Sorry did not see this in a search but I am sure it has been discussed.
I have a P30 bought in December more or less used...
I have an opportunity to exchange it for a P30+ and Mamiya Kit/PhaseOne camera 80mm etc...
For an upgrade price of 13,000 us dollars more or less.
Sounded like a pretty fair deal but really have no idea..
So wanted to get the opinion of other who may have had both (RE:Mr. James Russell)
and can help me decide if the + and a mamiya/phaseOne camera kit is worth an extra 13,000 us$?
I am thrilled with my P30.. the Only complaint is the Stupid screen is not worth much which baffles me and supposedly it is not much better on the + series??
Live Preview y Higher iso I could care a less about really?
Would it be a better invest to get the + anyways if I wanted to sell it in the future? I am pretty sure it would get me more than the Non + series let's say in 2 years or so?
That seems like a good enough reason or no?
Thanks for any input either good or Bad I would really appreciate it..
Thanks as usual
Snook

That sounds like a very fair deal to me.

I have had both -- first the P30 as a loner from Phase, then the P30+.

I would definitely go for the upgrade if you can -- the difference in quality for my style of work is huge. I shoot a lot of on location fashion, with natural light, and with the P30+ I can use 400 no problems or even 800 if necessary.

I just did a shoot using the backstage of a theater as the location, all shot at 800. Dark shadows, contrasty light. The images are grainy, but are some of the richest, most film-like images I've seen from digital. I also used my 1Ds II for some shots, but ended up only choosing the Phase images. The Canon grain at 800 starts to look sloppy, smeared.

If you shoot low-ISO in studio, I don't think the differences would be worth the price of the upgrade. At 100 both backs look about the same, but the color seems richer from the +.

Good luck.

I don't think the difference between the plus and the standard p30 is that drastic. The Plus has better iso, but I wouldn't say a full stop better but maybe something like 1/2 to 2/3 (2/3 being optimistic).

The lcd screens are just different. The plus uses more power and the battery won't last as long, also the plus screen is not as good in bright sunlight. For high key work both the plus and standard lcd screens show blown out highlights that really are ok once in the computer.

Where the plus lcd is better is under softer more evenly exposed images and viewed in subdued light, in that scenario the plus screen is better to the point of almost good.

The color with both cameras seems the same to me and both look better in V4 than 3.78 for most of my work but both like all medium format backs are very color sensitive to ambient color, so if your familiar to the regular p30, you won't see a big change to the plus.

Though I have only held it I think the biggest difference is the actual AFD III camera, either phase or mamiya as I understand all the electronics in the camera have been altered so other than the basic body shape, it is in many way an entirely different camera.

To me 13k seems like a lot of money, because for that price you could also buy a p21 or two Canons as backup.

Though you didn't ask I personally like the p21plus better than the p30 plus. To me the iso is almost identical and though the p30 and p30 plus have both been great backs with few issues, the p21 has slightly more texture and less smoothness than the p30 that I like better, but that's from an artistic standpoint.

I think the p21 is a very under rated back.

JR

Gregory and Russell made some good points.

Since you only use very low ISO settings for clean files and from what I understand there's no difference at ISO 100 between both backs, you could save a few thousand dollars and just upgrade to the Phase One 645 body.

With your savings you can possibly invest in the soon to be released european leaf shutter lenses. The new Phase One 645 and eventual leaf shutter lens upgrade alone will see ergonomic improvements in your work flow at the very least.

Later on down the track you can always sell/trade up to the newest/next generation Phase One back.

Just a thought

I haven't seen anything worth upgrading on the new body - yet - maybe my understanding of photo technology isn't that good. Or maybe whatever is supposed to carry the day (leaf shutter lenses? ) isn't there yet or hidden under the hood (micro focus adjusment ?).

On the other hand, for new buyers having Phase on the front means Phase is clearly responsible for service which means you know exactly who to speak to whenever a problem occurs.

Edmund
Edmund

Thanks guys for ll the comments, I really appreciate.... Might not be a bad idea to invest in some of those Leaf shutter lens!! wish there was some kind of announcement soon...:+}
Thank you all
Snook

I have a belief of don't buy equipment because you want to, buy because you have to.

