Thanks Michael, I enjoyed reading your review, although I was left wondering a bit about some critical improvements. How was the AF? compared to the AFDII, and the competition. Was the selectable AF-points useful or useless? Has the shutter lag been dealt with? Maybe you could elaborate a little in this thread or update your review.

Cheers

Hi,
On my blog www.doorhof.nl/blog I have a small review on the AFD/III comparing it to the AFD/II.

Greetings,
Frank

Yepp, read it thanks.

Here is a link to the review:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/.../phase645.shtml


Chris Lawery
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chris@captureintegration.com
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer of the Year

877-217-9870 | National Atlanta/Miami
404-234-5195 | Cell
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By the way, I was surprised to see in your review that the AF is noisier, I thought it was supposed to be more quiet according to the info from P1?

We were told form the beginning that the "new" leaf shutter lens WOULD work on the AFDII..
Now it sounds as if they are going back on that..
The review clearly states that even on the new AFDIII they will have to be sent back to mamiya for firmware upgrade...?
What about the AFDII?
Thanks for any correction on this, if there is any...:+}
Snook

From Michael's review:

"The camera I used was the first off the assembly line with final production firmware, and was provided for testing by Kevin Raber, Phase One's Marketing VP for North America. (I am told that pre-production cameras that were circulated during May and early June did not have final firmware, and any testing of them done should therefore be discounted. The production cameras are apparently much faster responding and smoother). "

The new cameras will definately have to go in for updating to support leaf lenses when they start to appear. The interface design is not yet final.

I do not believe that AFDII's will be able to use the new leaf lenses. Apparently one of the big changes to the AFDIII brought about by Phase One's involvement in the project, is that the camera is now to a large extent firmware driven rather than using dedicated circuitry. This would appear to make upgrading the previous AFDII problematic.

Michael

Thanks for the extra information Michael..
I hope your wrong...:+} JK
Looks like a new body and one of the leafs are going to be back up in the 8-12,000 range just for body and one lens again...?
Bummer....
The latest Mamiya lens was well over 4,000 , I can only imagine leaf shutter (German Company)
new glass "D" to be pretty Costly...
Is a Zoom Leaf shutter possible..?
would hate to have to buy more than one lens at those prices.
That might help those 35 vs. MFDB threads in Favor of 35mm (Unfortunately) For me.
In any case thank you for the review and the Post..
Snook

The Phase 645 is too expensive. With a three year warranty its as much as a Hy6 and 80mm. Since price is out of the equation Mamiya/Phase are competing on quality and brand perception alone. While I like the AFD3/Phase 645 more than the H series (mostly), new comers hear "Hasselblad" and they get all warm and fuzzy because "'blad is the best!" and there is all the market hype and the (good) marketing etc. They buy the blad instead of the Phamiya, because who the hell has heard of Mamiya outside of professional photographers and a few ADs? I think that Mamiya/Phase should save a price increase for their next camera that is something truly new, from the ground up.

I wonder what street prices are going to be? At $2k, maybe $2.5k (body only) I'd bite. The AF is better, the feel is tighter. Its a nice camera. But for $7,999 I could buy a Sony EX-1 xdcam and go to Paris for a few days to meet with photo editors. Or I could get a 1ds3. In any case, as a business person, $8k could be invested into something else that would expand my capabilities. Faster AF and the "opportunity" to buy really, really expensive new lenses, leaf shutter or not, is NOT worth $8k.

Buy a Phase back and it is free with a 80mm lens. Free is kind of nice. Waiting for mine to arrive just recently bought the P25 plus. Buy a leaf back and it is also Free when the Mamiya version comes out. 7,999.00 is not going to be the selling price for it alone, more like 5k from what I saw. Chris can give you a more accurate number on the body alone

What I know is that the Dutch price will be in the 2500-2700 euro range.
That's including 19% VAT.
For the body.
I think for a MF body with the specs and handling of the 645AFD/III that is NOT expensive.

