Cannot believe these images at the Leaf Afi or Sinar Hy6 operation manual are for a $3xxxx value professional medium-format camera.

Look at the manuals for the same price Audi. Sinar or Leaf should feel shamed.

Just took some pictures for my Afi:

Please let me make my point clear.

Japanese camera manufacturers almost do not use real photo as diagrams in their camera manuals, however since Sinar and Leaf use real photos, please use some real profesional quality photos.

That is a quality standard in my mind for such a camera at $3xxxx value. The camera is really great, a real break-through design. So its maual should be matched.

Thanks,

Xinchenc,

I checked out the Sinar Hy6 manual and thought the pictures are pretty clear and informative for something that I would call a tool. This is not a 1000 pieces a month luxury product, like an expensive car. Why do you post every single little whine that you have about this camera out here on the web before trying to get it solved the proper way? Why don't you inform yourself better before making public complaints? (This remark is also fuelled by several of your other posts.) You buy a gray market import lens and wonder why you have difficulty having it serviced (even while the factory offers to have it serviced for free). You buy a cable release that is not made for your camera and complain that it doesn't fit. You complain about the "horrible screen" of the Leaf. Why? Nobody told you to buy it if you don't like it. Then you complained with a manufacturer (Schneider) who wasn't even responsible for the problem you encountered with a lens (which was made by Rollei using Schneider glass parts). And you tried to discuss a delivery with a supplier online. What's next for us to be made part of?

EPd

Which AFi manual are you referring to?

This image is taken from the page describing the insertion of the battery into the grip:



You can send an email directly to leafsupport@creo.com with any comments about the product or if there's any information missing that cannot be provided by your dealer.
We will always do our best to provide the best possible quality of service.

Yair

It is not a public complaint. Just want to share my using experince with other Leaf AFi users.

Let me take that 90mm lens as example, I have never complained about Rollei (please read my post contest) in the case of that 90mm lens, in fact they are very helphful. They are willing to fix that bug FREE even if that lens is bought from Gray market or is out of warranty.

When I report that 90mm lens bug to my lens seller, they sent my lens form Shanghai to Beijing where they has a Rolleiflex Hy6. After testing, they told me ALL manual PQS lens could NOT reach 1/1000 second on Hy6, but all AF PQS lens could. That is not true I know.

My post corrects that rumor. The lens bug is easy to fix and will not influence your using of Leaf Afi7 or Sinar Hy6. I can tell you even Local Leaf dealer or Sinar dealer do not know early-made 90mm lens has such a bug. Sinar China dealer think it can be fixed by Hy6 camera body firmware upgrade (his 90mm is recently-made so does not have such a bug).

So if any user read my post for that lens, they can solve quickly and almost FREE, just a little shipping cost.

Am I wrong, or you will buy a $3xxxx value camera without any researching?

If my post bothers you or others or Sinar or Leaf, I will NOT post my using experience again on this forum.

Thanks,

Hi Xin,

I don't think anyone is suggesting that you stop posting here, but you seem to be complaining about things before you have researched them properly or asked for advice from your dealer. Maybe it is a cultural difference but it can seem impolite to some people to make every little problem public when it is not necessary.

If something is not in the manual and your dealer can't help then this is the place to come and ask. Oh, and there is a difference between asking and complaining

In English we say "it is easier to catch flies with honey than with vinegar"

Cheers, Graham

The only compliant from me on this fourm is the photo quality on the manual.

I can firmly say I know more on this camera than my local dealer. Now I am unwilling to say any more on using my Leaf Afi.

Thanks,

Xinchenc,

Let me quote you:

"Leaf should make a 640 x 480 touch screen. Look at Nikon D300 or D3, their 3" screen are so fine. Cannot believe a $36000 Leaf Afi7 uses such a horrible screen"

"The fixing is FREE! But my Rollei seller in Shanghai declined such bug. They sell GRAY Market lens which comes from Japan."

"How slow Rollei sells such lens."

"Can Leaf settle my 90mm PQS lens problem FREE?"

"I expected AFi a multi-spot AF camera, even had a face-recognizing system."

