I have been asked in another thread (Mamiya 645AFD and new Mamiya 75-150 lens compatibility) if I could give my fist hand impressions of the new Phase One 645 which I just tested for the weekend.
But as I didn't have the AFD II (nor a Hasselblad H2...) for comparison, don't expect too much. I also lack much experience with those two cameras.

I was able to use the Phase One 645 with the 28mm AF, 45mm AF, 80mm AF (old), 120mm Macro "D", 75-150mm AF "D" and 200mm AF.

As stated before (and on the Phas One and Mamiya homepages), there are the following improvements:

AF: reactive, relatively fast and very accurate, no hunting.
Speed and sensitivity certainly isn't up to that of my Nikon D3, which might have to do with the generally lower speed of the lenses, plus they don't have the AF motors built into the lens of course.
The possibility to choose from three different AF-sensors is not really of great value as they are placed extremely close to each other in the centre of the frame.

Shutter: Seems of improved durability, as the value added version gives you a warranty of either three years or for 300'000 shots!
The camera is ready for future lenses with leaf shutters, which might totally solve the still sometimes present problem of shutter vibrations, which can cause blurred images.
I did on several occasions have slightly blurred images although I have used the MLU on every shot from the tripod, and shutter release was then done with a cable release.
I find the MLU feature of extreme importance, at least with my P45+ and the high pixel density. Even the smallest errors in picture taking do decrease pixel quality (sharpness).
You can easily choose MLU on the main dial around the shutter release.
Shutter speeds go from 1/4000 to 30sec and bulb, sync is 1/125.
The longest exposures I happened to do this weekend was 2min (on bulb), no problems there with the P45+ of course. With my ALPA SWA I actually have been doing up to 45min exposures, without problems besides the fact that you really do need spare batteries.

Power: The back has seperate power from the body, which runs on 6 AA type batteries. You can officially use recharcheables and set a custom function for the type you're using. Not sure if that just improves the information precision for the remaining capacity or anything else. I did about 400 shots on one set of recharcheables, and they weren't emptied! No scientific test, I know.

Viewfinder seemed clear with good contrast, the screen still has some grain which is actually fine for the manual 120mm Macro lens: pops into focus nicely!
Viewfinder info is as usual, below the image and well readable.

The whole handling of the camera ist straightforward, I simply never had to read any manual besides the settings for the custom functions, which I did out of curiosity.
I was able to concentrate on my images from the first frame on, this is defenitely a photographers camera!
I was actually told by the rep that the camera is identical to the Mamiya AFD III and that the electronics have been redesigned and improved (whatever that means) by Phase One together with Mamiya. I had two lockups which were solved by quickly removing the battery pack. The rep had warned me about this and promised a firmware update: I certainly hope this won't take as long as the update to capture One 4!
On the other hand for a brand new camera it made a very stable impression, it's very solid and fits your hand nicely. The rubber they use on the grip is very "sticky".

I don't know if Phase One offers Capture One 4.1 with the camera as I already have it with my P45+ back. It works fast and the whole workflow fits my working style quite well.
The new corrections for CA do work really well: The 28mm was sort of a disappointment until I turned the correction feature on, which changed the files into very usable ones.... C1 4.1 currently has profiles for the Mamiya AF lenses 28mm, 35mm and 45mm. Updates for more lenses are promised as well.

When I returned the camera today, because of my very good first impressions, I ordered one right away!

I am now however also waiting for the new 45-90mm, which promises to be an excellent allround zoom. I fully expect it to be up to the very high optical standards of the 75-150mm, which for me was the big positive surprise on the lens side.

From the point of the optics, I'm a bit spoiled with my ALPA SWA, as I use the phenomenal Rodenstock HR 35mm, 60mm and 100mm as well as a Schneider Digitar 180mm. So although the Mamiya lenses probably aren't quite in the same optical league, they offer tremendous quality for the money.

For those who are interested, I have attached the comparison of the 28mm without and with CA removed by C1 4.1 again, resized for web only of course.

Click to view attachment

I was talking with the salesman who sold me my A75 a few days ago and we were talking about the AF system in the new Mamiya. He said since the medium format manufacturers don't have the resources to R&D their own systems they buy off the shelf from existing 35 mm systems. That is why the the three focus points are so close to one another.

That's a shame since I was really looking forward to a working multipoint AF system.

There are two highly positive points about the Mamiya:

- It is really easy how to figure out how to use it.
- It's the only MF body for which a couple of hundred dollars will buy you a used latest-generation lens. One can fill a kit bag very nicely with a thousand dollars.

Edmund

I will second that....

