Hi,

Is there a lucky fellow who had the privilege to try out the new ColorMunki from X-Rite ? It just seem to good to be true.

Here is a video showing it in action:

http://www.photo-i.co.uk/Colour%20Manageme...unki/munki.html

Thank you for sharing!

Andrew Rodney (aka digitaldog) has one for testing. You might read the other discussions about ColorMunki (here).

Thank you for the reference.

Another review here:

http://www.photographyblog.com/reviews_colormunki_photo.php

Don't forget that like any other comments you read, they are still not using finalised software (no matter what they say ;-). I too have been involved in testing for the last year or so and am waiting for finalised software until I'd want to go into any detail.

I'd add my own thoughts from testing Initial review

Definitely works well, but some key features are still problematic in the current s/w release ;-)

I was able to download the final software, but alas, the beta hardware will not run (a big mistake on X-Rite's part IMHO) so I can't comment on the final.

The product is shipping, the software is said to be golden. Considering that non of the beta sites I know of got a copy or could use it for testing, it will be real interesting to see how users find the product in terms of software. I have no issues with the hardware; its quite good. The software? Time will tell.

I've got both beta hardware (which as you say won't run) and a shipping version of the hardware (which I've been using for all the recent beta testing). Although the software maybe being made more widely available, it most definitely isn't ready for 'prime time' yet - there are still issues that are being sorted out. Since this relates to aspects of using the hardware, I'm waiting for the next release before doing any more detailed evaluation. Mail me directly if you want since we are now out of the NDA period :-)

First, as far as I'm concerned, my NDA is up with respect to beta which is over. I've heard nothing about new builds (in fact I only knew about the released version from another post). Since I can't use the newer software, I'm pretty much done until I hear from X-Rite about getting a real unit. They are in a bit of a state of chaos now so I'm just going to go back to real work <g>.

I'm not surprised that you're finding issues with the final software product. I could say that the beta process created by X-Rite was one of the most dysfunctional processes I've witnessed in a very long time or that they could learn a lot about software development from the company they purchased (GMB) but that would be only be an expression of tough love, which hasn't worked well with the company in the past.

As I said, I'm real impressed with the hardware, but that was something developed a very long time ago in a country far far away from the US. The software is another issue all together. I'll await the comments from the customer base as it trickles in.

Boy, no kidding! I'm sure it's fine to talk about said consumer product but NDAs aren't up yet for unannounced technologies.

That's why I was referring to the ColorMunki ;-)

My NDA re. ColorMunki is up too, obviously.

If it helps, they have already fired the guy who saw through the development of this product, over in Switzerland - his name is Michael Lanke, and I think he did a really nice job on the hardware and didn't deserve this.

On the other hand, they are in such extreme debt from all those M&A's that I guess desesperation breeds layoffs.

Edmund

they are still not using finalised software for it and it is hard to use in my opinion.

Yes I'd agree about the software, but what aspects do you find hard to use?

Is this based on actually using a CM or just watching the videos?

I was initially quite sceptical of the sliding the device across the paper approach, but after a few goes it really is easy. I've been making some targets for using the CM for QTR linearisation and as long as you have decent size patches it works well (at the moment I'm having to fiddle the data formats a bit, but the measurements are fine)

The way of hanging the CM over your screen with the sand filled strap is a little awkward, but it seems to work fine.

First, the software is finalized (the product is shipping, the software has to be downloaded).

I can't comment on how much its changed since the last beta, as I can't even use the stinkin product now with the beta hardware. Don't get me started.

Its not "hard to use", its very poorly designed for the market X-Rite was (is) going after. Do designers and similar users really need to hear about gamma? Come on, its 2008. X-Rite had an opportunity to make this a far easier process, in terms of what they ask in the UI, the instructions provided etc. Instead, they pretty much put a more modern UI on EyeOne Match. They failed IMHO to produce a more modern color management package that reduces to a bare minimum all the color geek stuff this market shouldn't have to even think about.

Hardware wise, GretagMacbeth has a very nice product they designed. Software, done in the US, kind of messy. Its like Audi providing a great car to Ford, then having them rip out the nice interior and making it look like a 1971 Pinto! OK, its not that bad, but the software wasn't at all designed as well as the hardware.

My review on PhotographyBLOG was based on what I was told was the shipping version of software ( I had to download it). The software works fine with the 2nd CM they sent to me (had problems with printer profiling on the first one), although the part number still has -DEV. Not sure if regular production units have this -DEV in the part number or not - it could be Development, it could be Device, who knows?

That said, I agree with the others - the software is funky but it does a good job, especially when you consider the price and the target audience. Will I be throwing out my i1 Photo and ProfileMaker? Nope.

