Never seen it mentioned here but boy is the Focus Critical with Medium format!!!
Your a Hair off and the Picture goes to hell...
I used to get away with a lot more with the Canon 1DsMII...:+}
I have been shooting with the P30 and the RZII and the AFDII and both are way tooooo critical when you are focusing.
Speaking of which does anybody know if they make a Split Screen for the RZIIPro D?
Ever since Digital I have been having the hardest time with Focusing properly...:+{
And I have 20/20 vision.
Anybody else have troubles focusing properly with Medium format?
Any rules or techniques? Seriuosly
I just do not get it.
Today I shoot all day in my studio and the model was basically against a white wall.
If she leaned ever so slightly forward, we are talking Millimeters she would be out of focus.
Actually many times the focus was on her waist (belt) and her eyes would be way out of focus on a knees up portrait!!!
RZIIProD Tripod, single light source.. pretty basic.
Thanks for any help or condolences...:+}
Snook

My eyes AREN'T 20/20, so the keeper rate is a joke some days. Though the low keeper rate makes post processing pretty quick! In regards to the AFD II, I have the prism screen and a 2X viewfinder magnifier. Neither is a silver bullet, and the combination of the two means every shot will be a center focus based composition. That combo is great for product type work, but lousy in a real-time environment.

The irony of that is, center focus with Mamiya AF is okay. I need help for when the composition is not center focus oriented. I'm thinking a 1Ds3 might be the ultimate focusing aide later this year - and I'm not real happy about that solution...

Snook,
Focus, focus, focus. Take advantage of micro-adjust focus knob on your RZ. (only found on the Pro / Pro II / Pro IID). The AFD certainly takes some practice to hit focus, especially coming from the 35mm DSLR world.

My best suggestion is to practice as often as possible. You could look into a viewfinder magnifier, but that can be a bit cumbersome in certain, fast-paced environment. A split-image focusing screen should help quite a bit on the RZ.There are a few options here:

Mamiya RZ67 RangefinderSpot/Microprism Focusing Screen (#212-426)
Same as Matte, but with a 45° split-image rangefinder wedge surrounded by a microprism collar. Highly versatile 3-way focusing (rangefinder, microprism, and matte). Ideal for general purpose photography.

Mamiya RZ67 Vertical Split Image Focusing Screen (#212-427)
Same as Matte, but with a vertical central split-image rangefinder wedge added. Matte surface can be used for focusing, but the vertical split-image feature makes focusing easier and more accurate for subjects such as portraits.

There are some other focusing screens available as well. You have some microprism options, as well as crosshair, etc.

With regard to the AFD, again the same applies. Veiwfinder magnifier is an option. You have only one focusing screen options from Mamiya:

Mamiya 645 AF-DII Microprism Type C for Non-AF 645 Lenses (#211-713)
Same as Matte, but with central microprism spot added. Provides an alternative Rangefinder Spot screen for enhanced focusing precision with the manual focus lenses. When using the manual focus lenses in the stop down metering mode, this screen must be used.

With practice, and some more refined tools, as described above, you should have no trouble getting focus spot on.

Good luck.

Regards,

Jordan Miller
DTG

Have you checked your focus screen? I have heard that some of the mamiya screens were flawed from factory (with a cup shape instead of flat) - worth checking out. You can also get a custom focus screen from someone like Bill Maxwell or Brightscreen.

I had the same experience when I went to MF - but actually focus is just way more critical with digital not just MF. The better the glass you have the more you see the point of focus (and what's not in focus). You can't compare apertures from 135 to MF either so whatever you shot at with your 1DsII you'll need to stop down 1 or 2.

Thanks for the replies so far.
Maybe I should add a couple of things..
I do have the Maxell screen installed.
Also I am shooting people if that was not obvious so them moving a little bit certainly changes things.
Also I started photography with Medium format so am pretty familiar with it even though it has been many years..
I think your right that digital is less forgiving.
I was shooting mainly at F11 with the RZII and I usually shoot around F8 with 35mm(Canon)
It is just going to take some practice I guess.
Back in the Film days Mamiya ProTL and Pentax 6X7, I was actually known for having hardly ANY pictures soft on the focus. Maybe I am just rusty.
In any case thanks for the comments.
Snook

The difference with film is what we are looking at. Checking files at 100% on screen might not be the best way to assess whether an image is suitable for a given application.