The Afi is of course a great system but the 645AFD/III is smaller to travel with and to do street style shooting.

MSRP on the Mamiya 645 AFD II is US$3,499.00 for the camera body alone at B&H. I'd be happy if the camera body were in that price range. I don't think the market would bear much more than that absent some really spectacular improvements over the current body.

Is that $5k with the VA warranty? I just want the body, so perhaps the body is in teh $2k range? I'll ask Lance when I get the chance.

T

I guess I'm spoiled buying used. I bought an extra AFd for $450 and all of my AFd lenses for under $2,000. I think I really want an RZ Pro2D but I'd like to skip the Mamiya serial communications protocol and just use a one shot cable. Its the communications protocol that introduces the shutter lag. Its just slow slow. I notoced while checking out the AFd3/Phase cam that the delay is still there, but less noticable.

TMARK

That's very interesting to hear about the RZ ProII versus RZ ProII D as far as the delay from the MSC protocol. I have been toying with the idea of an RZ for my Aptus. Whether or not to get the ProII D or just a ProII with a cable.

I would like to hear more from RZ users is there is a noticeable difference between the D version with MSC plate and a back just connected to the ProII body with cable.

Great review as usual Michael!

One very minor point on MLU with the AFD-II, and not that it matters since the AFD-3 is totally different, but for posterity: if you set the AF to the rear thumb button (using CF functions) then you can have AF and MLU together without having to physically switch to manual focus for MLU.

Hi Snook, I notice that you've been torturing yourself over the upcoming leaf shutter lenses, but really there is only one lens promised by the end of this year (just look at the record of on-time deliveries and make up your own mind about that). Could be 2010 by the time you have 3 or 4 leaf shutter lenses to choose from. If you can survive that long without them, maybe you don't need them after all. And if you do need them then perhaps you could consider swapping to another platform which works today. Just my $0.02. Or am I missing something?

I paid about $3450 (US) for my AFD III.
Bill

I think with the RZ the mirror clearing takes a LONG time, so the delay would probably only be noticed when shooting mirror up. I want to go with a plate because I have two RZ Pro2's and an RZ, a 50, 65m/la, 110, 150, 180 etc. An RZ used can be had for a few hundred. Amazing lenses, all synced up to 400. Buying a pro2d for $1500 seems wasteful.

Thanks for the info. I really liked the camera when I tested it.

T

Yes give Lance or Chris a call on that pricing just to be sure . I thought I saw 5k for the body and lens but not sure on the warranty period

Okay!---and now I'm happy.

Hi
I have been following this & I never heard anything about leaf shutters on the AFDII body. That was one reason for the AFDIII or new Phase body.

Yepp, as far as I can recall they've been clear on that fact right from the beginning, the leaf shutter lenses will NOT work on the AFDII.

The U.S. MAP price for the Mamiya 645 AFD III body is $4,409. Don't expect much, if any, discount from this price as the dealer margin is small. The price that billcb in Canada quoted is several hundred dollars below U.S. dealer cost.

Mamiya gear has always been seriously overpriced in the US compared with the rest of the world. Bill is in Canada.

Michael

Lance called me a little while ago and I asked him the prices . The new Phase One body and new 80mm D lens with 1 year warranty is 4999.00 with a three year warranty it will be 7999. Oop's this is US pricing

And I should perhaps add that at the time of purchase I also committed to buy the 45-90mm lens, so may I have got some "package" pricing. Both camera and lens were priced for cash only.
Bill

Oh mcfoto it sure was talked about as I asked about it several times... because I have missed the leaf shutter since the film days as I have the 55/80/150 leafshutters for the 645 and had all the Pentax 6X7 leaf shutter also..
Since the days of digital I have wanted high syncing (w/Flash) but there there have not been many option except Hassleblad but never wanted to invest all in Hassleblad...
The first 1D had sycning at 500/th but then they went back to 250/th on the canons..:+{
I never used a 1D as it's quality was not up to par for my clients in that day when they were all scared of digital..:+}

In any case yes it was mentioned and I am not going to go dig through that huge post to find it...
I am sure again b/c I posted and got response more than once..:+}
Snook

If I may respond as an 18 month user of the AFD II and a one day user of the AFD III, I find the AF marginally faster but no quieter - though that really isn't important to me.