I will third that

User friendly, faster AF, improved shutter lag and a very economical MF solution.

Once the leaf shutter lenses are released & reviewed I might drop a few quid on one of these babies

Ditto!
Snook

which bests lenses will you suggest ? from 35mm to 250mm ?

thank you

Your mention of the firmware issue, currently on the AFDII, any firmware update has to be done by Mamiya. Did Phase One mention if the firmware updates could be done by the owner, (like most of the rest of the cameras on the market currently) or if it would have to be sent in to a dealer for the upgrade.

Thanks
Paul C

Notes on the 28mm

I have used 2 so far. Both are show considerable softness in the corners on a P45+. My first one displayed the falloff in a very harsh way and Mamiya replaced it. The first lens also had considerable CA, mainly in the blue color.

The replacement lens is also showing corner softness, but not as harsh and most times I can use the image with a slight crop. CA seems to be better. This is in the F8 to F11 range. I have not tested it much past this. The first lens had the worst softness in the lower left corner, the new lens seems to show in the upper left. At first I though the P45+ sensor might be misaligned (have read much about that) but other lenses don't seem to display the same softness.

I have found that the Capture 4.1 presets which are supposed to also help on CA, seem to add considerable softness to the overall image. Lightroom 1.4's CA fix seems to work better for me.

I am working on getting some profiles to the author of PTlens for the 28 but can't get that done for a week or so.

Paul C

Someone needs to sign up ALL the MF camera makers to buy the same large multi-point AF sensor, and then make it. The combined numbers might make all the difference.

for me it seems to be incredible that camera manufactors decided to quit their qality control even with lenses in this pricy region. years ago it was the domain of sigma lenses and the reason why a lense which was made exactly in the same way have been so much cheaper by sigma/ schneider/mamiya than by leica. leica claimed that they only used 10% of the lenses, the rest was badged withthe other brands ( 28-70 mm zoom was sold by sigma and by leica, 28pc by schneider and leica, several lenses by minlta and leica ).
more and more nikon and canon did the same than formerly the cheap manufactors as sigma , even with their expensive lenses. this resulted in the fact that you can check two lenses of the same type and both are performing 100% different. it seems to be cheaper to sell the lenses without checking them and it seems also that too less clients care about that and use what they get from their shops.
but this kind of ssues with so prof. and that expensive lenses as the mamiya 28?
shame over the manufactor. cant excuse this.

Sorry if I am a complete moron here, but I have yet to find a price on this one.
Does anybody know how they will offer it as a pack, from phaseone with a phaseone back and from mamiya with a ZD back or will it be phaseone all around.
And does anyone know if it will be a 10000$ kit version as the Mamiya AFDZD pack that Mamiya offered, that would be a truly great way of getting my first MFD start.
Thanks for straightening me out in all my lack of knowledge.
Karl

Hi,

today I joined a presentation of the Phase backs, Phase camera and Capture One. The new camera and lenses give a much better feeling than the old Mamiya 645s.

A so called "Lens+" function in C1 was introduced. That is a software correction of the lens errors. I was astonished to learn that the software addresses only CA and no other lens errors like vignetting or distorsions. I asked twice and got the same answer. Is this true? Does anyone know more? Gave the presenter the right info?

Best,
Johannes

If you go to the main Phase One site, they now offer the new "Phase One" body in a kit. You get your pick of the back, 25+, 30+ and 45+, the 80mm (new metal barrel style) and the Phase One body. I also saw single body pricing for just the body on one of the forums and as recall the body alone was 4300.00. I believe that also has a shutter actuation warranty on it around 300K for 3 years.

http://www.phaseone.com/camera/ Phase One camera solutions

Currently Mamiya's site US, only shows a single marketing page on the AFDIII. No kit info etc. They only show the AFDII in the kit with the ZD. That I am sure will change as the AFDIII starts to ship.

http://www.mamiya.com/products/default.asp?ID=49 Current ZD kit offer
http://www.mamiya.com/news-events-press-re...-645afdiii.html AFDIII info


Paul C

Or they could buy, say five, 35mm AF sensors and spread them out

Sorry for the maybe dumb question, But Mamiya is going to come out with a AFDIII?
Or is it just going to be the Phase One body?
And If so, are the prices going to differ?
Or are you referring to the AFDIII being the PhaseOne Camera?
Thanks
Snook
No upgrading here until they come out with leaf shutter lens...
Until then it is the RZ and AFDII even with it's annoying shutter lag...:+}
Snook