But, i fact I am not convinced that focus is really such an issue with MFDB. Here is why.

The ironic part is that critical focus is only a must for these applications with very little DoF, meaning applications where the impression of sharpness derives mostly from the contrast between OoF areas and sharp ones.

All in all, my view is that for the applications where little DoF is needed, a 1ds3 with a 85f1.2 and AF is the best tool available:

- Less DoF than with MF lenses since 35 mm lenses open a lot more,
- Critical focus can be achieved easily with AF,
- Only a few pixels are really sharp and the difference between 39 and 21 MP is IMHO not that great.

Now there are of course other considerations like the look of Bokeh etc... that might prevent some from using Canon lenses but that has nothing to do with focus.

For those applications where limited DoF is not required, then focus stops to be critical (just shoot at f11-f16) and MFDB become a great option.

Cheers,
Bernard

Firstly is your camera front or back focussing, a small (1/10mm) misallignment of mirror or chip will cause consistent front or back focus compared to manual focus

You should do some tests

OK you kit is working.

Then how do expect to see an image that you can look at 2m high on screen properly when you are looking through a viewfinder that is less than 6cm high !

IMO the resolution is just too much for any eyes - I think digital focusing aids absolutely required.

Solutions ?

Still life/landscape - shoot tethered and zoom

Hand held ?

Well I use my H1 single point AF all the time lock and recompose

AND bracket focus by rocking forwards and backwards between shots - makes me look a bit nuts

This isnt really good enough and is cr&p on a tripod

I think you should look at the viewing experience on HY6 and H1 cameras - way better than my old 645afd IMO - I havnt used a Mam67

Of couse a smaller aperture may make a slight misfocus more acceptable but not really IMO

Other solutions? - well I have thought about taping a laser onto the top of the camera SWAT team style and focusing on the red dot - it would be nice to have a laser that switched off during the exposure

Brighter modelling lights ?

For say runners I am interested in having the camera fire when an IR beam is broken does any one know a link for this kit

Fundamentally the MF systems are ALL a DISSAPOINTMENT thier AF and live view facilities are very much 80s technology when compared to a technically excellent offereing such as my D3

That the HY6 is still centerpoint only AF is IMO a real shame

Any improvement in MP in DBacks would seem to be a waste of time for dynamic shooters without improved focus aquisition technology

The focus aquisition technology on MFdbs is a joke compared to 'face recognition' available on $200 compact cameras !

I would swap to any MF system that had multipoint AF with a wide selection of sensors - maybe the new phase mamiya ??

IMO the future is DBs that can analyse data hitting the chip (yes maybe a peicle mirror would be requred) and use that data somehow - this should also allow the zone to be anywhere in the image - not just in 1, 11 or 50 points predesposed by the manufactuer - how the hell do THEY know where I want to focus

I have looked at the focus spacing on both the D3 and Ds3 and neither has any focus points that correspond with any point of critical focus of ANY image in my portfolio (the spacing is too close)

You are not alone

S

I find the focus a wonderful improvement.
With the canon I could never focus 100% on the eyeball or on the eye when hairs were before it.

With the MF system even on AF it hits straight on.
For me it's a HUGE improvement.
But it's slower, that's true.

I have to add that I have VERY steady hands.

I didnt say DSLR was good - I said MF has a long way to go - there a many things that make DSLRs unpleasant to focus..

Small screen , poor sensor spacing

S

I did not comment on you my friend

More in general

If your images are out of focus at f/11 you are doing something seriously wrong. Just focus on the eyes and recompose. The AFD even has focus confirmation, it couldn't be easier. I have no trouble getting my photos consistently sharp.

I agree, I find focus much more critical with MFDB. The focal plane appears to be much thinner than you might expect basing it upon depth of fields tables used with film.

I find I need to be much more accurate with MFDB than with film, the higher the pixel density the more critical it gets. My 17Mp backs are less critical than the 39Mp's.

Whether this is because looking at files 100% makes us much more critical about acceptable sharpness or other reasons I am not sure.

Another thing I always notice is that when you are just slightly off you are getting punished immediately where I got away with it with film (in most cases).

