i have searched but haven't seen any updates or real fixes re. the subtle roller marks on the 3100. visible from an angle on glossy but straight on when using hann. smooth fine art paper.

seems to me that i read on here a bit ago that a fix was gong to be available in dec?

unfortunately i can't give any work to the galleries or museums with this marking on it.

thanks for any and all information

steven

HP tech support told me that there will be a retroactive hardware fix at no charge. They said the parts will be available in late December or early January.

Mary

I walked into Calumet yesterday and was asking about their paper testing with some of the new gloss paper types and asked the salesperson how they were faring with transport roller marks. The guy said that they had no issues at all, since they had switched out the rollers with the new design. He showed them to me and the are now brown, slightly softer and slightly larger in diameter. I'm looking forward to seeing this solution implemented across the board and crossing this off my list of issues. Sooner, rather than later, is fine by me.
-Ron H.

Excellent! thanks.

now all i have to do is make sure i can get through to an HP rep who knows about the fix...

thanks again.

Hi -Ron H.,

This is very good news. I was getting worried (more worried than usual).

I was hoping you can tell me what kind of papers Calumet was testing, if you know.

I think my printer's in the que for this, but I need to double check.

Any light you can shed is appreciated.

Thanks, and so long for now, TOM

This was an in store employee at Calumet SF that was doing his own testing on their 24" Z3100. He was in the process of running everything in sight through it, although they don't yet have Hahnemuhle Bamboo or Epson Exhibition Fiber yet. He did manage to get his hands on some Harman Gloss (although they aren't carrying it yet) and had no marking on it. He was about to run some Moab Colorado, which I'm interested in, but hadn't yet when I was there. I need to stop back by there when things are saner for me and really look through their sample prints when I have more time.

One more funny fact. He said that they had installed this in their printer and two client's machines and that it is an easy, user installable upgrade for anybody with a little technical know how. It does, however, require a very specialized tool to install: the cap to a Bic pen. I don't know the world pen market very well, but I hope this isn't a problem for Ernst and our European Z contingent!

-Ron H.

I think Bic is a French company.

Hello,

Do we have to pay for this "upgrade"/ fix? HP has already replaced the unit for me once, but it was with the second generation fix not this newest one.

thank you

Whew!

Regarding cost, it is only $19.95 plus shipping and handling.

Joking aside, it is a free upgrade. I just don't know the particulars of timing or how it will be implemented. The parts that were replaced for Calumet were shipped direct from Spain to HP in San Diego, who forwarded them to Calumet to install themselves.

-Ron H.

That's great news. I look forward to getting the kit and installing it.

I called HP Support today to inquire about the status of the new rollers since I had no luck printing on the new Harman FB Gloss. My first level support person, Jen, put me on hold for about 4 minutes and then came back and said I would have to prove a roller mark issue on HP media to be eligible for the retrofit. I explained how the Z3100 was specifically designed to allow use of 3rd party papers and that I knew the rollers had been redesigned to accommodate the new FB glossy papers among others based on user feedback. She said "sorry, that's the policy" so I asked to be bumped to the next support level.

A few minutes later, James got on the phone and spouted the same line about only supporting HP media. We had a friendly discussion where I simply repeated the mantra "but the Z3100 was designed specifically to work with HP and 3rd party media" about 7 or 8 times after which he agreed that I could have the retrofit when it was available. It took a while, but he finally fessed up that it should be in a week or so. He agreed to give me a case number with notes to the effect that I was approved for the retrofit when I called in next time so I could avoid all the HP defenses against providing its customers with engineering improvements to the printer.

Don't take "No" for an answer, but stay friendly and calm if you have to deal with this.

Jim

which number did you call? i have had mixed luck sometimes getting bounced around.

good advice, I also have found that keeping it friendly no matter how frustrating it gets tends to help on tech lines and in airports.

Steven,

1-800-474-6836. It seems they have changed the options since the last time I called a few months ago. They ask more questions, but you get to where you need to go on the first time.

Good luck,
Jim

thanks jim.