Based on what little information Mamiya and Phase One have released to date, the two bodies are apparently "identical", except that one will say Mamiya on the front, and one will say Phase One. But who really knows for sure, since the rollout of information has been, IMHO, pitiful. As a Mamiya AFD II/P45+ user, I feel I've paid for the right to bash them publicly :-)

From everything I've heard they are identical. The only prices I could find online for the Mamiya AFDIII was from Harry's Pro Shop in Canada. Body only is $3699 in Canadian dollars, which is now like 1:1 to the USD. The "Value Pack" with the new 80 D lens and film back is $5599, while the 645ZD kit with ZD back and AFDIII and D Lens is $12999.00. Again, all in Canadian dollars. If these prices hold for the US, well, it better be good. A Rollei Hy6 is supposed to sell for what, $7300 with the 80 F2 and the 645 back? Come on Phase, make an adapter!

Hi
US pricing for Phase One camera plus backs.

http://www.captureintegration.com/phase-one/phase-one-645/

Denis

So $5k US for the body and lens in Phase One flavor. Interesting. If the shutter lag is substantially reduced I might bite!

hi TMARK,

Just to clarify some possible confusion:

The enduser price list from SBI USA says:

- Sinar Hy6 with 80mm = US$ 6'542.- with a 3-Year Warranty

The PO link provided by "mcfoto" says:

- "By itself the Phase One 645 and Phase One 80mm lens will be $4,990 with a classic warranty or $7,990 with a value added warranty".

Best regards,
Thierry

Snook,

Sorry if my other post caused confusion.

Mamiya will offer the AFDIII under their brand, see their link in my prevous post. All they currently have on their site is that one web page no pricing or availability. If you buy it from Mamiya it will say AFDIII, I base this on the picture they show on their site.

Phase One will rebadge the AFDIII body per the other link, this camera will carry the Phase one name. They are also rebadging or re selling the new 80mm lens with the metal barrel with the body.

I don't think Phase One is making any of this equipment, just rebadging it.

Everyone seems to think it's exactly the same camera, just rebadged. Only Mamiya and Phase One can really answer that, and so far they really haven't said much in that area. They have talked around it however very well.

Thsinar, Thanks to the other post on the pricing, I left out the fact that for the 4300.00 you are getting the 80mm lens also. That is a price increase over the AFDII and the current 80mm which should retail for around 3600.00 body and lens.


Paul C

It's just rebadged folks . But Phase gets the body first to sell with there backs, waiting for mine right now than Mamiya will release after a period of time which i don't know when that is but my guess is August.

I do have a question though and that is the noise from the body. I know they dampened the mirror and shutter. On a percentage level how much quieter is it than the current AFDII.

Once the 45º prism or 90º finder is added to $6,542
the standard camera kits from Hasselblad, Mamiya & Sinar
are all similarly priced.

$3,000 to warranty a camera for three years seems a bit steep, dealer loaner or not.

Looking at all of the pricing from medium format you just assume that something has got to give, hopefully in a good way for the photographer.

I don't understand this value added stuff, though I guess there is good markup there for someone, but I think at the price ranges, a 3 year warranty would be the norm, not an add on.

Regardless I'm surprised at the prices of lenses, but I guess this bears out that making a lens or in japan or germany doesn't change the price the way it used to.

Oh well, back to my Contax.

JR

James,

This is the norm(al) warranty with Sinar digital backs and cameras, as well as accessories, since always = 3 year warranty

Best regards,
Thierry

Right . . . good, but isn't this really built into the price of an HY6 and a Sinar back?

One large Los Angeles dealer said the price of a HY6 and Sinar 33mp back was $39,900 U.S. (without prism).

Next how long does it take to process out 2,000 files in Sinar software and will the files work in other raw converters without a dng conversion?

Can sinar sell an HY6 and a comparable back at these prices or better put, what is the complete US price of a Sinar back HY6 and 80mm lens with a prism?


P30+ Camera
Starting at $22,490

31.6mp | P1 645 | 80mm
p1 camera system 4

P25+ Camera
Starting at $23,490

22mp | P1 645 | 80mm
p1 camera system 3

P45+ Camera
Starting at $32,490

39mp | P1 645 | 80mm
p1 camera system 5



_
JR

James, isn't this really built into the price of a Mamiya/Phase 645 and Phase back? Or in the price of any other brand?
My point is: the prices given for any Sinar product are always with a 3 year warranty.
From there one can then compare easily.



I don't know this large LA dealer, but I know SBI's published price list (see below): the Sinar Hy6 - e75 (33 MPx) is priced at US$ at 38'000.- AND, see above, WITH a 3 year warranty.
What I read from your detailed prices below is "P45+ Camera Starting at $32,490": what does that mean? Probably with a 1-year warranty



Sinar's eXposure SW does create DNGs automatically, there is no processing time for this, and those DNGs can be taken over by all existing DNG compatible applications.