You simply have to be careful. This phenomena has been mentioned more than once in several different places btw.

I agree, the focus is very critical. It is an area of MF Dig that has been left behind. The files are just so crisp and there is none of the natural softening that happens with processing and scanning film. The area in focus just jumps out at you.
I use a H1 system and with wide angle I tend to rely on the lens distance scale as a check when doing interiors (often in dull light). I don't like having to upset the composition I have just achieved so that I can position the centre focus point somewhere elce in the scene just to check focus.
For people I tend to use the 120Macro when needing the longer than standard lens look. I think I should really have the 100mm f2.2 or the 150 f3.2 as these would probably give a better idea for manual focus (getting one of these lenses is on my list). I am often shooting in a studio using flash, so the ambient light for focusing by is low.
I think Sam is right and AF needs imrovement, at least 3 points to choose from... preferably 9. Maybe now that we are seeing integrated systems in MF this is one feature that will get attention, rather than becoming a reason for why MF is not good for some shooters.
David

No need to have steady hands as I am shooting on a tripod in studio.
I have the same problem that my modeling lights are not that bright. 250W and I have some 500 watts also but they get pretty hot.
I just find it strange that sometimes when RZ is on tripod and it is flat to the subject and I focus on the belly or waist that the eyes can be so OOF at F11.
Also I do not have as much trouble with the AFDII as they are AF lens except for the Macro which I am still trying to figure out.. weird how the center spot kind of DIstorts the face or eyes when you are trying to focus.. Like they get a balloon effect until in focus, if that makes sense.
I have a Bill maxell Focusing screen... (sp?) and it is kind of matte in my RZII.
I think I might try out some Split screen screens.
Can anybody suggest which one I should try out? Or which one NOT to buy...:+}
Seen some on e-bay relatively cheap so I would like to at least try them out.
Also I do not think that measuring distance like cinema guys would work for people shot's as if they move ever so slightly they will be OOF.
Also does anybody have any links where someone could learn a little about focusing by the numbers on the side of the lens? (RZ) mainly?
I really appreciate your help as usually...
Thanks guys
Snook

That's not true, especially when shooting close in to the subject.

http://www.visual-vacations.com/Photograph...mpose_sucks.htm

He was saying how he couldn't get a full length photo in focus, not an extreme close-up.

Doesn't have to be extreme close-up for it to be a factor. Did you read my article? Focus-recompose can cause back focus even shooting full length. It's less of an issue with longer focal lengths and greater subject distances, but when you're complaining about critical focus being off a few inches, it's something you need to take into account.

Yes I've read your article. The fact is however that I do it all the time, even with shoulder length close-ups with no problem what-so-ever. So I'm afraid I'm going to have to go with real life experience instead of your article. But that's just me.

My experience is that, on a tripod, you always compose first and then focus. It is true that recomposing after focusing can cause focus problems. But this technique is very common in MF because you have only one focus point, so focus and recompose is normal handheld. I always look at my focus point after recomposing to see if it goes out of focus, then adjust it manually if needed.

Shooting with and RZII with Winder 127mm lens and Bellows hoods, I am not going to Focus and re-compose! For obvious reasons.
And they are not necessarily full length shot's...
Knees up sometimes are tricky aswell.
Snook

I shoot with Rz and A75s. All my work falls in between 2.8-5.6 and 4.0 accounting for 90%.
My shooting eye is minus 2. With all this obsticles I still manage to get an average of 90% of images with critical eye brow focus and 95% with publishers acceptable focus. Granted the best images are always off but this is rule of everybody's life in photography. Sometimes I thing that they are the best just because they are off focus. The best way to achieve critical focus is by mixing strobes with small HMI. I keep all modeling lights off on strobes keeping the studio very dark and use one 125W grided HMI as a following spot on the face of a model. The contrast becomes very visible and the focus just jump in. Yes you have to have an assistant to operate the spot but it truly pays off.
Additionally by adjusting shooter speed you can get beautiful glow at desire intensity on model face without affecting all your main lighting.
http:andrenapier.com

Thanks Andre for the info.
I have been wanting to try out a similar system. turn off modeling lights and some how clamp a nice bright light in the same direction as the strobe for focusing.
Do you use the HMI because the color of it's light or just because you happen to have one?
Thanks again
Snook

I shoot outdoors mainly with a Mamiya AFdII.
I find the focus confirmation works pretty well plus I do very careful focusing back and forth to find the exact point I want in focus (on tripod)
when handheld it's abit hit or miss. I find this is where the zoom lens really comes in handy:
zoom in, confirm focus on the point you want, zoom out and the focus should be the same.