The selectable points are quite close together but definitely worthwhile, tho' it's probably quicker to use AF lock and re-point the camera if you're working off-tripod.

Using the Phase back with Short Latency, I was never aware of serious shutter lag and I'm still not. I do have an impression, however, that it might be a bit more "prompt" now.

The real convenience, worth the price of admission to me, is that MLU no longer requires one to move to manual focus - a real time and frustration saver. I agree with Michael's concern about the mirror re-upping if you press the shutter release for too long, but I find that much less likely to happen with the electronic cable release.

I'll add to this in days ahead as I wring the body out!

Bill

re the shutter lag: What do you shoot? I never notice it until I'm shooting fashion or portraits, and then I think about the Hy6 or even the H which fire MUCH faster that the AFD series. The AFd and AFdII have the same lag. The AFd3 seems better.

Thanks!

So you're saying this basically amounts to $3K for two years of additional warranty.
Is there some other value added component that was not mentioned in the above price?

Mark

Well hear this, the camera and 80mm lens (not even film back) with one year warranty is $6650 in Sweden. Half the price if you buy it with a DB.

Mark,

There is an additional component to the 3 year Value Added Warranty. It is for 300,000 activations or 3 years and lists for $7990.00. The 1 year Classic Warranty is for 1 year or 100,000 activations and lists for $4990.00 like Guy has mentioned. If you have any more questions, please feel free to give Lance or I a call / e-mail.

Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
chris@captureintegration.com
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer of the Year

877-217-9870 | National Atlanta/ Miami
404-234-5195 | Cell
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Thanks Chris for completing the activation part to the pricing. I am really looking forward to my body coming soon I hope. The AF, Mirror , sound and speed of it , I am looking forward too.

$3,000 for the additional warranty time just seems outrageous.

I'm trying to find out if it is possible for the new line of leaf shutter lenses to work on Mamiya AFDs and AFDIIs. Please be patient, because I know that it is summer and quite a few people are on vacation currently.


Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
chris@captureintegration.com
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer of the Year

877-217-9870 | National Atlanta / Miami
404-234-5195 | Cell
Sign up for our Newsletter | Read Our Latest Newsletter

It seems like a pretty good little camera, but $7,990 is a lot of money for even a good Mamiya 645.

If I was the dealer I'd hide that $3,000 warranty information way down the page, or better still if I was Phase I'd just throw in a 2 or 3 year warranty, after all you would expect any professional camera to be good for 3 years.

Even better, I'd just offer a second body for $3,000.

In fact if I was presented with these numbers my first question would be, will the camera not make it 3 years?

Even if you take it to the far extremes you can go on KEH and buy two H-1 kits with lenses for $3,700 each, that would pretty much solve the 3 year warranty issue and give you "the assistant dropped the camera" backup for less than the Mamiya and the warranty.

The only downside to this is I don't know if the H-1 firmware works with all the different lenses or backs and I don't really know how you can tell. I guess people more involved like a dealer will know this.

I think Phase and all of medium format needs to decide where they are going on pricing and better yet how they are perceived in the professional market.

Though the H-series camera is not my cup-o-tea, it is considered the standard in medium format, if only because it's been out for a long time and you can pretty much rent one in every world market, major or minor.

So to take this one step further, if your a digital tech, what do you buy to rent to your client's?... a camera that is considered standard, or the Mamiya that is new and still waiting on lenses.

If I was introducing any new camera, my very first priority would be to get these cameras and complete lenses in the rental departments of every major store possible, even if it meant discounting them.

Get them in people's hands so they have a real connection.