My purchased CM also has the -DEV part number. I had some initial system (OS 10.5.2, Intel Mac) problems that I think may have been caused by the appset module or monitor calibration reminder so I just disabled both and currently things are back to normal. Profiling works just fine for me (both RGB for Epson driver and also CMYK for the ColorBurst X-Photo RIP). I've also worked out some targets and export file conversions for QTR linearization and Create-icc measurement with the ColorPicker module. In general I'm very pleased with the Munki performance although as others here have pointed out the software still needs some work. The output quality is more than adequate for both my color and B&W profiling needs so my i1 (very old model) and x-rite Pulse are both going on the block. I've tried some profile optimization, specifically for toned monochrome printing and I think this part needs some more work. The "optimized" profiles do seem to yield marginally better prints but I'd like to know more about what this procedure is actually doing under the hood. Monitor calibration worked perfectly.

Could one describe the two stage target/reading as iterative? I get the impression it is more like sculpturing where a rough shape based on 50 readings creates new coördinates for a better fitting next shape. Probably keeping the initial readings as well. Or is the second set of patches very similar to the first set ? Must be a smart system if it rivals much larger target systems.

The low number and large patches to start with + another set of similar patches afterwards should diminish the risks that could happen with iterative readings of larger targets with smaller patches. In that case there's probably more fluctuation in the measurements than the precision planned with iterative readings.


Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers

Absolutely!

Andrew,

If it is just the iterative method that is bringing this quality, would a similar approach with few patches and two targets/readings not be used a long time ago ? Iterative has been discussed enough and some profile creators have it aboard, it is hard to believe nobody ever tried that with smaller targets in the past.

Nothing special like shifted lamp spectrum or different profile builders for the two stages ?

Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

The iterative method isn't a new idea. Its been used in the past. What's somewhat unique is the quality of the profiles with so few patches, something others (including GretagMacbeth) have tried in the past with little success.

The iterative technique is interesting in that you supply images to analyse and it uses colours in that image to decide upon what new patches to test.

I'm not able to test this further at the moment (CM users might want to check for updated s/w this weekend ;-) but when I first tried it on earlier Beta s/w I was surprised to see the iterative sheets look rather similar with different images supplied.

I tried a B/W image to see if it would be smart enough to know I wanted a profile with good neutrals and there were lots of colour patches, not what I might have expected for fine tuning neutrality (but not knowing what it's up to, I wasn't sure what to expect ;-)

There is no change to the behaviour of the measuring device as far as I can tell, when looking at 'iterative' patch sets. The software seems to behave just the same way when building profiles.

I'm curious to find out more, but for the time being I'm a bit stuck with the current s/w

Keith Cooper

PS Andrew ... did you ask X-Rite for a new CM? I did and they just shipped one to me for continuing testing :-)

Not yet. I wanted to give them breathing room after firing 100 employees week before last. I'm really not in a hurry.

Just a note to Mac users about a conflict between ColorMunki and CS3. The Xrite ColorMunki installer puts a ProfileSetterCS3.plugin file in the Applications>CS3>Plugins folder. If this file is present then one cannot open CS3 image files from the finder either by dbl clicking or drag/drop. Removing the plugin restores normal file handling with CS3. This is using an Intel Mac, OS 10.5.2. Nasty little bug.

It's similar on 10.4.11 on a PPC Mac - This is a known issue and I'm told a fix is due...

The entire Profilesetting concept was about the dumbest thing X-Rite did. Mucking around with someone else's preferences is a no-no. I didn't suspect they would get pinged this quickly after release. Keep em coming, I have a list of "I told you so's" for X-Rite.

That's as maybe, but it was actually a bug we were mentioning, not a comment on functionality ;-)

Whilst I do indeed have some comments on choices of functionality, I'm waiting until I can test the software as it's meant to be.

If anyone has any detailed questions, please feel free mail/PM me directly... I'm happy to discuss experiences off-list

Long ago I worked as a software developer, so I can sympathise with people working to fix issues (oh and I got fired from the job too :-)

Its a bug in dumb functionality and illustrates how fragile it is (now), let alone anytime Adobe updates Photoshop.

Well it was great while it was working, but my Munki just died. Plugged it back in after the resolving the plugin fiasco and now it seems to have no power (no light) and is not seen by the software. Apple system profiler does see the Munki on the USB port so I'm not sure what is going on now. Guess I'll just pack it up and send it back to Xrite.

This is spooky! Exactly the same thing happened today when I tried to use my iSis. No power, DOA.

Any sunspot activity today?

Not really.

http://spaceweather.com/

Not even full moon!

