Hi all,

As some of you successfully talked me out of purchasing a H10 back, i decided to rob the piggy bank and spend some more.

I predominantly shoot stock (lots of studio work - children, family, lifestyle) and occasionally architecture and landscape and already own Nikon DSLR´s (D3, D200) and 4x5 (Arca F-Line 4x5 and an Ebony SW45).

I feel that i want some more than the D3 can give me (yes, it IS fantastic at high ISO settings, but at lower ISO it´s not that much better than a D200, D80, ...). As i´m familiar with 4x5 i want digital files with a similar look and feel - a DSLR can´t do this, so i hope a MFDB will help out.

My budget is limited at about 10k-12k Euro / 15k-18k USD for a
MFDB, MF camera, 2 lenses for MF camera, Adapter for adapting MFDB to 4x5 and a wide angel lens for using it on the 4x5 to shoot architecture and a longer lens (~100-120mm) for table top, macro, ...

I have a chance to get a mint Phase P20 back (Hasselblad V) for about 5k Euros, eventually together with a 503 CW, Winder, CF50mm, CF120Macro for about 8k Euro all together.
Do you think the price is ok or would you get something else?

Then i´ll need an adapter for the P20 to 4x5 Arca or Ebony and at least one WA lens (i thougt about a 35mm).
I really would like to keep the option of shooting 4x5 sheet film or do you think i´ll have problems shooting the P20 on a 4x5 camera?
I saw the Kapture Group slinding backs, Arcas Rotaslide (both very expensive) and cheap China sliding backs on ebay as well. And i have no idea what to get...

What do you think?

Sorry for the long post - it´s a difficult decision.
Thanks a lot!
Rainer

Rainer,

At that budget you can get yourself a great condition P25.

You may want a full frame chip when going to large format. I have been using a P25 with a P3 and will begin in the next couple of weeks to use it with the Arca Monolith. It works wonderfully with it and not a glitch when shooting tethered or to card. You will need the OneShot cable from Kapture group. I use the Sinar sliding back, but will most likely be getting the Kapture group plate with my Arca.

I prefer the Arca to the Sinar.

On the mount front. Not sure if you are comfortable with Hassy V or you want to go another direction. I am sure you can pick up a Mamiya 645 AFD III with a P25 and sliding adapter with one shot cable for the budget you have.

You should call Chris Lawrey or any of the guys at Capture Integration. They will be able to source the whole package for you and have been wonderful with me. If you want to stick with the Hassy V, just make note to get two or three of the little sync cables for the lens to back connection of the Hassy V. You never know when you will need them and it is always good to have them in your bag with you.

The worst thing on set is for it not to work and not have one handy to replace.

$18k US you should be able to fly to the US, pick up a P25 with body and two lenses and the sliding adapter w/ OneShot cable and 35mm HR wide lens.

Best of luck with your selection.

R

I agree with RicAgu, go with a Mamiya mount p25.

you sure have lot of room to chose a system with your budget.

Rainer I am having an Hasselblad H1 & P45 , and a Canon 1Ds Mark III
for 7000 euros you get an 1Ds Mark III with 21 MP , with 3000 euros you get good lenses : a 24-70 , 70-200, 50 f/1.4 ... and so on

it is not the best moment to know what to buy in MF world

why?

Phase One has got a strange idea with that new body ... nobody knows if Hasselblad will be alife tomorrow ...

I can understand if you need 39 MP to go MF, but in the case of Rainer I think a Canon 1Ds is maybe a solution

I like very much my Hasselblad and P45 but the IQ difference between Canon 1Ds and H1 is not very big

You should also check out refurbished Sinar e22s.

Where can one find a refurbished Sinar e22s or e75?

I think myself it's now not a bad moment Sinar/leaf came with a strong system, they may not have a wide angle lens yet but it's coming, Phase/Mam have now a body if not two with the RZ that is also pretty strong no revolution but a good evolution, leaf shutter lens on their way, Blad decided to take a certain road and I think after the deception for curent H1/H2 owners things will settle down and the prices in used/refurb/demo makes some system way more affordable than what is used to and even sometime more than a Canon system. If Rainer doesn't need to much the AF he can get some nice piece of used Mam lens for "nothing".

Beside how in time the canon will hold is value compare to a back?

He also have a 4x5 system so the back will offer so much flexibility.

And if Rainer can make his purchase and keep is D3 I think he will be more than well equiped.

I don't even want/need to go on the quality road as it was already discuss so much with no firm conclusions.

He has the budget, the system, he sure should do it.

that was just my opinion

No I know and nothing wrong, I just try to share mine

Now im going to try and talk you out of a P20

Cropped to a rectangle the images ar smaller MP (but maybe not worse) than current DSLRs

The wide lens restriction is terrible

Thie cropped view in the camera is not nice

The P25, Aptus22 and Emotion22 - were the break in point where IMO MF digital became 'not a PITA'

The Aptus17 is also rectangle and cheap

I had a 16mp square for six months before trading to a 22mp - It would have been far cheaper to just get the 22mp as my first move into MF digital

The maths..