My second priority would to be to find away to get these cameras "sold" as quickly as possible, even if it means lowering the price, or defering the cost in some kind of finance plan. A $3,000 warranty would seem to have the opposite effect.

My third priority would be to line the dealers shelfs with these cameras and lenses to give the impression that my new camera is the "new" standard.

I own most if not all of my equipment, but a lot of photographers don't or if they do they own just one medium format camera and some kind of dslr backup, so on the day of their biggest project they have to make sure that thier purchase is compatible and available in rental.

This forum seems to be very technically oreinted towards gear and it seems to attract people that want the latest and newest, (or at least enjoy talking about the latest and newest) but in the real world of making photos for money there are a whole lot of good photographers that produce some amazing work with some less than cutting edge equipment.

To move these photographers to purchase, there has to be a motiivation of either better price, better availability, better use, or to make it a real lock, the product should cover all three of these points the day it's introduced.

In the 5 or 6 years I've shot digital and I've noticed we've gone through a change.

Early on it was a compromised medium, where we either put up with certain workarounds. Now we're into a period where digital is pretty much the standard so whatever is offered really has to be reliable, available and be a no excuse system.

I hope all of these cameras have success as it is a sign of a healthy industry.

JR

I know the price does sound high on that 3 year but not speaking for Phase here and my bet is this really has to do with there value added warranty with there kits when you buy a back which offers other benefits like switching a mount on the back for free. Kind of saying buy a back with it but if you just want the body than here is what we have to offer because it ties in with there packaging. Phase one gets this body first from Mamiya from what i understand but when Mamiya releases it under there name my bet that 3 year warranty will not be part of it and just be like any other camera in the market place. To me this is just how they have to market it because of the whole kit idea.

Guy,

Sinar has a standard 3-year warranty, without any additional cost, with any camera, included the Sinar Hy6, with any digital back, and with any lens or other accessory, worldwide.

Best regards,
Thierry

Thierry it is most likely built into the price of the back to begin with. Different companies handle these warranties in different ways. If Sinar wanted to offer a 1 year warranty would they not structure the price accordingly. Of course they would. OEM"s will market different and warranties will fall under that marketing blanket.

When will AFDII prices go down?

If Phase and Mamiya think they will up-price the body and lenses by means of a paint job they are making a serious mistake. You don't turn a Volkswagen into a Mercedes by moving a couple of knobs around on the dashboard.

The new pricing is unjustified. I own a P45+ and Mamiya combo, the camera works ok mostly (damages about one of 20 shots) but is clearly what you'd call a "value proposition" for people who want MF quality at the lowest possible price point with no frills. $200 or $300 used lenses can be found all over the place, some AF and most MF.

I'd say that with Phase/Mamiya rasing prices and Hassy lowering theirs, and with Hassy improving both their backs and their software, any advantages of Mamiya as a value proposition are quickly being erased. The screen on the back of the Hassy will probably seal the deal for any doubters.

There is an argument to be made for Mamiya in fashion - the lenses have a nice soft look - but it cuts the other way for landscape. I do much prefer the Mamiya viewfinder to that of the Hassy.

Edmund

Nope, you are wrong here Guy: it makes no sense, on a price level, to offer only 1 year of warranty and then reduce the price: what you "spare" is ridiculous, believe me.

It has always been Sinar's tradition to offer from the beginning such a warranty, as well as giving a guaranty of at least 10 years of servicing and repairs on all the Sinar products, including digital backs.

I find it somehow strange that one gets almost criticized to do so, almost making it sound like a marketing hype or making suggestions, in opposition to other approaches offering a standard 1 year warranty. I am sorry to say it, but US 3'000.- for 2 years extension seems the wrong approach to me, not the opposite. You may want to check this on different prices of different kits and systems, from the different manufacturers, but it won't give you the answer, respectively you won't be able to jump to such a conclusion by doing so, since you would need to know the export prices to do so precisely.