Some time ago I heard that Italy was experimenting with a small shim like gadget that would be inserted by the end user one on each side of the printer to take a bit of pressure off of the rollers. Maybe this is that. Alan

Well that was painless so far. asked me if i had ever used non hp paper. i said no since i haven't yet.
but i have a feeling that saying no to that question might have dodged a potential "bullet".

put me on hold for about 1 1/2 min. and came back asked if these where marks about the width of my finger or thumb. (yes) . told tell me they're sending a person out to replace the starwheels and the platten. i mentioned that i knew there was a problem and fix for the rollers as well he said he would have them work with those as well.

nice person.

whole call took about 5 minutes not counting the nice electronic lady who enthusiastically let me know that i was "doing great!" in answering her questions to direct me .

we'll see how it all turns out.

thanks for all your help here.

Nope, just slightly larger diameter pressure rollers made from a softer material.
-Ron H.

Unlikely solution as it would also reduce the friction on the transport axle and by that create transport length differences and banding. The solution must keep the right friction on the underside of the paper so the same total clamping power as before but give a better distributed and possibly reduced pressure on the top which is possible with slightly larger rolls that are also softer. I also thought that it would be better if the rolls could adjust their angle to the paper individually, the existing design doesn't give that freedom. I checked them some time ago to see whether I could make a solution myself but there isn't enough space to make the rolls thicker with a short soft tube and a roll that can't roll would be a disaster.


Ernst Dinkla

try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

Hi all!

The roller marks you are talking about - are they only on the front of the paper ar also at the back?

Reason to ask is: I tried printing double sided paper and I had roller marks on the already printed side after the second run.

Will the upgrade also fix this problem?

Thanks,

Clem

well.... the tech made a house call. nice guy. we talked a lot about the problem. he looked at the prints and ran a few prints. he noticed that the marks got worse as you went up the page. also the edge of the marks almost looked like kind of water marks that had dried on a glass like a residue.

he changed out the starwheels and assembly since that was what HP had sent him. they had backordered the other parts.

he inspected the rollers and noticed that there was a slight curve in the rod. put everyting back together and reprinted.

no roller marks.

i ran a calibration test and got the marks again. i realized that brad (the tech) had turned off gloss enhance. so i turned it off as well and tried again. .... no marks.

so.... it seems as though the gloss enhancer is not drying fast enough and is accumulating? the rubber rollers are underneath the paper opposite the star wheels.

the small plastic rollers on top are before the print head and shouldn't affect the surface that way.

so.... i am thinking (for any HP folks on here...) that the problem may be the softness of the GE and drying time required of the GE?

this of course does not apply to those of us getting the marks on the fine art papers (mat surface) unless for some reason you are forgetting to turn off the GE.

just a thought...

I would think that the rollers are affecting the coating before printing and the GE is just revealing that surface alteration or even increasing it. Either because gloss usually shows texture more or because the surface differences created does allow the GE to be absorbed more on one spot than the other. I have this with some fiber papers with and without gloss enhancer and not with the art papers like PhotoRag that print fine. The RC papers with and without GE do no show it either.



Ernst Dinkla

try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

I had a HP engineer at my place last Thursday to replace the star wheel assembly on my Z3100 44" (it was damaged when a piece of cut paper jammed), and to replace the pick roller. Turns out that the pick roller they sent me was the same part number as the original, so we decided that there was no point in changing it. He called HP, and they told him that the revised part is not yet available.

Mary

which probably explains the backorder on one of the parts when the tech came to my place.

I have just recieved a replacement priter after a 6 week nightmare (may relate on another post!). Can I easily tell if i have the new or old assembly with the new machine? It came with 50004 firmware and was brand new.
Thanks
Ric

If you are asking about the pinch rollers, the new ones are tan colored, and the old style are black.
-Ron

just an update.

spoke to the online tech today to see if the work order had been closed. the visiting tech left the work order open so i guess he has decided to wait for the backordered part and then return.

the online tech seemed to be familiar with the problem. he suggested that in the meantime i use multiple pass which would give the GE extra time to dry. i told him i really didn't want to double my ink usage for a long time. i had already reset the drying time to max to no avail.

he seemed to be understanding and when i asked if i should call back next week, he suggested that i call late this week.

