Sorry guys not sure if there is Lighting forum here that I know of.
Just had a simple question, I think.
I was shooting for the last do days in stduio against a paper white back ground and the client wanted me to have the Models sillouhetted shadow strong against the back ground.. So I put her pretty close to the background (almost touching the paper) and I shot a Bwoens 1000 watt mono block from about 7 meters away with the main reflector cap on...
got nice crisp contrasty images but the shadow although sharp and pretty dark was not "dark" enough to the references they showed me...?
Baffled me a little bit and was wondering if there are any special techniques to get the shadows harder and darker??? I will try and post my results to see if any of you have any ideas for the next time..:+}
I think the references they showd me were probably done with an HMI.
Thanks
Snook

Try putting the model a bit further from the background. If the model is too close, light reflecting back and forth between the BG and subject can fill the shadows a bit. Also try using a curve adjustment to push the dark tones down some.

I would not try to loose shadows gradations in the captured files, but achieve that effect is post production. In photoshop, create "selective Color" adjustment layer. Choose "blacks", and play with "black" slider, you will get the effect you are looking for. In addition do the same for whites to get them clean, if you wish.

No diffusion on the light
Light source far from model
High power on flash and low ambient lighting
Tweak in post

The beautiful shadows you see in high end prints are an effect of hours of post production. There is no miracles nor secret modifiers.
I personally prefer the light from large fresnel for strong define shadows.
Http://AndreNapier.com

Thank you all.. That is what I thought and tried to explain to my client but you know how they are some times and they put a doubt in my head..
I have to say you guys are really cool in here and more than helpful.
I really do appreciate it.
I had the with a standard reflector and really far back.. it was like 7-8 meters and the 1000 watt pack was giving like 125 @ F8 more or less. the light looked great.. really snappy and contrasty like I wanted. the shadows were well defined and darkish but not really black like a reference they showed me that was obviously worked on in post because the shadows were really black.
THANKS for posting how to tweak it a little, that is more than I could have asked for and it will help a lot...:+}
Thank you again
AS soon as I get some jpegs when I go back to the studio I will post one to show you guys what I was talking about in order to get your opinion of-course.
Snook


PS...
Do I check absolute or relative on the blacks and whites?
And you guys know how to bump up the white background with affecting anything esle to brighten and whiten a little?
I usually get my whites pretty white but sometimes need to just boost them a little?
Any other tips or is it the same as above..
Thank you

Regardless of the modifier, your probably going to have to work the image in post.

Don't let a simple thing like shadow density destroy what you are doing to the subject.

Click to view attachment

both of these images were shot with frensels, the one on the left a profoto flash, the one the right an arri 2k tungsten and though both frensels, both have very different properties, though you can get close to the same effect with grids.

Also retouching yourself is fine if you have the skills and the time, but having a good retoucher on speed dial is probably the most cost effective way to work. It's good if you have the skills to understand how to direct the retoucher, but spending hours cutting masks is probably not the most time effective proposition.

Don't think that retouching and post work (regardless of what you want to call it), is just the way we work and will always continue, at least images that are for commerce. Unfortunately a lot of retouching is too heavy handed, or just misplaced.

You can't save a bad image in retouching, but you can inhance it.

Regardless, leaning how differnet modifiers work is important, but what works for one subject probably will not work for the next. It's not the broad strokes, it's the small details.

JR

P.S. Kindly tell your client to stop wagging around other people's photographs for reference. It not only stops the way you work, but it's just not cool.

Find a zoom spot projector or a Fresnel spot. For a quick and dirty solution, try this:

Replace the frosted flash glass cover with a clear glass cover. Wrap a cone of Cinefoil around the flash-tube and cover. You want to approximate a point-light source. The clear glass cover is usually about 500K bluer in colour temperature so you may want to adjust your WB.

See if it works well enough for your client.

Sweet, Nice ideas.. I like the Cine-foil and might try that next time. Actually have a huge roll I bought from B&H not too long ago and have never used it..:+}
I have been wanting to get a HMI or something similar but where I live they are WAY expensive and shipping from New York would be pretty spendy also as I would have to pay Import taxes etc.. And they are heavy so shipping would be a lot for sure.
Going to try and see if I can rent from one of the movie companies here.
Thanks for all the input very cool of you guys..
Hey Russel thanks to you also.. I appreciate it.
Snook

A trick to get the white snappier without spending hours and without bleaching your subject is this;

Make a levels adjustment layer. Drag the white point slider down (240-220) until satisfactory.

Select the blue channel (or the channel with most contrast), copy the blue channel (blue with people is mostly the most contrasty one, unless they are completely dressed in blue). Make a levels adjustment where you drag the black slider up (90 or so).

Make a selection of the copied and darkened blue channel (load selection), go back to your levels adjustment layer and fill the selection with black.

You have now made fairly quickly mask on top of your subject so the subject is not affected by the levels adjustment layer where you have dragged the white point down. If necessary back down the levels adjustment layer somewhat.

30 sec's work, if you get good at it you can make it very accurate.

James, which profoto fresnel was used for the first one? profoto makes 2 different kinds and one is around $1400 and the acute head loads into the back. Ive been knocking around the idea of buying one, but id like your opinion on it. Im looking to achieve the shadow definition as seen in your second photo.