My 16mp (proback) depreciated $5000 in those six months and I also bought a (now redundant) Mamiya24Fisheye $1600 - so I wasted $6600 in six months wihch is about half of the depreciataion of my E22 over four years

If the piggybank is not deep enough borrow the difference - it will save you in the long run

Else go canon

SMM

(ps if you shot tethered or studio still lives only the story may be different becasue you can work around the small chip)

I was also looking into purchasing a MFDB solution but decided to get a 1Ds mark III and then see if I still needed the MFDB.

Well, the 1DS mk3 is just excellent. Color depth and accuracy is much better than all previous DSLRs I have used. It produces very consistent results quite easily. Resolution is enough for my needs whereas with the 5D I was at the limit at times. It has excellent dynamic range (highlight recovery). Naturally its has an outstanding feature set and so far has been reliable.

Oh man, thinking about what MFDB solution to get is a time consuming thing. There seem to be so many options and what i really try to avoid is, investing in a system that will kill my nerves and my wallet.

Getting some MFDB isn´t the problem. In the end it seems to be a question of how much you are able and willing to spend.
I´ve got following dealers offers so far for refurbished backs:
P20 - EUR 5000 (USD 7500)
P25 - EUR 10.500 (USD ~15000)
P21 - EUR 6500 (USD ~10000)
P30 - EUR 9000 (USD ~13500)

What do you think about these prices? Dealers told me these are Promo prices valid until the end of March.
But all those backs still seem to be cheaper in the US (thanks to our export industry killing hard Euro).
Some talked me out of getting a (affordable) P20. But will i find a P25 (or maybe an Aptus 22) for less than - let´s say 7000 EUR (USD 10500)?

What i´m quite sure about is using the back on a Hassi 503CW and i could get any of these backs with V mount.

As is said above i also will need some wideangle shift solution for arch/interior and a macro/tabletop solution for the studio. And that´s really hard.
BTW: Anything here i should now about using a P21 or P30 with a shifted wideangle? I rember to have heard something these aren´t good here ... Should i prefer the P25?

I already have an Arca F-Line 4x5 and an Ebony SW45.
Should i get a sliding back for one of these (and PLEASE - which one, they are really EXPENSIVE!)?
I could get an 35mm Digitar and some 100/120mm Macro Digitar and should be done...
Or will i need an Arca F-Metric 6x9 with Orbix for precise movements?

Another thing i came across is the SILVESTRI Flexcam. About EUR 2600,- incl. V mount sliding back (the PhaseOne Flexadapter ALONE costs even more!)
Seems to do anything i want as far as i understood. Add some 35mm Digitar, use the 120CF Makro from the Hasselblad (there is an adapter for it).
Sounds good. What do you think?

Hmm...

[Tough choices, same as mine when i had my P20 with 503CW, when deciding on a wide shift option. The 40CFEIF was very sharp but had awful fringing and was not wide enough with the P20 a lot of the time. Tried the Horseman SWD2 with 35 but it was out of alignment and soft which really put me off, shame really cos it was a lovely piece of kit to use. The Cambo wide was another option but in the end i went with a 1DS3 with 24 shift.

I don't know why the Blad with P20 gets a bad rap, in all honesty i think it's a lovely combination if you like to keep shooting square most of the time, if however you crop to A4 you would be better off with the P25 or P30. As you say the P30 may present problems with 'true' wideangle non retrofocus lenses and shift, although i never could get a definitive answer on that as some shooters and dealers have said the problem is not an issue, maybe it's very lens back combo dependent?

The 503CW and small shift body along with a P20 can make a relatively cheap and powerful combination, and in some respects i think i would have rather stayed with this than my 1DS3, it's just that for much of my work i shoot long exposures and the Phase back could get ugly very quickly, whereas the 1DS3 stays lovely. In daylight however it's a different story, and the Phase wins out on colour alone, but not necessarily on detail. As a travel shooter though, the Canon sure wins on ease of use, but that doesn't mean i take better pictures, just more easily.