Thanks- I will take a look

I've got an update on HP's roller replacement policy:
Other people have reported that HP is doing a bit of stonewalling about replacing the rollers with the new design, but I just called about another problem I'm having (repeated printer crashes and 79-04 error messages), and mentioned that I'm also still having issues with marks on some papers. The tech support person asked if I was having issues with any HP papers and I said yes. He accepted my description of the problem with no issue and said that they will be installing them along with the other part that appears to be behind my crashing problem, and will install it all on Monday, Christmas Eve. I was prepared for a little resistance, but really got none. If I had said that I was only having the problem with non HP papers, I might have gotten a different response, but I was pleasantly surprised by how easy it was to order the new design.

I will report back with my experience, as soon as I can try it all out.

-Ron

I look forward to hearing experiences with the new rollers from HP. I sincerely hope they work and HP will help users like myself.

I have black colored rollers which are presumably the older ones.

Here are my Z3100-24” paper experiences so far:

Epson Exhibition Fiber
Roller marks are present in 4/5 prints and on all calibration targets. The one good print was done with GE on, extended dry time and no added passes. All subsequent prints had the dreaded marks. Settings I have tried are Fine art Pearl (more ink) and Fine art Pearl (less ink) with and without gloss enhancer. Drying time and number of passes does not seem to make a difference but I have not tried all combinations as that would be very expensive. It seems like the new rollers will be essential to get the printer to produce consistent roller mark free output on this paper. Given the high cost of the paper I would not want to risk losing output from erratic printer behavior. It is my favorite paper so far for B&W (early days).

Hahnemuhle Fine Art Pearl
Gloss enhancer was on. Fine Art Pearl setting was used. Roller marks with roll fed paper if the paper passes by the roller more than once and at the beginning of the roll when there was more “drag” on the paper. The majority of the roll was printed without roller marks being a problem.

Epson Enhanced Matte
No roller marks

HP Premium Instant-dry Gloss
Standard HP recommended setting. Roller marks on initial print off the roll but no subsequent roller marks were seen.

Masoom (Toronto)
http://www.haiderimages.com/

So what happend?
john

I'm sad to report that my printer has been DOA since right before Christmas. The other, non paper transport related problem got worse, so now the printer crashes almost every time it is restarted. The faulty part is called a formatter, and it seems to be a circuit board that controls information input to the printer's CPU. The part that is needed is on backorder and is supposedly coming in next week. This is the first failure of HP's next day warranty repair for me, but a rather egregious one, in this case.
-Ron H.

Ok, its well into January. Is HP delivering on the new rollers or not?

john

Word is that my rollers are already in the hands of my local HP technician and would already be installed in my printer if my formatter board that makes the printer unusable was available. It is supposed to be in on Thursday, so I will report back then. I've seen them installed in another printer too, so they are more than just talk, at least.
-Ron H.

just to clarify, what color are the old rollers, and what are the new? Could you post the part # when he replaces them, pretty please!! : )
Chris

Update: Roller Assembly

I got home from an all day engagement last night to find my HP tech support guy's business card stuck in my front door. We had talked three times while he tried to figure out the right part for the new rollers, but he never called back to make an appointment. He drove from Phoeniz to Flagstaff (2 1/2 hours one way) with no appointment. I called him when I got home and he said that he guessed he screwed up. He confirmed though, that he had the new rollers in his possession, along with a newly designed motor to add to the star-wheel assembly to reduce the pressure of the that assembly on the media. He tells me that this motor does not exist on my current printer. This will be interesting when he can get back up here next Tuesday.

I'll keep you updated.

Jim

Thanks, Jim. I look forward to your next update. If it works I guess I'll be calling HP.

Since the starwheels rotate passively and do not have a drive shaft, per se, I'm really curious about this motor as well . . .
I'll be sure to ask the tech who is visiting me today, if this isn't a part of my new roller package being installed.
-Ron H.