If your current camera is keeping you for doing something or even working , then buy, but if it's just a hope of a slightly better file then invest your money in your business in self promotion, or a better client sofa, something that will show a more immediate effect.

As far as the phase camera I know nothing about it other than I've been told it does more talking to the back than the previous Mamiyas which I guess in the world of digitial correction and integration is suppose to be a big thing.

Then again I don't think my Contaxs and Phase backs carry on any long conversations and the files are fine.

JR

OK.. Thanks
Your Brave using the Contax.. I had that camera in the film days and the lens are great but the Contax Body is cr@p and always had problems...
I have a photographer friend of mine just last week his Contax died and he was screwed b/c contax's are not abundent these days..
He is switching his P45 back contax mount to Mmaiya mount as we speak...
Not sure If I would want to be locked into a P45 and the contax for any future...?
S.

Everyone has different experiences, though I've shot about a billion images on the contax and the only thing that breaks is when we accidently put our thumb through a shutter.

Compared to other photogrpahers I know that use an H or a Mamiya I know I don't have lockups, jams and a firmware upgrade isn't needed.

Then again, we have more than abundent backups, 4 bodies, two sets of lenses on most of the primes and two digital backs.

I don't necessarily think the Contax is much better camera than the mamiya or the Phase but I do know the lenses at least feel more robust and focus easier than the Mamiyas I have tried.

What I have works and unless something is way, way, way better, I'll just keep working.

Of course eventually I may have to move from the Contax's to something else, but right now at the current rate that might take 5 years until I even think about it.

I'm curious about your friend because used Contax bodies are cheap and I've yet to go to a major market where I couldn't walk in and buy one off the shelf (usually used or demo). I've seen them in SF, LA, NY, Chicago, Miami, Tokyo, Barcelona, Paris and the price is less than anything I've found new and quite frankly probably very close to a major repair.

JR

Actually, right now on KEH is a ex- contax 645 with an 80mm for $1,799.

When you compare numbers to the Rollei HY6, $10,000+, the Leaf HY6, $7,000+, the Sinar HY6 $6,000+, the Phase 645, $5,000 even, $1,799 for a contax is almost free.

Some of this leads me to the thought of what most people do for backups. Do they have two bodies, two backs, or just chuck a 5D in the bag for a backup?

JR

5D or more, but having an additional body is probably a better idea come to think of it. (I really should pick up another..)

Actually, I finally see the prices of Contax coming down a little, which leads me to believe others are moving to the newer cameras, (or Canon really has conquered the world).

Still, I doubt seriously if what I own now in Contax and backup will ever wear out within any reasonable time frame and probably just last as long as I want.

Wheter anyone will make a digital back for them is another matter, but then again, I assume there will always be something available for it.

JR

Or they are sick of having them repaired all the time....:+}
I have a 1DsMII as Back up now..
James I was not trying to make any kind of insult... Just was wondering...
I guess if they are that cheap you could always just buy another Contax Body for back-up really.
I had Mamiya after my Contax for many many years and never really had any troubles apart from a shutter curtain went out on me after about 10 years..
And I was a lot less "careful" than I am now with digital.
You do nice work with whatever camera you have, I just was wondering how many have invested $$ in Contax which apparently has no future. Might be hard to flip a Phase Back in the future to a format that is or will be scarce??
Just non important thoughts...
Snook

I have two Contax bodies, one with a prism finder and one with a waist level finder and move my P30 between the two. I've only had the system a couple of months, but find the math and the quality hard to argue with. The only things that are expensive are some of the harder to find accessories (lens shades!) and a couple of the rarer lenses. The price of the bodies and the very nice 80mm lens is almost silly for the quality of what you are getting.
-Ron H.

i have and use the contax a lot when i am in spain and like it a lot too.
it has somehow the feel as its long-term 35mm german counterpart , the leica.
i have the 35/55/80/140+210. i like all lenses,- the 35 and the 80 are fabulous.
with the 55 and the WLF it becomes a very nice little "walk-around" hiend camera that fits in every bag and has less weight than a 1ds3. now with the new e75lv backs with which you can work now upto iso 400 or 800 its even nicer for me than ever before.
never had any problem, ifso i simply would buy a new body, which are pretty cheap.
battery consumption is high, but there are rechergable akkus out there now which work fine, so no more need for the AA compatible battery grip.