"Another problem is in that there is no lens & shooting information in the picture file with any lens, even with those new AFD ones."

"How can leaf make a 90 degree eye level finder?"

"both lens are NOT available in Shanghai China. Very strange."

"Have you started to ship Leaf Afi 7 to China? I have been waiting 3 weeks."

"Your company should make your payment policy very clear on your web site. The thing I cannot understand is you have never informed me, at least by email, about that cancellation. You even do not inform me about the order confirmation by emails. The only email I received from you in history is my account registeration confirm email."

"What is wrong with your company? I ordered a Leaf AFi 90° Prism Finder and paid by Paypal, but you refunded all my payment with our any explaination."

"If you do not want to sell, please do not make ad for Leaf AFi here!"

"Sinar dealer in China is not professional, but just sales persons."

"I tried a Leaf Afi 6 in Shanghai. Feel the shake is still very big. And the body producing quality cannot compare with the Contax 645's."

So, if you want to contribute to this community, stop complaining and tell us all about your (hopefully well digested) experiences with your camera and back. Graham said it very well, I think. Nobody wants you to stop posting.

EPd

But to go back the point, the picture really sucks. Is the kind of pictures I take to sell things on eBay and such. I don't expect that on a manual.

To be honest, I've got used to manuals on niche-market goods being a tad 'folky'. In a way it's part of the charm, needless to say, the information is clear - that is the most important part.

The revolving back adaptor is amazing - it has really simplified things a great deal. Some of my old PQS lenses work at 1000th of a second too.

For me, the Hy6 really delivers the goods. 'Nuff said.

Xin Chen,
It doesn't get more sophisticated than this:
http://leaf-photography.com/ShowScience.as.../science/intro/

Umm, for the record:
A manual is a manual. It is NOT a book of well photographed product photography. The images are used to instruct you, not to wow you with correct product lighting techique, or advertise the product to you, or sell the product to you. They've already done the selling part.

Nice, but I would like to see it with the DB battery attached.

Obviously it doesn't look as good with the battery

Therefore, Leaf uses every opportunity to show their PR images without the battery attached.

If anyone would like to comment on the sinar hy6 manual (you can download here-
http://www.image2output.com/user_resources...6_operation.pdf )
I will happilly collate and see if we can improve it if required or you feel it helpful
Edwin

Well this is not a PR image this is a technical one taken from the manual.

The 2nd battery is optional which is why it is not shown in most of our marketing materials.

Yair

Dear EPd,

If I worte a review on my purchasing exprerience and the first 3 week using of my AFi7 I cannot say all your above quote? Or do you have any proof of my FABRICATING something?

If everyone here must say: xxx camera is so great! excellent!.... to please or amuse every manufactuer , how can we live?

Thanks,

Xin

As for the manual quality, it may be a culture issue. Canon or Nikon will make different job.To improve the image quality at the Leaf Afi or Sinar Hy6 manual cannot be a hard job.

The picture attached is cropped from the above manul, the two screws on the right side even have not been put on.

The structure or the context of the manual is good. Let us just do something better.

Thanks,

Xinchenc,

You said you only had posted only one complaint in this forum. This listing has debunked that claim now, right? You put a lot of assumptions in all those complaints I quoted from you. If you are going to make claims you better make sure you add some serious evidence to it. Especially when you are going to accuse people for being not professional or untrustful. This is not a People's Court of internet judges with you as the People's Prosecutor. I don't need any proof for you fabricating stories (I didn't say you were). It's you who needs to prove that your accusations are correct. None of your accusations were in response to someone else's claim. You seem to use this platform to put people (suppliers) under pressure, without giving them a fair chance to solve your issues between you. To me that smells like unfair play.

And if you still wonder why Canon or Nikon do a different job on a manual: they plan to sell hundreds of thousands of cameras. Putting a big team to work for just the manuals costs only a fraction of the entire turnover. For small companies like Sinar and Leaf it is relatively very costly to produce a perfect manual. And despite that you have already had an offer to come up with suggestions for improvement. You could take up on that offer...

I've said enough now. Think about it, or don't if that is what you prefer.

Regards,
EPd

To speek at a forum having a complete different culture is not easy.