I promised to report back after my tech visit, and unfortunately, I got the worst possible news today regarding the new rollers.

The new pinch rollers that the tech guy brought today, that were ordered as "new design" rollers by the phone tech support person who placed my repair order, were the exact same ones that the machine came with. Quite honestly, I'm baffled by all of this.

When I first opened my case with this issue, the first level tech said that there were no known paper transport issues with the pinch rollers and no new design. After I told him that I had seen the new design and knew of three printers that had the new design installed, he checked with someone in the second level and completely changed his story. He said that there indeed was a new design, and placed an order for it.

Today, after catching my field tech up on all of this, he called HP and was told by first and second level support that none of what I told him was right. No new design, no new part number, no known reports of paper marking from pinch rollers. Since I was adamant that I had seen these parts with my own eyes, he pressed the issue and was told that HP Global Support would look into it. He is expecting a call from them at some point.

In an effort to be proactive, I called about this as well. Pierre, who was helping me, asked the three top second level reps about this and all of them say that they know nothing of any of this. Until someone from the HP Global support division gets back to us, the only thing that Pierre and I can surmise is that this is still a beta fix and not 100% official. I called the tech from Calumet who showed me his new rollers and has installed at least two others, my original source, but he says that he got the rollers from HP, but didn't notice what the part numbers were for the new design. Since I didn't buy my printer from him, he was not willing to call HP for me to see if he could get a straight answer himself.

So until someone else from HP calls back with different information, it looks the possible scenarios that would explain this are: I was hallucinating, I'm lying about what I saw, or the guy from Calumet made his own from parts in his back room and lied when he said they came from HP. Oh yeah, or HP is confused and/or lying themselves . . .

Frustrated, very frustrated,
Ron H.

Well now, I'm even more curious as to what pinch roller assembly the rep will bring out to me next week. When I pressed him on making sure that he had the right part on last night's phone call, he said it was the the "new design" and was the "latest and greatest".

I guess we'll know something on Tuesday.

Jim

Don't worry, be happy.


The new pinch rollers that the tech guy brought today, that were ordered as "new design" rollers by the phone tech support person who placed my repair order, were the exact same ones that the machine came with. Quite honestly, I'm baffled by all of this.

When I first opened my case with this issue, the first level tech said that there were no known paper transport issues with the pinch rollers and no new design. After I told him that I had seen the new design and knew of three printers that had the new design installed, he checked with someone in the second level and completely changed his story. He said that there indeed was a new design, and placed an order for it.

Today, after catching my field tech up on all of this, he called HP and was told by first and second level support that none of what I told him was right. No new design, no new part number, no known reports of paper marking from pinch rollers. Since I was adamant that I had seen these parts with my own eyes, he pressed the issue and was told that HP Global Support would look into it. He is expecting a call from them at some point.

In an effort to be proactive, I called about this as well. Pierre, who was helping me, asked the three top second level reps about this and all of them say that they know nothing of any of this. Until someone from the HP Global support division gets back to us, the only thing that Pierre and I can surmise is that this is still a beta fix and not 100% official. I called the tech from Calumet who showed me his new rollers and has installed at least two others, my original source, but he says that he got the rollers from HP, but didn't notice what the part numbers were for the new design. Since I didn't buy my printer from him, he was not willing to call HP for me to see if he could get a straight answer himself.

So until someone else from HP calls back with different information, it looks the possible scenarios that would explain this are: I was hallucinating, I'm lying about what I saw, or the guy from Calumet made his own from parts in his back room and lied when he said they came from HP. Oh yeah, or HP is confused and/or lying themselves . . .

Frustrated, very frustrated,
Ron H.

[/quote]

The tech that I was finally able to get through to seemed to understand after he checked with someone else.

He was going to order 4 parts to send to my service person in the area. (des moines).

The first person on line seemed to have trouble understanding me and eventually created a new work order then transferred me to a technician which seemed to understand a lot more about the design jets z series than most. this one was named kevin.

we'll see how it goes when the service person contacts me.