The complete Sinar price list from SBI can be found here:

http://sinarbron.com/documents/Sinar_Pricing_2008.pdf

You have criticized more than often those not having a clear price list: have a look to this one, and tell me if something is missing. It's long, admitted, and sorry for all those products/items we have in our catalog, but it is clear and straight, for each existing Sinar product, analog and digital.

Best regards,
Thierry

I agree that every camera in this price range should have a 3 year warranty and tacking on another 25 to 30% is just a fear buy. If the camera is built well it will make three years, if it's not then well it should be fixed.

As far as published prices, I don't care if anyone ever publishes a price, but it just makes no marketing sense that anybody requires a customer to go talk to a dealer just to see standard list prices, anymore than it makes sense for Hasselblad to require you to register for a magazine and the resulting spam just to see a sales price.

Still, how long does it take to process 2,000 sinar files in your new software, can you rename on the fly, background process, move files to other drives by drag and drop.

As we all know software is now as important as the hardware.



JR

James,

I have had the shutter of my old 1Ds replaced twice already. "Somebody" told me that they are seeing 7x clicks on the digital SLRs compared to the film SLRs over the same warranty periods.


Edmund

Yes, I have my 1ds2 shutter replaced also, but for some reason never the original 1ds that I still use.

On Canon's behalf they fixed it in a day and though out of warranty it was no charge.

JR

As said, James, you get DNGs, when shooting tethered or downloading from your internal memory or from a CF card.

- renaming on the fly: yes, is instant on 24 images (just tried it), and probably the same for 2'000. Just select the files in the contact sheet to be renamed and type the new name in a window, then click "OK"

- background process: one can create, save, load, copy or paste parameters (input profile, working space, rotation, white balance, exposure, contrast, curve, saturation, colour temperature/tint, crop, USM, etc ...) and apply them to as many files as wished, by selecting the files in the contact sheet on which these parameters should be applied.
Those saved parameters can be managed separately and be assigned.

- From there one can export as TIF (or JPG) and the export takes 22.3 sec/file on a MacPro 2 x 2,66GHz, 4GB RAM, OS 10.4.11 and 25.6 sec/file on y MacBookPro 2.33 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo with 2 GB Ram and OSX 10.5.3 (my setup). When taking over to a DNG application, there is no need to export since the DNGs are already there (in the folder of your choice), and the parameters are taken over.

Best regards,
Thierry

Hey Thierry,

That would be 12 hours and 38 minutes for 2,000 files on a crutch like yours. Just kiddin

A 3.2 Ghz 8x core with 16 Gig Ram and SAS drives should do "slightly" faster.

James, I must say, from my own research, I found Sinar the most transparent considering warranty and pricing, and well, you do your own comparison, but I also think it to be really ridiculous to even offer a camera on that scale with a 1 years only warranty.

Btw. to the best of my knowledge, Sinar even garantees a 10 years availability on spare parts, talk about a piece of mind solution.

Best wishes
Georg Baumann
Oceanviewstudio

Hi
Having owned Mamiya since 1999 I would not spend the extra $3000.00 for the value added Warranty. What I would do is buy an extra body for backup. I have had no problems with the AFDII. For the amount of use with the Mamiya I had more problems with my Hasselblad 500 CM to be honest plus I could barely focus the Blad even with a bright screen.
Denis

Yes, that's true! But not much worse than PO's C1 (11 hours and 40 min) tested on the very same machine.

But this would not be my workflow anyway, just a reply to James question. The workflow is using DNGs, which are produced automatically by eXposure, may be apply some parameters in eXposure (or not), which is instant, re-name (which is instant), and then drag and drop thos DNGs into any DNG compatible application (LR, ACR, Aperture, Raw Developer, C1, etc ....).

So I don't see how it can be any faster than this.



Yes, so it is.

Best regards,
Thierry

CaptureOne processed an eMotion75lv DNG to 8-bit TIF in 15 seconds
MacPro 3GHz x8 with 10GB RAM

Hey, you got a 1Ds again ? I thought you'd sold it by "mistake" . What are you using it for ?
Canon fixed mine twice too free of charge -

Edmund

I have tested it with a MacPro 2 x 2,66GHz, 4GB RAM, OS 10.4.11: takes 21 seconds with C1 to export a TIF-

So it is safe to expect eXposure to do it around 16 sec with your setup. Not that bad, I suppose.

Kind regards,
Thierry