Gary. 
[/quote]

If you havnt got the money for the proper kit you should just walk away, borrow or save up

The wrong gear just pours money away

Kodak proback - traded after 3 months losing $5k

Sinar back - still good to go after three years - no desire for more than 22mp

Mamiya AFD - traded hated the flash synch - lost a pile

H1 - no desire to change after three years

80-200 Sigma - bust

70-200 3.5/4.5 nikkor - crap AF - abandoned in box

80-200 2.8 nikon 7 years old - no desire to change

Metz 45s and 60s - six broken ones in a box

QFlashes - no desire to change - all functioning

24 2.8 - abandoned in a box

17-35 2.8 11 years old - still used

My list goes on

And the thing is when I bought all of the cheap stuff I knew I wanted the expensive stuff - but cashflow kills - now I LEASE

And the best thing is that my lease is nearly up and then I will own all my good kit - really I couldnt think of anything else to buy (D3Xs maybe)



You DONT want to blow your money on the WRONG KIT

IMO yo'ud be better in most situations with a 5d, D3 1Ds2 than a P20 - you probably have one of these already

(square formal portrature, table top and stitched slow paced architecture are the exceptions to that statement)

SMM

OT having clear out at the mo here is some wise buys that are going in the bin..

Good advices!

Thierry

Dear Rainer,
today I would not go for a P20 anymore.
I have a P20 and will sell it to a friend of mine.
It is a nice digital back, but in terms of resolution and usability, it is outperformed by a Nikon D3 or Canon 1Ds MKIII.
I also noticed that having IN FOCUS images with a P20 and 503CW is a nightmare.
You never know what you're gonna get.
I tested the sinar emotion75 and Leaf 75, that's the way to go today, in combination with autofocus camera's like Hy6, the top !
Do not buy H3DII, it is a strange concept, to complex !

so for the money, I would say go for a Nikon D3, you won't regret it !

I´ve already got the Nikon D3 and i´m impressed with its performance at high ISO, but i don´t see that much improvement at low ISO settings above a D200 or also D300.

Maybe i really should wait until i can afford a better back like P45/Leaf75/emotion75...

You know, i still have an Arca 4x5 to get the ultimate in image quality if needed, but i´d really like to get rid of sheet film/processing/scanning costs.

What do you think about getting the new Nikkor PC-E 24 for the D3 (for architecture) and the PC 85mm (for tabletop)?
I know the 85 - it´s great, but i haven´t heard anything about the 24 PC in use with the D3 for arch.

I´ve collected some offers for backs.
What do you think about these - compared to the Phase prices mentioned above:

Leaf Aptus 17 refurb - 7000 EUR
Leaf Aptus 65 new - 9500 EUR

The Aptus 17 looks tempting. And the APtus 65 looks cheap to me ...?
What do you say?

You can get a P25 for the same price as that Aptus 17. I wouldn't go for less than 22Mp if I was you. And if you want to use it for tilt/shift on a large format camera the P25 is ideal since it doesn't have a microlenses.

As far as I know, none of the Leaf Aptus digital backs have microlenses, something that is specifically pointed out in their datasheets.

The A65 can be used with movements. It does not have microlenses nor does the A17. The A65 is a cropped sensor as is the A17.

If you like the square format and shoot mostly in studio or with tripod then why not get the P20. The files are really great from this back at ISO 50 and up through 200. I just posted some images to the recent work thread taken with the p20. Should be same file quality as the p25 only just a square crop.

Leaf aptus 65 is very good, nice price too
where do you buy ?

For the 2500euros price difference this is a no-brainer. Take the A65!

As someone with a D3 and daily access to Hasselblad SWC and a P20 back, I can tell you I have not used the P20 in months, the added MP does not make up for the lower noise of the D3. The P 20 is frankly, IMHO, a little dated and I would recommend you save up for a newer back, but I question the value of sub 20 mb medium format backs in this new age of DSLR's

Thanks for all your replies so far!

I´ve made a decision on the back and will get a used but obviously excellent working Phase P25 for a quite reasonable price - at least i think it is (~7k Euro).
Compared to the dealers offers i got with >10k Euros that seems to be ok.

I´ll also get a 503CW and most likely a CF 50 and a CF 120 Makro to start.
I still want to adapt the back on some sort of view camera with a 35mm digital lens and a 100 or 120mm macro lens. Options:

My Arca 4x5 with a sliding back (which one?)
My Ebony SW45 with a sliding back (again- which one?)
A Silvestri Flexicam with integrated sliding back (better for wideangle and shift than a 4x5?)
or a (used) Linhof 679cc with slinding back (i´ve got an offer for this recently)

What do you think?

Regards, Rainer

hi rainer,

congrats on your decision. This is exactly what forums do to a guy looking for an h10.....make him shell out for a p25. I was in ur exact same shoes wanting to test MFD with a humble back just to use my beloved RB67SD. Settled for an H20 after almost buying an h25. Its the best of both worlds price/performance. Think about it, you'll save good money with an h20/25 with same quality of p backs, and looks much cooler on analog cameras

sid.

Good choice Rainer, and the price is VERY good. The P25 is a great and versatile back, and the files are incredibly crisp. You'll be thankful too you got a P-back instead of an H-back. Being forced to always carry around and shoot to a laptop is just crazy.