There are several advantages of using HMI over tungsten. 125W of HMI provide amount of light equal to 500W of tungsten but is neither as hot nor distracting to a model. 500W of yellow light directly on face makes even the most experience model to squint their eyes. Yellow dot registered in model pupil is not really a pleasant accent in an image. Combination of 2800K on face with 5500 on body makes it difficult to correct in post. Shooting with lower speed than 1/125 you can often see the effect of blinking light (60Hertz){ similar to a bad scan} with tungsten bulb while HMI is truly continuous light. ETC.
Additionally I grew up on HMI's working in lighting crew on movie sets so I learned to understand an appreciate its effect.
Andre

Andre,
What does the gridded light do to the size of the pupils? Some people think the large pupil looks dead, other thinks it gives a doe like innocence. Is the light strong enough to constrict the pupil somewhat?

Paul

What would be the next best option besides HMI price wise..:+}
They are pretty spendy just to be using for focusing...:+}
Are there any other daylight balanced options?
Snook

well at last, I totally agree
MFDB focussing is a real problem
Personally I use a Hasselblad 503CW with a Phase P20
I used to work on film. Out of hand I had a focus hit-rate of 95%
now with the P20 I get mostly 45% in focus
It is really true, if your subjec moves a few cm, its out of focus.
I use the x2 viewfinder, even then, the same problem
further more, Focus , then change your aperture, make several exposures, and you'll find many of them out of focus.
Now I understand why Hasselblad invented the ultra-focus featyre in the H series...

I must admit that the hit-rate of my small nikon D200 is higher, much higher

I did not like the H series, I expect more of the Hy6, who knows

The best way to get ultra sharp images out of a MFDB is focussing on your computer, use a tripod, choose 1 aperture, and stay with it !

For some reason, I find myself going back to film on MF the last weeks
certainly for black and white, I never got rid of my darkroom !

Sorry to be so blunt maybe but there must be something wrong with your setup.

I changed from DSLR to MF and I get a 99% hit ratio with both manual focus and AF lenses.
Maybe the 645AFD/II has better focus than the bodies you use but I don't believe that.

I shoot alot of fast stuff, jumps, fashion etc. and get as mentioned before a 99% sharp exposure, even on the jumps.
I do use spotfocus on the 645AFD/II by the way, but most of the time I use the 120MM macro with manual focus.

I always check the eyes and I love to shoot at f11 for portraits so that doesn't give me alot of DOF.



Maybe it's indeed in the focus screens, I use the Leaf focus screen but what I can see it's exactly the same as the Mamiya version only with crop lines.
With the ZD back I also had no focus problems.

Is it will ALL lenses ?

Frank Again I am talking mainly about the RZ but also find it with the 120mm macro on the AFDII.
That shot actually looks a little soft on the her eyes but is hard to tell from a web shot.
Frank, I guess your shooting with tripod and are you focusing where you think the girl will "end" up?
Or are you focusing on her waist or eyes when she is standing ready to jump.
I am glad you get a 99% keeper rate which sounds extremely high especially for jumping shots.
But it looks like you have mastered that.
I have always had problems with jumping shot's due to my Profoto's not have a very short duration and the focusing problem.
My keeper rate is like 65% I would say.
I shot 2 days last week where the girls were against a wall and not moving hardly at all and I still had trouble keeping focus and it get's harder as the day goes on...:+}
I usually have my computer assistant keep C-1 up with the focus tool on the face and constantly keeping an eye on the focus. Every shot!
Again,
DOES anybody know which is the best split image screen I can get for the RZIIproD?
Thanks for the replies
Snook

125W HMI from small distance is strong enough to constrict pupils. Size of a pupil is a matter of taste and very from model to model. Generally darken skin models eg. Latin models photograph great with wide open pupils, but I would hate to see it on pale blue eye blond. I personally do not mind big black pupil as long as you can avoid huge umbrella reflection. Gridded reflector provides harsh directed light so as with all open sources I try to light it only with the edge of a light avoiding the center spot.
Andre