So, a few days ago I bought a Canon IPF 5100, and while so far, the profiles I'm using seem fine. I was thinking about this product. My current unit is a Monaco Optix, which I used for just my monitor profiling, and I'd like to move up, and do some printer profiling as well. When I had my lab, I had much more complex equipment, but now I'm retired, I don't want to spend another several thousand.

It seems as though this is an unfinished product, though it's been out for sale supposedly.

What would you guys recommend in the $500 to $1,000 price range? (approx, the numbers aren't fixed)

I'm not concerned about software complexity, just accuracy for the purpose of monitors and printers. Scanners would be nice, but not required.

Thanks.

Based on what you say, seems ColorMunki would still be an ideal product for you.

Whilst there are still a few issues with the software with the ColorMunki, I'd still suggest it might fit your needs, since I know that the bugs are being worked on. The CD that comes with the ColorMunki has a downloader that will pull down the latest version of the s/w and you can easily check for new versions online.

The other alternative at that level is really the SpyderPrint. It doesn't have the 'simplified' interface of the ColorMunki, but that's a plus point (or not) depending on your POV ;-)

I know some complain about its ease of use but when testing it out, I didn't notice any real problems. If you regularly build profiles like I do, then the automated patch readers I've got make the job a lot easier, but then again it's part of my job ;-) It really does not take that much manual dexterity to use the SpyderPrint and I did wonder about the frailty of some people I've heard whinge about it :-) :-)

The SpyderPrint software was recently updated even for owners of the older PrintFIX Pro (same measuring device). Datacolor are still developing the software, so I wouldn't be surprised to see additional functionality added over time.

So you guys see no advantage in the i1Photo or Design series?

In this business we usually trust an instrument after it's been around for about one year, and samples have been dropped, exposed to the attentions of cats, dogs, small children and early adopters. During that time we run comparisons, and wait for our colleagues to run comparisons. I see no reason to change this advocacy just because this product is cheaper than the ones we usually deal with.

I would recommend that anyone with a decent budget stay with the true and tested albeit more expensive EyeOne Pro for the time being. Let the pro testers like Andrew and Keith be the kids with the new and shiny toys. Their superior intellect, tireless patience and selfless commitment to the progress of color-management warrants that they be allowed their place in the front lines.

Edmund

PS. I guess the EyeOne is the better instrument any way - at least that's what the guys who make them told me

Not the guys I know who make em. CM is based on newer technology found in the iSis.

If someone has the budget for the EyeOne Pro, fine. Its supported far more in other applications. But if you need something today in the CM price range, I see no reason not to go there. I have a beta hardware product and its working fine (the software is another story, although a non beta is supposed to be on its way). The product works and works well (beyond software design decisions I don't think were spot on). Its got a warranty. It works.

In this instance I was very much thinking of the budget... ;-)

If you buy an i1 LT you only get the small patch target and monitor calibration. If you want more then the modules all start to rack up the cost. The LT is really a version to get if you want to use other software with your i1 device.
i1 LT review (links to all the other versions too)

Over time I've looked at all the different i1 options and while you get a pretty solid product, the price point of the ColorMunki does make you wonder how it fits alongside the i1 line-up. Also, the iterative profile s/w in the CM suggests that the GMB i1 Match s/w might be due for an update before too long.

And yes Ed, it is always nice to get shiny new toys to play with :-)

Indeed, the ColorMunki is nice hardware, made by a very good company. And yes, I'll still recommend that anyone who can afford it go for EyeOne, for at least the next 6 months until the software is fully stable. In 6 months I'll recommend ColorMunki warmly to all my friends. In the mean time EyeOne is a known quantity. I guess I'm old now and conservative.

I do hope that i1 Match is brought up to date to do at least what the ColorMunki does ...

Welcome to the club, Keith

Edmund

Fortunately, I didn't have small animals, or children wandering around (except when someone had to bring their kid in for a day) my lab

I often did testing for manufacturers, so I'm used to beta hardware and software. Doesn't mean I want to use it at home all the time.

I still have my Fuji Pictography with the X-Rite AutoScan Spectrophotometer, but that's of little use here, sadly.

I haven't used the EyeOne.

I still have my old, non working with OS X Colortron.

>>Indeed, the ColorMunki is nice hardware, made by a very good company. And yes, I'll still recommend that anyone who can afford it go for EyeOne, for at least the next 6 months until the software is fully stable. In 6 months I'll recommend ColorMunki warmly to all my friends. In the mean time EyeOne is a known quantity. I guess I'm old now and conservative.<<

I just got the ColorMunki Design and I'm very disappointed with the function and instalation so far. The software is really not ready for prime time. The package included instructions for an online link for registration that's simply wrong (registration and download of accessory software is done via the software setup screen).

