I'm a bit worried of the distortion of the new 23 Rodenstock.
I hope it's better than the 28 Rodenstock.
I think Sinar should also offer the 24XL and 35XL from Schneider,however I don't think it would work with the sliding back.
However I could be wrong here.

Regards,
Willem.

it might be not easy to understand me, but my approach was always and only to get a system which worked for me good enough ( formerly with the brumbaer tools and my input to its workflow and specs as well ).
to make this clear:
i never have had any interest to invent something for anyone but me. i wanted a good and fast software, i wanted color shift free files, i wanted a camera which does not press me to look through fisheye like viewfinders or to mount and unmount 100 times a day my back just to take a look through the ground glass.
i could not afford that someone made the things for me exclusive, so i looked for partners, as i found them in stefan or in sinar. great partners because they have been very competent in their field and they have been very open to speak with me. this is a fantastic because so started an exchange which has led to real results. much more than i ever expected.....

i am not a "tinkerer", even i have less interest in gear than most here in LL ( which does not make it easy for me to write a review for michael.... ).
i never visited a photokina show till now, nor will i do this year. why? because i have to shoot at this time as i had to do it last time. i am a full-time photographer, not an engineer, not a camera or software manufactory and not a distributor of anything except my photographs.

but i have a vison how the things should work for me, and i try to go there where i want to go. i have to repeat it: i am not spending much time in gear -thinking in it or testing it,- but i know how my tools should work and i move myself if i dont find it in the market as i want it to be.
i spoke with many people, many are ignorant but others listened and discussed with me. some of these have been real great minds and capacities in their field and so things could happen as brumbaer tools or now the arTec.

know what i mean? if someone has a phase back with a "V" mount and wants to use the arTec, although it looks as there will not be an adapter from sinar ( although i dont know if this will be the last word ).
if you want this camera you have two choices: . either you are one of this LL ( ) photographers who earn 7 ,8 or 9 numbers hi income each year: than trash your phase back and buy a sinar or buy two ( you`ll save taxes ) , or you are still under this income level ( sorry this discussion about the incomes was too funny .... ) than use your phase or whatever back, take the phone, phone someone from whom you think he can help you, maybe mr. zoerkendorfer or whom ever,- tell him your vision, your problem and the chances you see for him if he helps.

i am honestly somehow tired of blaming all day long the manufactories for what they should do and what they should not do. its boring and my personal experience of working with companies isnt bad at all, at least my experience with sinar was and is simply great. but working with a company means giving and getting, not only asking and criticizing.
so if you already know whats wrong, if you know what does not exist,- make it appear. its not such big thing with a mechanical mount ( maybe i am wrong herein .... someone who knows more about the technical specs will tell it soon, as i suppose ).
but, as i said above.... i myself am very happy now to have finally the camera i always wanted. so at least for me thats great... good result for moving my ass and for asking help because i did not liked the existing solutions.

of course i like the side-effect a lot that many people can use this results now too and its really a big honor for me to see colleagues and great photographers will use this camera. i hope they will like it .

but about the missing features my personal advice: speak with sinar, speak with phase. speak with leaf or with zoerkendorfer or ask your friend around the corner to build you an adapter. and than there will soon be a solution which helps everybody in this game. maybe i am too euphoric at this moment .... pls. forgive me this.

I am very interested in this camera, but it looks like with all the different question here,
there is a lot to be answered.
Is there not a spec sheet available where all basic questions are answered and explained?
Marc

Rainer,
if you were a woman,I would marry you!
Regards,
Willem.

Rainer,

Great post! Better to light a candle than curse the darkness! I'm glad you and Sinar got together to produce a very innovative solution for us architectural photographers.

Thierry,

Is this camera limited to DBs only, or will there be an adapter for 4x5 film? I assume the Sinar Hy6 film backs will be supported? And can we have a technical spec sheet and more pictures soon?

Cheers,
Kumar

I suspect 3rd party companies like KaptureGroup will make a back adapter as soon as they can get their hands on one of these cameras

That's indeed one way of looking at it.