I have a minor update on my struggle with HP: I was told this morning by my field tech that HP is not aware of any problems with pinch roller marks and does not have a redesign in the works. Since he is generally a pretty noncommittal guy, this didn't come from the field tech. HP will, however, try to figure out what issue I'm having, if I send them a sample print on HP paper, as I'm the only person worldwide that has reported this issue.

Meanwhile, back on Earth, I paid a trip to Calumet to discuss (and hopefully photograph) their new rollers in their 24" Z3100. My contact there was a little nonplussed by my asking him about the rollers again, since I didn't buy the printer from him, and didn't seem keen on my taking a photo. He did, however, graciously agree to email me the Word document he was sent with roller installation instructions. It is obviously an internal document from Barcelona and could not look more pre-release than it does, but it has details of the whole installation process. I was also told that the rollers were sent directly from Spain to the US office that is responsible for printers in San Diego, then on to Calumet.

I'm willing to give HP the benefit of the doubt regarding their intentionally lying about the roller development, and can easily imagine that the techs at the first and second levels are not aware of anything in the pre-release pipeline. The part about being the first to report this issue, though . . .

Thankfully, I was also given the names of three HP employees with knowledge of the new design (Jacint Humet, Joe Sandoval and Lee Kundal, if that helps anyone else's case). I have no idea what their jobs titles are, but forwarded the installation instructions and these three names to my field tech to pursue further. I'm hoping this will provide a little traction in this odd corporate dance. For some possibly misguided reason, I'm keeping the faith.

-Ron H.

PS: The same person from Calumet suggested that I pursue this through the dealer that sold me my printer, on the sales side vs. through tech channels. I've had no contact with my dealer whatsoever, and it never occurred to me to go through them, but he said that he got results by contacting the National Sales Manager for HP, so I will try a multi-pronged attack from here on.

So did the guy at Calument say his is utlizing the Z for fiber gloss work without any roller marks?


john

Well, I've got my HP tech (Roger) showing up sometime around 10am this morning with, supposedly, the new pinch roller system and some unknown motor newly designed for the star wheel assembly. I'll keep everyone posted.

While reading the new docs in the Z3100 Wiki from HP regarding "working with other commercial papers" I see they now reference a paper preset for "Fine Art Barite" paper. It is highlighted in orange on the reference table for which preset to use with which third party paper. However, following HP's own links for downloading new paper presets, this one isn't there.

I find it interesting that they have developed a preset for all these baryta papers, especially since my difficulty on getting tech support to replace my rollers revolved around these papers and haveing issues with non-supported non-HP papers.

Anyone been able to find this new preset for the Barite papers yet?

Jim

well, since i went directly through HP's educational division that may not help much

i have another visit from the field tech who says he has a new set of rollers to replace the ones he said were slightly bent on mine. we'll see if they are the new design or not.

is it possible to get a copy of the "barcelona document" to show him?

John- I think we are in agreement about the political side of this issue.
Regarding the new rollers, he showed me a dozen or so challenging stocks he had printed on, with no marks on anything. Very encouraging to see.
stevenh- Here's the document. Don't laugh when you see it. Many months ago I was sent another unofficial document from HP about oiling the printer that was also surprisingly crude. The part about the cap of a pen is seat of the pants engineering at it's finest.
-Ron H.

Update: Ok, so here's the scoop. Not good. Roger shows up with a pinch wheel assembly for a Designjet 130 instead of the replacement rollers for the Z3100. No wonder he was told they were the latest and greatest since they were for the wrong printer. He calls his tech center in Seattle and they don't know anything about new rollers for the Z3100.

Thanks to Colorwave's posting of the Installation Instructions this morning (good timing, by the way) Roger told his Seattle tech guy that he was looking at the HP instructions to install the new softer, tan rollers so there must be new parts. The Seattle tech guy would not escalate the issue without all the normal steps to reproduce the issue and then the sending in of samples. The call was over.