I uninstalled my i1Match software before installing the Colormunki application. I'm not sure the unistaller worked since the Colormunki tray application seems balky and it may be conflicting with the old i1 profile installer and reminder. I can't see those set to load, but I know the profile reminder application still lives on the drive because it ran with errors after I did a system restore.

The display profiler is stuck in a loop of light gray to dark gray. Initially the profiling ran through color samples, but that calibration failed partway through the measurements and left me with a dark, dim display. I'm running ATI FireGL cards with dual LUTs and my dual NEC2190UXi displays may well support hardware profiling. The Colormunki may be puking over specific hardware, but it will be a major pain figuring this out. The X-Rite website has been recently reworked and it has a flash interface with a poor ratio of pretty site to information content ratio. There is no phone contact information for product support and I'm sure I'll need some one-on-one to get this mess working.

I did the early adopter on Colormunki based on my trust of X-Rite. I made a poor decision. I've been through several generations of Monaco and Gretag-Macbeth and X-rite calibration tools and none gave me this kind of complete failure out of the box. The hardware isn't intuitive. You need to be careful not to press the button in the center of the rotating sensor when you're directed to move the sensor to the calibration position or one of the other position. The button does an enter-key command and pressing that at the wrong time confuses the application (not to mention the user). The software has you align the sensor over a target area, but then the entire display area is used for color sample display. At least this software drops the annoying and slow i1 gimmick of locating the sensor prior to running the color samples.

I'm old and conservative too, and my trust of X-Rite to not endanger my productivity is clearly misplaced. I'm going to try uninstalling and reinstalling Colormunki before I plan my attack on X-rite support. It's telling that X-rite has no user forum on their site. I also recommend that anyone looking at Colormunki wait for functional software.

Hmm!

I think I'll wait a bit longer. So far, the canned profiles seem to be working out ok, even with Galerie and Harman.

You could also get some custom profiles made. If it's "only" a few papers it's probably a lot easier to let someone else do the profile making stuff.

I returned the ColorMunki as a defective unit and have a replacement coming tomorrow. I wanted to remove all of the old CM software before installing the new, but there apparently is no software un-installer. There is a broken link to an un-installer here: http://www.xritephoto.com/index.cfm?MenuIt...nuGroup=Support
but when I asked CM support they didn't know anything about it and just told me to trash the CM application folder, but how do I get rid of all the orphaned system files?

There was a Mac uninstaller - I've used it when testing (but that was several releases ago and I wouldn't want to try it now) You should be able to just re-install the software though?

Note that you can only access the preferences through the colorpicker application (??). The preferences are greyed out when you launch the ColorMunki Photo software. You can turn off launch at startup in the prefs. As to where all the CM bits actually live, I've found quite a few in prefs and some other areas, but I wouldn't want to bet I've caught them all :-)

Thanks Keith. Too bad the programmers didn't create an un-installer for the end user - I hate digging through library files to weed out the leftovers. At the very least they should have left an install log text file listing the items installed and the locations (SOP, right?) Not very professional. The reason I want to clear this all out is that there is a very nasty bug in there that can only be eliminated by first clearing out all the bits of the previous installation, before reinstalling - at least that is what support passed on to me (this was relative to version 1.0 vs 1.0.1). The software people knew what bits to get rid of, but they neglected to tell anyone else. Duh!

I really don't like others doing my work for me. Besides, every time I want to try a new paper, I'd have to pay someone to do a profile. no thanks. I like to try out lots of papers. I just bought a box of lford Galerie smooth Fine Art Paper (100% rag). Another profile. Right now, I'm testing settings, and modding the color output in the driver. Works, but it's a pain. Ilford doesn't support the new Canon IPF x100's, just the older 5000. I sent them a nasty note, after they wrote what I thought was an insult. It was a canned response. No name attached.

Harmon doesn't support the printers either.

No, I've got to be able to do it here, in a reliable way. I'm sure most people here agree that's the way to do it.

At this point, EyeOne and the new Spyder kit are reliable tested solutions for print profiling, and ColorMunki will probably be very good in about 6 months. I would recommend the EyeOne, it'll also measure all your screens for you, and is supported by every existing piece of software.

Edmund

Whilst you might recommend it, I'd point out the sizeable price difference between an i1 version with decent patch count targets and the SpyderPrint.

In the UK
SpyderPrint ~ £260 +VAT
i1 Photo ~ £850 +VAT

Bit like me saying I prefer my Canon 1Ds3 to a 5D and neglecting to mention the slight difference in price :-)

I recently did a Colour Management workshop for a large group of mostly amateur photographers, and while quite a few had (and liked) the PrintFIX PRO/SpyderPrint not one had ever considered an i1 photo ... that's the market that the ColorMunki is aimed at ;-)