If you need a piece of equipment bad enough and can afford to spend the time needed to make it happen, sure, why not doing it. I can only praise your dedication. I had started to discuss with Ebony on a similar project so I fully understand the excitement related to such a process.

Now, when an existing piece of gear basically exists, and could be made available to many more potential users by a simple extension, I am just saying that the manufacturer might as well go that small step further.

I would benefit from it like many other photographers, and my contention is that they would also benefit from it in terms of image and market share.

Cheers,
Bernard

Don't take this the wrong way, but do you think someone associated with the camera can write a bias review? It defiantly looks like a very nice camera, but the reality when you already own a Cambo Wide DS system seems like a costly jump. My ownly hope is for cambo to see what can be done.

The most interest news is the schneider 23mm lens with a 70 mm image circle. I hope this is made available to Cambo for the Wide DS.

The 23mm is a Rodenstock, as Rainer informs. And Cambo has always provided a mounting service, if it is physically possible. About $1000 per lens if I remember correctly.

Cheers,
Kumar

That would be great news!

Cheers,
Bernard

Why 3rd party? Considering Sinar and their track record they will probably do it, only don't ask me about the price!!!

They usually have every little thing that yuo can think of on the accessories list so why not?

On the other hand, they are not known as Business Wizards... so maybe it will only be available for Sinar DBs, but that's a shame:(

Dear John,

Of course someone involved in the development and construction of a camera has his preference, but is it necessarily and always biased by means of "unfairness" to or "dislikes" of others?

I let you judge on this.

What I can say is that it was and still is a pleasure to work with such a professional like Rainer, somebody going straight to the point and raising issues which a manufacturer is not even able to think about, letting apart finding a solution. I can speak about since involved and informed somehow on a regular basis, and I know that the whole and sole idea during all this process was to build and come out with a camera for photographers. In this respect, the result is a product with as little compromises as possible. What surprises me is how easy and smooth and how fast all went during this work and cooperation.

Now please forgive me for not being able to participate much and continue answering questions here for the next few days. We have a second day going on here in Switzerland, and starting next Thursday the same will be presented in Asia to our far-east distributors.

Best regards,
Thierry

Best regards,
Thierry

I only said this because Thierry stated no plans for Sinar to make adapters for other DBs....

Rainer... well done to specify something like this, and top marks to Sinar for listening to the photographers.

This looks like a ground breaking camera for the architectural shooter, and another plus for the Hy6/AFi platform.

I'd be interested to know its dimensions and weight, but it looks like it might be compact.

One question. Are the shift and tilt axes independently rotatable? I expect that they are not, but it would be a nice bonus.

no i dont take it the wrong way because you certainly are right.
i hardly can and want to write a "review" because i am too involved in ithe birth of the camera
( and because i dont like to write "reviews" ).

what i can do is to write about how i use the camera in practice and to describe how it works for me. the technical details and the critics in terms of a real plus/minus review have to be made by s.o. else and therefor it has also to be waited for the final product.

the prototype is nice now, but not finished in all details.
some of the knobs will be changed, one arretating knob isnt working still, another one ( a very important one for tilts ) is not at its final level.
so its a prototype and its out now to bring final feedback to sinar what should be made different in the first serial, the camera is not at its final level.
although it works its not perfect yet so nobody can "review" it now at the moment.
but the missing things are details and so i am pretty confident that sinar can fix them fast.
there is a lot of knowledge by sinar for manufacturing mechanical cameras, i dont think any if the things which still dont work at final stage will be a problem in the first batch.

aanyway i dont know how products usually are reviewed in pre serial stages.
i will contact michael about this the next days ... he will know all about it.

i arrived here in switzerland sunday night, coming from hot spain, stopping here in zurich. now i go back to munich , i have several work too shot next weeks. perfect to test the camera.

Thierry,

How about a rear view, please, and...

Some other views and snapshots:

Thierry

Click to view attachmentClick to view attachmentClick to view attachmentClick to view attachment

Much appreciated,Thierry.
Billy

Thierry,

Very sleek! I don't see any vertical scales? I think mm scales, not just half-centimetre. What is the knob in front for?