Best regards,
Thierry

I agree with you mostly. I think having a camera that is as expensive as the Hy6 but not as good is a mistake. I also think running head on against Hasselblad's integrated solution and marketing machine with a camera that is more expensive than the equivelent blad is a mistake. The brand value just isn't there, although I think the quality is. I know that real prices people are paying are different, but because there is no transperancy in the MFDB world a half educated buyer sees that the Phase is more or less = to the blad, likes the blad's screen, the sync speed, the one battery, the one on/off switch, hyper focus etc. I suspect that the AFD3/Phase cam is a few years old. I suspect the next camera will be an all new deal, and may well be on par with the Hy6. That camera might be worth the $5k - $8k.

A question: What do you mean by "damaging shots"?

On Mamiya quality: The new one is really really tight like a dslr but not as fast. Looks and feels durable. AF is accurate and reasonably fast. My AFds feels old and worn, a little loose, but they still work and work (mostly) flawlessly.

Lenses: I think Edmund is wrong in his assessment of the Mamiya lenses for fashion and their comparison to H lenses. I find the 80mm 2.8 too sharp and contrasty for digital fashion/portrait/catalogue. The 150mm is also a little too sharp. The 55mm is the best lens they make, in my opinion, and on my P30+ is the normal lens. The 45mm is smoother and only sharp after F4, but it shines as a wide portrait and fashion lens.

As to the comparison to H lenses, well, the main difference is that most of the H lenses look better (read: sharper) wide open than their Mamiya counter parts. They do look different, as the H lenses seem to try and replicate the microcontrast and hard contrast of CZ lenses, of which I'm not a huge fan. Other Fujinon lenses are softer and have much better rendering for faces. The H 100 2.2 is a great lens. My favorite Mamiya lens is an 80 1.9 c lens, scratched and old. It is magic, so creamy.

That being said, I LOVE my P30+. I would say the results are in between drum scanned 6x7 and drum scanned 4x5, and yes with mamiya 645 lenses. I like the FP shutter. I use 1/4000 FAR more than I need to sync over 1/125. The new Phamiya is a step forward, and if you get it in a kit for a few grand or "free" its a great value. I know this. But the newbies who post to this forum every other day don't know anything other than the H3D2-31 has a big screen, is integrated like a DSLR, has a big viewfinder etc and is cheaper than the list price for a Phase Phamiya Cam and P30+, and the lenses are expensive, new.

When you stop to consider the economics here, the price is definitely unreasonable, but not surprising. If something goes wrong with the camera that Phase sells, who is going to fix it? Phase? No way, they don't make cameras or fix them. They have to return the camera to Mamiya and pay Mamiya to fix it, parts and labor and a profit margin thereon. Then, Phase has to factor its own costs into the equation. And Phase has no experience with the warranty track record of the AFDIII. They don't even have a warranty track record with the AFDII. So, they have to be fairly careful with how they price the extended warranty, because Mamiya is probably only giving Phase a one year warranty on the cameras it buys from Mamiya.
BTW, isn't the 3 year warranty on Phase backs an extra $3,000?

I find the big problem to be the non-circular aperture on the 80 which leaves hard-edged flare marks over my best images. I think I see a Sinar in my future - or maybe just a Contax

Edmund

Edmund, you must have a really poor set of Mamiya glass, or more likely a defective body or back not in alignment.

I also shoot a P45+ on a Mamiya and have none of the issues you have. Moreover my experience mirrors TMark's as respects the 45, 55, 80 and 150. I can only add that the 210 is a laser even wide open, being almost brutal on skin. The 35 may leave a little bit to be desired, never as good as the 55 and soft-ish corners, but even using that lens for landscape I get very nice, sharp appearing prints...

Cheers,

I'm sorry I don't believe for a second a company does not factor in the cost of a three year warranty in there pricing. BMW does it and everyone that includes long warranties does it in there product line. They would be nuts not to. If Sinar does not factor in the warranty in there overall pricing than i am surprised, they should.