Many Chinese photo fans surf on foregin photo web sites and even speek there like me. But can you see some foreign photo fans surf on Chinese photo web sites and speek there?

It is not just a language issue. This about it.

Thanks,

Xin

nihoa Xin
This does not make sense.
What I have learned from the Chinese culture in the last 3 years is the whole issue of losing face and humbleness.
According to your chinese culture you make this forum and yourself lose face by your unconstructive complaints.
m*

Thanks for your losing face understanding on the Chinese culture. The God will save you.

I think it's time to move on.
As an Hy6 user,I do agree that the manual doesn't win any awards for design.
Like was said before,if they would sell Hy6's by the truck load ,maybe a bit more money
could have been spend on product photography.

In the case of the Hy6,in my opinion ,all it has to do,is how to use the camera.

In that case,the manual does it's job.

Cheers,
Willem.

I have avoided to write something, to not inflame the debate. I have had an explanation with Xin via PM. The information that the manual's pics "suck" has gone through and it has been forwarded.

I wish simply to say what others have mentioned: we do not sell thousands of units a months, like Audi in China for example, are small companies and do put our efforts where it seems to be important and necessary to us, namely produce a manual which gives the user the best possible information.

Best regards,
Thierry

I should publicly say thanks to Thierry who helps me a lot on using my Leaf Afi (not Hy6 ).

Hy6 or Leaf Afi is a great camera of great design. It is not easy for most people to spend $3xxxx just on a camera. So as a user, I expect things can go even better, which will eventually boost camera selling.

Wish Hy6 and Leaf Afi have great prosperity. They must have.


Thanks,

I don't think xinchen means to be so rough in his tone (translating mandarin to english can result in strong unsubtle words) but looking at the gist of his complaint it's probably pretty true that the instruction manuals of many high end products could use some quality control.

it doesn't matter how small the company is, as a mark of professionalism one would think that a clear concise instruction manual is a sign of high standards and pride of a camera manufacturer

Is the Hy6 manual printed? Or is it a pdf? Because if it's printed it's already better than Hasselblad. They just included a pdf with my the H2. Even the H1 came with a printed version. Bad.....

I think its fair to say that updates are so rapid these days that continiously producing printed manuals for relativly short run products with a high update rate is not optimum and that pdf format fits the updatability/distribution requirement better. For most high-end camera clients the dealer will train and demonstrate the product so the pdf performs a portable aide-memoir rather than primary training function. If a client asks for a printed copy I know that on occaision Sinar have printed and sent the latest version as have we.
This follows the wider commercial trend where Digital printing has changed manaul storage to be primarilly electronic for short run documents and I have worked with corporates delivering sales brochures literally print -on -demand from a virtual document warehouse.
I personally prefer to read a printed copy and usually print out befor reading anything more than 2 pages and would also appreciate a manual with a purchase.
so its probably best for the dealers to print manuals on delivery and I think most would be happy to oblige.

Edwin

For anyone who needs to see the Leaf AFi manual it is available from our website.
It's a fairly large 8MB PDF mind you.

Yair

At the view finder section, I suggest leaf give user more information on the 90 degree eye level finder. Though it has a built-in hot shoe, but it is not electricly connected.

Upgrading form Contax 645, when the first time I saw Leaf Afi product picture, its hot shoe on the eye level finder was regarded the same function as the hot shoe on Contax 645. I once wanted to make a L-bracket body plate for my AFi, in which case the hot shoe on the left side of the camera body is not easy to access. Now I am using RRS multi-purpose plate.

Just my 2 cents(Chinese Yuan ).

Please, don't say it like that.
Every place have its own rules, you adapt yourselt to it or you leave. I dont't think this is about culture, not at all, and please don't confuse people about it. You speak only on your OWN behalf, but not Chinese.
Most Chinese professionals don't speak English, this is why there are few chinese guys here. BUT well educated chinese pros are all really polite and humble AFAIK.

Xinchenc, I understand your feeling now, if you do agree this is your fault, FEEL FREE and just don't do it again, you won't be an enemy. if not, please do think about it before you post another thread which maybe taken as hotheaded "complaint" by other people.