Cheers,
Kumar

I'm not an engineer,
but am I wrong to think the center of the ground glass
and the rotation point of the tripod mount
should be lined up?

Click to view attachment

I can imagine the reason why they're not is
for the tripod mount to have a better distribution of bulk.

It's still unclear to me if/how the camera allows simultaneous tilt and swing,
and simultaneous shift V and shift H.

Is it obvious to everyone else?

hm. i dont know to explain it better than i did. maybe someone who understood can explain it better or is it unclear to more people here?

....................



about the nodal point which is not under the lens:
its at first a question of the weigth balance, if you dont want to need a very heavy tripoid the tripoid mount this weigth center should be the central point wher you go to the tripoid.

the 360degree plate in the tripod came in the camera, because we discussed to include this as a little detail, after i brought my tripod to sinar and explained whi i use this strange manfrotto leveller.
i shoot usually with this leveler to get a horizontal platform under the three way head, or under which head i ever use. in this way i can turn round the camera meanwhile i compose and adjust the image without that the horizontal position gets lost.
to integrate this rotary possibility in the camera mount itself means that, one time you have the camera horizintal adjusted e.g. with a three way head, you can turn it around its axe and you dont have to adjust the horizont again. this should be a very practical detail.

of course one can use this feature also for "real" stitched roundshots, but it was not my intention when i asked for this feature
i.m.o. a sliding back camera can never be a perfect roundshot camera platform and it will not be used often for this purpose, but you are right,- smetimes it will be used therefor.
anyway, the uncentered nodal point shouldnt create any problem at infinity or even at closer distances. and PS3 became so fantastic in stitching this kind of shots, i would be surprised if there will appear problems.
but the alterantive, an uncentered stativ mount leads to large weigth unbalances if you compose the image, so this seems to be for me unacceptable for this reason.

If I understood correctly the tilt and swing are not possible at the same time as separate functions. However, you can achieve the same effect by rotating the tilted lens and thus having the combined effect of tilt and swing.

Cheers,
J

Finally it seems that comes a digital camera for architectural work. The backs a as good as film, but all the cameras until now are only nearlly as good as the film based architectural cameras.
I was at ALPA and Linhof factory and tried their cameras, but there was no really good solution in Sight.
The ALPA is a great camera, but ther is no tilt and always changing groundglass and sensor is not comfortabel.
I hope I can try the new SINAR.

Michael Heinrich

Exactly.

Thierry

I'm not usually dense.
Maybe an exploded view of the separate components of the arTec would help.

I don't see where the entire front would detach allowing for the tilt knob to be at the bottom allowing for swing.

And, how does the lens rise to exclude the foreground. I don't see the vertical scales.

[quote=rainer_v,Jul 1 2008, 01:45 PM]

about the nodal point which is not under the lens:
its at first a question of the weigth balance, if you dont want to need a very heavy tripoid the tripoid mount this weigth center should be the central point wher you go to the tripoid.

Dear Rainer,

First a big congratulation with your new camera!! looks that your dream came true

please correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that when the back is behind the lens, ready for exposure, all the weight from the groundglass, viewer and back is on one side of the camera, at the time where you need the most stabile and even weight distribution.

Hope you are doing well

KR Adam

Hi Thierry. Thank you for the quick response.

After examining the photos that show the back side of the arTec, I take heart. It looks, to me at least, that the MFDB interface is a screw on plate (the bumps in the four corners look like screw heads to me, at least). If the MFDB interface can be removed, then I have no doubt that a third party can provide plates for other MFDB mounts. Since this is a technical camera, the proprietary electronic interface of the Hy-6 isn't needed - only mechanical adapters are needed.

I would be interested in hearing back from you as to whether my assumption that the MFDB interface is implemented as a removable plate is correct.

Regards,
Mort.

It is interesting that so many find a ground glass a necessity for photographing architecture. I find that between the view on the Phase LCD and the screen on my laptop that I don't miss using a groundglass at all. I feel the same about the tilts and swings. If I am shooting food or still life I would need it, but then I would use a different camera entirely.