Thanks a lot DustBak..:+}
Will try that
Sn ook

I cannot pretend to answer for James. However, the first photo looks like what comes out of a Zoom Spot with an iris. The second looks like a Fresnel Spot.

Agreed,
I own a Profoto fresnel and an Arri 2k fresnel and neither produce the light as seen in the first shot. The first image looks, as Sean said, like a Profoto Spot.

Another quick + dirty method if using ACR/LR is to simply slide the Black slider to the right.
It's not in Phocus and I cannot remember if it's there in Aperture, as my trial ran out.

The key to get really good looking pitch dark sharp shadows is to use black velvet curtains around your model (also on the floor and ceiling) and a spot with bare bulb. (If you use a fresnel spot open the front. Remove reflectors from your flash unit.) Just good old cinema technique, like you could see in movies with Marlene Diettrich. There they used arch lights with an open front. Sharper than the sun. The black velvet is to block out any unwanted fill reflection muddling up your shadows.

I think bare bulb ( removing reflector ) and putting some black cloth behind it
if you have white walls around it would make the shadow more distinct .
Also
http://www.profoto.com/en/products/lightsh...ectors/hardbox/
is not so expensive and looks like adaptation of fresnel other were talking about ...

Thanks Janna..
I have never seen that.. I think it is a new item for profoto..
Has anybody here ever used one?
Thanks
Snook

I haven't used that modifer, though do use the older profoto Frensel quite a bit.

The Frensel isn't quite as directional as an Arri 2k, though profoto now has what looks like an arri 2k with a strobe head mounted inside.

I do like the idea of this modifer though and will try it soon.

One thing to keep in mind when shooting for dark, dark shadows is what camera, file, processing you are using, as some files just don't do well with black or very dark shadows, as chroma noise comes in (though can be desaturated), or with the Canon's (at least the mk 2) the noise breaks into clumps rather than a constant pattern. I find the clumps the hardest to correct.

Early on with the P30 and p30+ I was told to expose darker, not the standard digital thought of to the right and I've seen where that works best. Now how that compares to other digital backs I don't remember, though all of the DB companies are changing and improving thier software so now they might be all the same, or not, once again, you have to test to know for sure.

Regardless of camera or digital, or film, one think I would caution about is too much negative fill, just to produce shadows. If you go too deep, or the falloff is too quick you will get banding, usually on people (a red or pink banding) in the transitional areas and once again, some cameras do this more than others and some lenses bite harder and the fall off is quicker, so you have to test.

I find if I leave a little bit of bottom room and not go for the hard look right out of the first capture, it's easier in post to just define the shadows and add them as a layer that can be adjusted.



Not that you don't have to be very close to your look out of the camera, not just 100% exact.

I should once again add how processing software is changing this. The image above was processed in 3.76 and also earlier versions of lightroom and I had a hell of a time getting skin color in lightroom as it went magenta to orange and was not consistent, but in 3.76 it was difficult to adjust the ratios and the skin would go from color to grey.

Now in the newer versions of lightroom it is a little easier and in C1 V4 the controls are much more exact and the skin color casting is gone, so software improves our ability to use all of these radical lighting schemes we previously did with film.



JR

Has anybody gotten their Profoto HARDBOX??
Please let us know!!
Thanks
Snook

Today I rented the Hardbox, tomorrow I'll buy one for the remainder of the shoot.

Nice light, though it takes a lot of watts if your workinng full length.

We tried Frensel, grids, etc. but the box had the best shadows.

JR

Eight years back, I started learning photography with two vivitar flashes with umbrella as diffusers and lot of tupperware modifiers. Recently stumbled upon strobist and the their evergrowing cult on flickr and got inspired to revisit the old days. The difference is, strobes are more powerful now and we have radio syncs. The things u can do with stroboscopic light is amazing. The built in zoom have a spread from 14mm to 105mm.
To get back to the topic, the bare strobe gives the dark deined shadows...definitely better than bare studio flash, fresnel n grids. Haven't tried the hard box though. I am addicted to these strobes now and put them in the mix with hmi n studio flash .

Sweet
James I take it as a very positive result if you ordered it right away??
Please let me know after some more use.... and re: any kind of example would be even greater..:+}
Thanks
Once again where I live there are no options to try anything out and I go based on reviews only on many things, so I really appreciate the info once again..:+}
Thanks again

Snook

Also it actually looks like plastic... is it? does the material look good... build

The hardbox works, but it is kind of strange looking. Like a Frensel witout the lens, actually you could probably make one out of cinefoil, but it wouldn't last.

It is basically a bare head stuck in the bottom of a tube shaped box, no lenses, though I believe you can add grids.

The downside is the modeling light is weak. Too week to really use for any guide or even to focus.

We run a small Frensel next to it for focus which is somewhat approx. just like most modeling lights.

The box is made out of some kind of composite, though I guess it's as sturday as anything else.

If it worries you, then try the old Profoto Frensel if you can find one. It was huge and heavy but probably would last a century or so.

The new profoto frensel looks like they just took an Arri turngsten, painted it black and mounted a flash tube inside.

JR