If money was concern I would use large 300W spot light bulb from your electric supplier the kind you use for outdoor lighting. I believe it is BR40. I use them on occasion when shooting abroad.
Andre

It sounds to me like the HMI focus light might be the secret. Maybe the longer wavelengths associated with tungstun are harder for our eyesight to make out fine details, and that a more agressive light source like HMI suits us better. That is apart from the obvious increase in contrast you get from having a strong hard light source on your subject.
David

I find Hasselblad V the hardest to focus of all cameras when shooting with prism and somewhat challenging with WLF. I used it for few months and gave it up. Hasselblad H is the easiest camera to focus manually with prism but there is this big but that I hate its drawing wide open.
Andre

Frank,
You are a Master.
99% jumping shots?
I thought I was a super pro with 50% of jumping images with the right composition.
Andre

Frank,
From your sample image, I'm not surprised that you get 99% keepers - looks like you are really pretty far away from the model to get all of her head to toe with arms out and still have that much space around her in the frame with the 120mm lens. At f/11, your DOF in that case is probably 1.5meters or more.

F11 thats very different from F4 or F2.8 and full lengths the focus is nearer infinity and therefore the DOF is greater too

Nice pic though

Part of this is choosing the right tool for the job and working out how to gain focus with the available tools and thier limitations

My focus on this image was probably about 10% (H1 at f4) - he was really running and popped up from behind the hill very quickly

And it was nearly dark and there were no modelling lights on the portable flashes !

Hence the interest in the IR trigger

S

I would say you have to give the Model A LOT of credit for jumping consistently in the same exact location as well Frank...? :+}
99% really?
:+}
Snook

Let's clearify somethings

The jump shots are not 99% keepers, I think about 2 out of 10 are really 100% the way I want them, and even than only 2-3 out of each session are REALLY the way I want them when everything comes together, but that is not because of focus, that's because of pose, timing etc.
I find the MF alot harder to time than a DSLR, but I have the hang of it now and have app 8 out of 10 timed correctly, however the model will always jump different so there is a real problem which is not solved very easily.

The jump shots are taken at app a 80mm and between f16-f11.

My PORTRAIT work and most other work is done with the 120mm and mostly between f8.0 and f16.00 with a sweetspot for my eyes at f11 (a little bit depending on distance).

What I meant to say, but obvious did not come over right, is that I have no problem with FOCUS on the AFD/II so I advised to check the system.

If I take a NORMAL session so without the jumping, just normal portrait and beauty work I get a 99% hit ratio in focus, the system hardly misses a focus.
I don't use a tripod by the way, I do sometimes when it's necessary to get a consistant framing.

I have to add that even with the 5D I often used manual focus because I hated the large focus spot of the 5D, stepping to the macro mamiya is a wonderfull stepup, focussing is very easily due to the larger viewfinder and the precise focus setting of the lens.

It does take some time however during the session that's why for the faster paced sessions I use the 150mm AF.

I would LOVE to have a AF selection were you can select the top for example, but I responded to this thread because for ME PERSONALLY the step to MF has given me much better focus than my DSLR did.

Don't take it the wrong way as it is not meant that way, than I would just shut up and not post anything.





adding about the jumps.
Trust me on this one, I have been doing movement in sessions for the last 4 years and it took me 3-4 sessions to get from 5% keepers on the Mamiya to the same ammount as I had on the 5D.
The problem is I still shoot sports with the 5D so when I shot sports and I take the Mamiya I have to readjust for the slower mirror, but normally that takes now 2-3 jumps.
But as mentioned before not ALL shots are also good with jumps.
What I mean with hit ratio is the shots that are frozen, are in focus and are in on the floating point (not going up or down).
Composition is often way off because you can tell a model to keep her arms compact, but doing so is often difficult
posing in the air is something that also only 3-4 of my models can REALLY do, the other ones is just shooting a lot and if it doesn't work out using a small trampoline.