I can certainly see that a demo of one of these technical cameras can make it seem cumbersome if you have preconceptions about how it should work (swapping a ground glass and digital back for every shot). I would say try going without the tilts and a goundglass for six months and then see on how many shots you really miss those "features".

Also, no Digitars?? I would hope not. I decided against the HR's after seeing the compromise in design. They are retrofocal lenses with a good amount of pincushion distortion. The number one reason I spent so much money on a technical camera was to get away from retrofocal lenses.

No,
that's where the four pins from the Hy6/AFi digital back insert into.

See, the rear of the Hy6 has the same female connector.
Click to view attachment

Its not the same but for about 15 years I worked with a Tilt Shift grondglass 5x7" and with a Plaubel Proshift (Like an ALPA with Shift, but without Tilt and Groundglass). Its a very good camera, but I personnally worked better with the TiltShift Groundglass solution.
So, why should I use a camera system with less possibilities?

The LCD on the back is not enough for composing and tethered shooting is not always possible.

I think it is impossible to make a symmetrical 24mm lens.
But without such a lens or a bigger sensor film still offers more possibilities.

Michael Heinrich

You're right. After blowing up the images, I came to the same conclusion. Sigh. If that interface isn't removable, then mounting non Hy-6 MFDBs would indeed be an issue.

Ooops. I hit the wrong button.

You are not dense, Billy!

The front part with the lens board rotates and makes an initial tilt to rotate as well, making it becoming a combined moved (tilted and swung) plane of sharpness, in respect of the optical axis. The result is the same as tilting and swinging alternatively and separately on a view camera with separate tilt and swing movements/knobs.

Thierry

I need to see it on YouTube, please
Seriously

While there is a lot more to see and learn about this camera, I'm terribly excited as well.

The 4x5 sits on the shelf - film handling is a bit tough these days for the non-pro without assistant; the use of 6x12 film means compose, back on, back off routine. Hard to do quickly in the middle of the city.

Some can use the Alpa, but again, if you like to compose (and are not tethered, and LCD isn't your cup of tea)that doesn't work so well. The built in groundglass, sliding, large and generous shifts (two directions), and modest physical profile.... boy, it sounds great.

So lets get the data sheet, price, get things moving here. When will it be ready? We're all waiting!

Geoff

TH

is there an interface plate beween the HY6 fitting and the old P1/2/3 cameras yet

If so you have finally tied your system together

(apart of the baffiling selection of same focal lenght different mount lenses )

S

hi Adam,

the back is pretty much in the center when in exposure position. The weight of the groundglass and viewer are neglectful and won't affect. The construction is very sturdy and offers maximum stability.

Good to hear, Thanks

/adam

hi Mort,

I am not sure what you understand under "MFDB interface", but yes, all our adapters can be taken away, including the Hy6 adapter which (revolving or non-revolving adapter) is used for the eMotion backs.

Best regards,
Thierry

yes, right.

Thierry

[quote=Geoffreyg,Jul 1 2008, 03:43 PM]

Some can use the Alpa, but again, if you like to compose (and are not tethered, and LCD isn't your cup of tea)that doesn't work so well. The built in groundglass, sliding, large and generous shifts (two directions), and modest physical profile.... boy, it sounds great.

Yes, you can use the Alpa's very well with groundglass, I have been doing this almost daily the last 18 month and +60.000 exposures....

Shift V +25/-15mm Shift H +20/-20mm is a lot, BUT Shift V +45/-25mm Shift H +25/-25mm is generous

/adam

You didn't follow the market in the last few years, didn't you?

http://www.schneiderkreuznach.com/foto_e/d...itar_apo_wm.pdf

Works perfectly on Alpa's, for example.

[quote=adammork,Jul 1 2008, 04:02 PM]
[quote=Geoffreyg,Jul 1 2008, 03:43 PM]

Some can use the Alpa, but again, if you like to compose (and are not tethered, and LCD isn't your cup of tea)that doesn't work so well. The built in groundglass, sliding, large and generous shifts (two directions), and modest physical profile.... boy, it sounds great.