Roger knows the main guy at the Boise tech center where all the training occurs and who basically are the front line guys for all development after things come down from Barcelona. He will call him this afternoon and try to get the ball rolling. Roger left with a color copy of the Pinch Roller Install doc,

As to the star wheel motor, that part he had with him, but there were no installation instructions available. There are supposedly already electrical connections and a mounting place for the motor inside the printer on the left side (according to Seattle) and the motor is designed to lift the star wheel assembly slightly as the print nears the end of its travel to eliminate start wheel marks on the trailing edge of the print. Roger didn't install it this trip as he wants to find specific instructions before he attempts it, and maybe try it out on another printer first. This didn't bother me as I haven't had star wheel issues since the assembly was replaced a couple of months ago.

It may be another week or two until the pinch roller saga can continue.

Jim

[quote=Jim Cole,Jan 15 2008, 07:34 AM]
Well, I've got my HP tech (Roger) showing up sometime around 10am this morning with, supposedly, the new pinch roller system and some unknown motor newly designed for the star wheel assembly. I'll keep everyone posted.

stevenh- Here's the document. Don't laugh when you see it. Many months ago I was sent another unofficial document from HP about oiling the printer that was also surprisingly crude. The part about the cap of a pen is seat of the pants engineering at it's finest.
-Ron H.

Hilarious!

On the other hand, it looks simple enough that I might want to try it. I'd feel guilty dragging a tech all the way out to my home in the boondocks to replace such a simple part. Mayby HP could...you know...just mail the part to users?

Just sayin.

You guys are scaring me, chill out.

john







[quote=Jim Cole,Jan 15 2008, 12:46 PM]
Update: Ok, so here's the scoop. Not good. Roger shows up with a pinch wheel assembly for a Designjet 130 instead of the replacement rollers for the Z3100. No wonder he was told they were the latest and greatest since they were for the wrong printer. He calls his tech center in Seattle and they don't know anything about new rollers for the Z3100.

Thanks to Colorwave's posting of the Installation Instructions this morning (good timing, by the way) Roger told his Seattle tech guy that he was looking at the HP instructions to install the new softer, tan rollers so there must be new parts. The Seattle tech guy would not escalate the issue without all the normal steps to reproduce the issue and then the sending in of samples. The call was over.

Roger knows the main guy at the Boise tech center where all the training occurs and who basically are the front line guys for all development after things come down from Barcelona. He will call him this afternoon and try to get the ball rolling. Roger left with a color copy of the Pinch Roller Install doc,

As to the star wheel motor, that part he had with him, but there were no installation instructions available. There are supposedly already electrical connections and a mounting place for the motor inside the printer on the left side (according to Seattle) and the motor is designed to lift the star wheel assembly slightly as the print nears the end of its travel to eliminate start wheel marks on the trailing edge of the print. Roger didn't install it this trip as he wants to find specific instructions before he attempts it, and maybe try it out on another printer first. This didn't bother me as I haven't had star wheel issues since the assembly was replaced a couple of months ago.

It may be another week or two until the pinch roller saga can continue.

Jim

[quote=Jim Cole,Jan 15 2008, 07:34 AM]
Well, I've got my HP tech (Roger) showing up sometime around 10am this morning with, supposedly, the new pinch roller system and some unknown motor newly designed for the star wheel assembly. I'll keep everyone posted.

[/quote]

John,

The intent of this post was not to scare anyone away from the Z3100. I am only experiencing roller marks on the new baryta papers, which are only in expermental mode right now. All my production work is on HP Pro Satin and HP Smooth Fine Art which give me outstanding results. I am truly happy with the performance of this printer for my photographic work. HP's tech support system is having a problem communicating the existence of these rollers within the company.

The fact that HP is even responding to issues related to 3rd party papers that we would like to use is quite extraordinary. If I have to wait a while for the new rollers, I'm fine with that.

I have had overall an outstanding experience with this printer. There have been a few rough spots with the tech support (showing up twice with the wrong parts), but the issues were dealt with quickly and professionally.

I am in the "happy camper" bunch of owners with this printer.

Jim