I rarely get my feelings hurt and obviously I have no stake in Contax success, because there really is no Contax. I see that as a plus rather than a negative.

My biggest conern on set is does it work reliably and if something goes wrong can we seamlessly change it. As I've said I have 4 bodes (though we only carry 2) and two backs.

Actually I'm much less concerned with a mostly analog Contax breaking or having issue than any of the new cameras that will probably need some type of firmware upgrades. I love the fact that the contax does not have a port for firmware upgrades.

You already hear that the mamiya 28mm needs a firmware upgrade, some mamiya 645's do, some Rollei lenses do, etc. etc. This may not be accurate, but if they do need constant upgrades to find the fixes, add on the lenses, that is just hours and days out of our lives that we don't need to spend.

I do have an intrest in selling photography, not selling equipment and quite honestly they are much different business models.

Obviously we want the cameras and everything that goes with it to improve, but I personally think all of the new medium format cameras and especially the lenses are too expensive.

Maybe I would feel different if some client actually asked for more detail, or cared what camera I used, but so far they don't. There is a lot of things clients ask for but at this stage file size is usually just a given.

As far as investment, all digital cameras don't seem to be high on the list of a good investment unless you use them to make money. All of them eventually crash in price and we all know cameras have moved from the 10 year analog business model to the 18 month electronic business model.

I personally don't think the camera makers have decided what business they are in. One one hand lenses come out two per century and on the other hand the camera backs are updated about every 2 years.

This may be a little off topic, but there comes a point that there is only so much even successful photographers can absorb and as the cameras get more expensive, the rates are tightening, the usage is getting longer, the number or setups per day is increasing.

This doesn't mean our industry is bad or in a downturn, but it does highlight the fact that more is asked of us than ever before and if money isn't an issue, time investment is.

Regardless, most medium format cameras were made to last a long time and buying used isn't really an issue. The manufacturer's know this also because it's obvious Hasselblad is trying to get all the H-1/2's off the shelves.

JR

I agree with you and certainly the resell of the camera is not an issue... You are correct.
I envy you and a lot of guys that shoot in the US, Because where I live the Client does not pay for anything extra...
Actually my clients got off scott free when the big switch to digital came along.
They had to pay for film and developing before which added up to big $$ on a daily basis..
But now there is no compensation for this, and again, I am speaking about my market and where I do my business which is still like the wild west where they do a lot of what ever they want here.
Just last year they formed a union for the grips in Film and TV commercial filming.
So forget about charging clients for all kinds of extras etc...
Just does not happen unfortunately where I live.
They have a pretty standard day rate for Advertising and a "per" picture rate for catalogue.
You talk about everyday the client wanting more pictures "sets" made everyday...
You have no idea how they demand "want" more everyday. And they are wanting the Stuff bascially on the spot now a days!!
And for me where I live it get's out of control.
I have had shoots that we finish 11:30 at night and the next day some billboards (the smaller ones for Bus stops) are rolling out.
Don't even ask the quality that sometimes get's publish simply b/c some bonehead wanna be newbie art director did not overlook or even have time to do stuff..?
I think this some how got off topic so sorry and we can get back to the topic at hand...
I could on and on about the Public relations and the way they work where I live....:+}
Thanks
Snook

Maybe I'm wrong about this but sometimes I think the makers of the equipment don't understand that when we buy a medium format back, or any camera, it's usually an elective not a client demand.

That's what makes this ever changing system of upgrades, buy it now, time stamps, firmware changes, etc. seem somewhat out of sync with most of our real business models.

Where I do think the makers are missing is not selling the other 12 devices we use to make a photo; drives, raid systems, calibration tools, dedicated computers, readers, lcd screens, etc.

They seem to have given that territory up to the dealers and no two dealers offer the same services or for that matter usually the same prices.

Look at the Red video camera site. They came out of the box offering the full package.

JR