Yes, you can use the Alpa's very well with groundglass, I have been doing this almost daily the last 18 month and +60.000 exposures....

Shift V +25/-15mm Shift H +20/-20mm is a lot, BUT Shift V +45/-25mm Shift H +25/-25mm is generous

/adam

[/quote]


i totally agree that one can use the alpas, and some alpa photographers ( as you ) are among the best worldwide. but, and this was always my point : not for all of us but for many the transition to digital is a very expensive decision. easily it costs you together with 4 or 5 lenses and a 33/39 mp back 40 - 60.000$, or even more.
but if you are still working with 4x5" film many have the feeling, and this feeling is not untrue,- that even if you invest this money you still end up with several compromises. and this is not very sexy, after spending so much money.
so, many photographers i know still are waiting. waiting for a solution which still might crack their bank account ( or not ) , but which at least looks attractive and not just as a compromise and a transition they have to make because some erics adams or rainers already are working digital and you think you HAVE to make it now too. unfortunately this even might be true. if you want to compete in the actual ( commercial ) market, its time to change to digital.

and i think there are too big compromises in the existing systems. good built or bad built. they are not thought till the end, i.m.h.o. all of them.
compromises in terms of wide-angle lenses and shift capacities or compromises of the way you have to compose your images.
if you worked with 4x5" you probably haven't used a linhof press camera with viewfinder, you used a technikardan or whatever with ground-glass and a nice bright image. and for lf photographers which are habituated to see their motif large and bright on their groundglasses its a big step in now where land to compose now with viewfinders or with lcds. of course you can do that. but do you want that if you already are in front of the decision and seeing the price of it and waht you will loose after the change ?

sure it works to shoot with viewfinder, sure you can unmount and mount your back 60.000 times ( and control it every second time or every time again if you got new dust-spots ) . if you see a spot, i know, no problem : sensors are easy to clean .

yes you can, as eric suggests, roughly compose your image with this nice big and optical viewfinders, abstract the exact shifts, abstract the curved distorted lines, abstract the mask if you usea 90mm lens, put the camera more or less parallel with the image and fine adjust your back afterwards in making 10 exposures and adjusting the back millimeter by millimeter, shading with your hands the lcd. you can do this even in bright sunlight. no problem.
but is it tempting for a photographer who compares this with the way he is ued to compose his images in his 4x5" system if he still hasnt had made the change ?

the real problem is that this compromises appear after you invested 40., 50, 60.000 $ or € .
the real advantages of the digital capturing itself you will probably have found out 1 year later, if you learned how much more you can do with your back than simply replacing your film with a sensor and ruining your lab. at this point probably you accept also the compromises in your system, because you learned to live with them and you see, that the results in your images are good and even much better than ever before on your old film system.

in case of the alpa its even a very nice compromise cause they are fantastic built, they have a very well thought and proof-en system behind and they offer a lot of movements since introduction of the xy.
in case of the ( somehow ) cheaper systems as the cambo you save some money ( not that much seing the costs of the whole system with sensor ) but now even the sex of the alpas is gone.

of-course, if you are a good photographer you can make good images with it. if you are a great photographer you`ll make great images with it. with all of this cameras.

my photographs dont suffer in any way because i use my gottschalt camera, but i always knew what to make better in this camera and its obvious that my camera is not on alpa ( or sinar ) standard in terms of tolerances. so i check many wide angle shots if the are sharp on both sides. mostly they are. and hey... its not a big deal. as for adam its not a big deal to remove and to mount the sensor 60.000 times. or for eric to adjust his frames with exposures on the lcd.

but i wanted something smoother, something more intuitive, something more 4x5" like.
to my own surprise sinar listened to me. thats all. here is the camera.

p.s.
about the 23-mm: i havent known it before and thats really exciting news for me to have soon a true ( AND SHIFTABLE ) wide angle lens.

