik. Jenoptik is the only company that can license the use of the firmware to DB-makers. But if someone else wants to work around that firmware there isn't much Jenoptik can do. (I think they should be happy selling cameras and lenses anyway. That will also bring in money, although maybe not as much as selling DB's. A well represented platform is in anybody's interest, except that of the competition.)

I'm currently H2 (and three lenses) user and I'm ready to switch as soon as the new Phaseone camera is out. Hasselblad will be history for me.

I can assure you that Jenoptik's legal advisors would not share your interpretation of the contract language governing the relationship between F&H, Jenoptik and Leaf.

HassleBlad gambled and Lost if you ask me..
I never liked Hasssleblad apart from their optics which are great. But their recent decision to close out the other guys was a Bad marketing move. also going closed system was a bad move. Would not be surprised if the new HDIV went back some how...:+}
If Leica is the rumored lens company that will work with mamiya then Hassleblad is really going to be hating life...
Snook

What a complete non-sequitor. Who said anything at all about Hasselblad? What is your obsession with Hasselblad? Do all topics have to be redirected back to that, with a level or religious fervor? See if you can contribute to the topic at hand without the H word.

You just have to read yourself to see who's contributing to the topic.

Just to be clear, Hasselblad has made H3D bodies available, as of several months ago, to allow H3D/II users the options of having a backup body. They are priced at $3,557.00 MAP (Part #3013160) and require "joint calibration and adjustment" with an existing H3D/II system.

Also, Hasselblad CF-Series digital backs are compatible with the H2F. Just as PhaseOne, Leaf, and Sinar backs are compatible. However, all of them (including Hasselblad's) will require the use of a PC sync cord.

I believe it is obvious the majority of Hasselblad's "effort" is being focused on the products that are in demand, and generate appropriate profit margin (ie. digital). Analog products (bodies and lenses) do not provide adequate margin without digital products being tied to them. This is evident today, in every digital back on the market, including PhaseOne.

Regards,

Jordan Miller
DTG