For the workshops I have 3 models that I dare to use for the jump shots, because they actually nail a jump every time.
The example I posted is from Stephanie, those where shot during a workshop I teached and I shot 20 frames and 4 were keepers were everything was absolutly perfect (see www.doorhof.nl/models in the Stepahnie folder were I posted 3 of them), normally as mentioned before with jumps you will have a very low hit ratio were composition/expression is right, but that was not the basis of my post, sorry if that was misread.

Hello,
now I understand why you have in focus images f16 ,F22 gives you enough DOF to play with.
Me from the otherhand, like to use wide open lenses often for portrait F4 and F2.8.
It was NEVER a problem doing this on film, and having perfect focus, and I still do.
But with MFDB it IS a problem.
It must be the surface of the CCD, I think, that is different, maybe too flat, or flatter and reflection by film.
I also use the D-flash 40 and it fails measuring the OTF reflection for calculating its flash cut-off, when using MFDB.

Well only on jumps I use that small aperture.
(I tried to write it down carefull this time, please re read )

For portraits I use anything between f8 and f16 in the studio (mostly f11), outside it's almost always wide open so f4 or f3.5 (I only have one 1.9 and 2.8 lens )

Film is totally different indeed.
I shoot film for fun sometimes, but it doesnot come close to the sharpness I get from the leaf back.

But I'm not complaining by the way, I get good focus from my setup, although shooting wide open is somewhat of a riscy endeaver sometimes, but so was shooting on f1.2 on my DSLR , it's snooks post but somehow I did not write down my post as I intended so I explained.

Again for me switching to MF digital was a wonderful thing, but as mentioned before I focus very carefully.

Snook... have your maxwell screen checked. I've read (will try to find the links) in several places where the after market screens may need calibration. I'd bet yours has been, but never hurts to check.

If your focus rate is ALWAYS inconsistent, that seems more like an equip prob than a photog prob.

Snook,
Do a focus check, and calibrate the screen position, I think it's user-adjustable on the RZ.
However, be aware that with digital even @F11, in-focus belly often means OOF eyes.

Edmund

Snook

The may be a bit simple and I apologise if you think it is too basic, but its something that tripped me up when I had an SLRn. I accidentally bumped the diopter adjustment without realising it and was thinking I needed to go get my eyes checked because nothing was sharp. If its just a bit out it makes focus hard. I don't have an RZ anymore and I don't remember how easy it might be to do that.
regards,
David

In regards to screen on Rz I have purchased all of them. Each one of them requires adjustment with digital backs. My Beatty Brightscreen was 7' off from 25' distance. Maxwell screen was 5' off on the same distance. The difference between Mamiya factory screen was not that drastic and fell in 12 inches +- distance. Easy to adjust but a definite must with all of them. Mamiya sells special screwdriver to make this process painless.
With my personal experience Mamiya split image screen is the best way to go.
Both Maxwell and Beatty provide much brighter screens however they also add grain which make it extremely difficult to see the eye lashes on a full body shots.
Just my opinion, but I have them all sitting in the studio.
Andre

Andre,
Where is would the information be about adjusting the screen in the Mamiya? Mine is out with the A75. Would love to be able to tweak it into place.
Thanks

Andre your tlking about the RZ right?
And Do let us know if you have some link or more information on how to tweak it..:+}
Thanks for all the good info..
Snook

Im adding an rz67 to my current line up this week Id like to know how to precisely adjust the screen as well.

Guys,
Take off the WLF and gently remove the screen. You will see three screws that the screen was sitting on. They are adjustable. Clockwise lower the screw and counter clockwise lifts it up. You need a special screwdriver available from Mamiya Parts Center for $70. Alternatively you can buy a $3 one from Home Depot and have a natch machined in the center.
Mamiya use a special ground glass for adjustment however it never worked perfectly for me afterwards.
My approach is very simple. I put my Rz on a very steady studio stand and tether to computer.
I do it with 110mm lens as it works the best. I focus the lens at minimum focusing distance. On a little table a place piece of plywood with nailed diagonal line of 10 nails of different color, spaced about 1/4 inch apart. I focus in the center of the nails and make and image. I examine the picture and adjust the screen until the nail I focus on is the one in focus in the image.
Once I have it, it will translate to perfect focus on any distance with any Mamiya lens.
It takes me about 15 minutes to perfectly adjust a switch to a new screen.
Andre

Andre you are very generous. Thank you for sharing this.

I second this, great info.