Eric: i start to take it personal now . believe me, if the HR would distort too much i simply wouldn't use it. i am experienced enough and demanding enough to say this, ( as you are too ).
the HRs are not perfect and the new 23 shouldn't be worthier. but somewhere is a point for me where i loose the interest in more perfection, and this is when the things work fine and smooth. so it is working with the HR lineup. my images usually have straight lines. wthout that i would make here any compromises its very very rare that i post pro some distortion correction. and i use the HR line in 80% of my shots.

A question :

Are the horizontal AND the vertical shift on the rear of the camera ? It seems that the vertical is not independant of the (tilt) lens board.

PdF

I think the 24 is nearly symetric, but not at all:

http://www.schneiderkreuznach.com/foto/dig...po_xl_56_24.pdf

Michael Heinrich

I would like to commend Sinar and, of course, Rainer, for joining together to develop such an innovative product. It reflects a high degree of collaboration with an exceptionally skilled working photographer who understands exactly what he needs. If it turns out it can only be used with Sinar and Leaf AFI backs, I understand the business imperative behind that decision(much as I would like to buy one to use with a Hasselblad back). Sinar provided all of the R&D funding for the camera's development. Sinar should be allowed to make the business judgment as to how to best maximize its return from the R&D investment. It is an uphill struggle for Hasselblad, Leaf and Sinar to get prospective buyers to take a close look at their products and test them out. By offering a camera or lenses that you can only use if you buy one of their digital backs, they at least put themselves in a position where someone will take a much closer look at their backs and not reflexively opt for a Phase back.
If anyone who owns a Phase back is pissed, I would suggest flooding Phase One with e-mails complaining about its lack of product innovation(unless you think the LCD on the Plus Series backs or the "update" of the AFDII qualifies as product innovation). Phase One has been the 800 pound gorilla in this market. Why did Phase not work with Arca or Alpa and fund the development of such a camera? The answer, by the way, is that Phase has enjoyed a nice long run of others doing the dirty work of camera and lens development and marketing with its low profit margin(on the road to bankruptcy) while Phase sat back and scooped the profits from its near monopoly position of selling high profit margin digital backs. What a great business model. For Phase! Code word for that ruse: "open architecture".
This latest development tells me, at least, that MR's advice in his Phase camera review that a prospective buyer of medium format digital should first decide on the digital back is incorrect. I believe you should first decide on what your photographic needs are. There may be some cameras, lenses or features that you can only use if you purchase a specific back. Given how close in performance the various digital backs are now, why would I pick Back X if I really wanted to use Camera Y? Of course, the same goes for certain features of digital backs. If you need long exposure capability, a Phase back is apparently the only game in town.

Well put. THat Eric and others make these systems work is, as you noted, a testimonial to their really good fabrication and capabilities. That said, the idea of opening up the piggy bank and having then compromises doesn't sit well.

Sinar (and you) seem to have gotten the message on what was needed. If priced reasonably, the 4x5 can go on the block, and this is the next way to go.

Geoff

hi Sam,

sorry, I don't get what you are asking exactly: adapter plate for the Hy6 on the P series?

can you precise please?

Best regards,
Thierry

hi Geoff,

I expect the data sheet with detailed specifications as well as the defintive prices within next month, for sure before Photokina.
All have worked very hard to get this camera ready for June 30th, which was our deadline to announce it. And we have got 3 prototype samples ready for this event.

2 of those prototypes are now already in the hands of 2 proven photographers (one being Rainer) to get used in real shooting conditions starting this week. The 3rd one is kept by our R&D, obviously.

To those asking or wondering why one does not see any scales or mm prints, or just 1/2 cm prints:
The pics shown by me here are from one of this prototype camera: the angle under which the shots have been taken do not show all the scales and mm prints on it, but they are all there, believe me: H & V shifts, tilt & swing, rotation of the lens board, all in mm or degrees.

I'll try to make some more snapshots within the next days to show it under different angles, but can't promise it for sure.

Our goal is now to get feedback of the use under real conditions within the next couple of weeks to be able to make some last changes, if necessary. Our goal is to have it ready at Photokina and available for delivery as a finished product shortly after.

Best regards,
Thierry