Hi All,

about to purchase an 'around standard' lens for use on my Alpa with the Sinar 75LV.

After a comment in another thread that much more movement than 'advertised' is possible, I thought I'd look at buying a 60HR instead of a 47mm Digitar and the 72mm Digitar and save on 2 lenses....

There will generally be a need to shoot this lens with about 10-12mm of rise applied - can I expect much drop off in sharpness - will it cover?

Cheers

Murray

it will cover and there will be no drop in sharpness.

I keep wondering why the original manufacturer (and designer) keeps posting their image circles, maybe they don't know their own products??

I have the schneider digitar 60mm and I can get around double the rated movements for the lens. I think around 11mm and 17mm its only supposed to be around 5mm and 7mm, although im not using it at infinity...


this is on a 32x43 sensor btw (valeo 17)

Hi Murray
I went through exactly the same process over a year ago and ended up buying the 60mm HR for my ALPA SWA (and P45+). It's a fantastic lens!
I can use the full 25mm shift available (my 35mm HR goes to 15mm maximum).
I have also been testing and comparing the 47mm Digitar: Very useful focal length and much bigger image circle (which I don't need), but strong CA towards the corners (which can easily be taken care of in post).
The gap between the 35mm and the 60mm is really too small for me to justify the purchase of the 47mm, but it would make a nice addition, especially if I did more stitching.
As there dont't seem to be any bigger sensors available in the near future (than 645), the 47mm doesn't make sense for me.

I have never seen strong CA, or any for that matter, on my Apo-Digitar 47 mm XL used on a XY with full movements - I find this lens together with the Apo-Digitar 72 mm L to be the best in my bag.

Like Rodenstock, Schneider is very conservative when they are talking about image circle.

I fond it interesting as an architectural photographer that the sensors finally are growing, but - there is also some talk about an other sensor in full 42mm x 56mm here you need an image circle of 70mm just for covering the sensor, I think you need between 67-68mm for covering the new Phase, so If you have a wish of using this new sensors in the future, you have to consider if the image circle of the current Rodenstock's are meeting your needs.

Very best,
Adam

Jost,
a quick question.
Now that Phase has announced a full frame 6x4.5 sensor,this will render the 24XL not be able to cover.
Do you think the Rodenstocks HR are the go?
Cheers,
Willem.

I find the differences between the Schneiders and the Rodenstocks a bit confusing.

Seems to me that with the larger upcoming sensors one would want the largest image circle possible, which would mean the Schneiders.

I wonder if the Rodenstocks are sharper though. And then there is the retrofocus of the Rodenstocks which may give better results at the short end (like the 28) on sensors due to the better angle of light falling on the sensors.

I am interested in all the first hand experience and tips on this as I will be getting a 35, 47 and 60 or 72 focal length in the future, hopefully with one of these larger sensors, just after I rob the bank.

Luckily I already have the alpa swa with a 58xl film lens ( anyone have experience with that lens on digital?)

this is from an old post - I know that Rainer_v have almost the oposits findings - so in short, test for you self, if possible, and make you opinion:

I’m a Rodenstock man or was…. I have 12 Rodenstock's for my Arca’s 4x5 so it felt a natural to go that way – then I tested the 28HR and the 35HR against the Schneider's – I found that the Rodenstock's were a little sharper in the centre, but they performed a bit worse towards the edge than the Schneider's.

The Rodenstocks were also more yellow in the colour rendering than the Schneider’s, and not for my eyes, in a pleasant way – and they showed a bit more distortion as well – the tests were done on my XY, – BUT as you know you have to test for your self – I could have had my hands on two bad samples of Rodenstock's.

The Schneider’s, In my findings, are overall a bit sharper, have larger image circle, and are smaller. but the drawback is, the Schneider's need to be stopped down to around f.11 to perform best, you also have to use centre filters, at least on the 24xl, you can get by on the 35xl without, at least with a Leaf back because the custom gain adjuster can adjust for the light falloff, but I use the centre filter on the 35, but not on the 47.

/adam

I had my 58xl from my film days remounted by Cambo to use on the Wide DS. I am not sure what to say, but the lens works great. I was told by Cambo if they mount the lens for digital you can not use it with film? I have no idea what they do, but it works great with my digital back. The newer mounting technique you do not have to use a step plate on the back of the camera.

How would we know without actually testing the new combination?
Obviously I'm interested in the new P65+, and expect the HR's to deliver there, too.
Their circle of image is at least 70mm, the new sensor measures 67mm diagonal.
The Rodenstock HR's and the Digitars all are pretty much amazing lenses, definitely better than Mamiyas or Hasselblads! (Can't comment on Rollei as I never used any).
But before investing more again in MFD I simply have to test things myself.
Too much is beeing promised, and actual needs vary.
As for me, the P45+ works great. And as long time exposures are mandatory for me, this might be a deal braker.
Shifting would also be pretty much restricted with my current set (35mm HR, 60mm HR, 100mm HR, 180mm Digitar) on the ALPA SWA.

Until Phase will be able to provide backs for testing, I'm happy shooting outdoors and enjoy nature, even with only 39MP!

Thanks Jost!
I currently use the Sinar eMotion 75 with my Hy6.
My feeling is that the next Sinar back will use the same sensor as the new Phase 65.
And that would be great with the Hy6.

We also have to remember that Sinar is releasing the arTec,
certainly the best solution so far for us architectural shooters.

Time will tell.

WR

Very interesting viewpoint as Phase has an 18 month exclusive.... Will Sinar only have a new back in 18 month from now ?




With a larger censor like the P65+ (image circle 67.5mm) the Sinar arTec with Rodenstock lenses (image circle 70mm) will be absolutely no use at all for architectural photographers who wants shift at wide angles. Maybe they should call the camera landTec for landscape photographers. I think if Sinar would have a larger censor coming, they would not have released the arTec camera with exclusive Rodenstock lenses.

It will be interesting to see what Sinar news will be avalible for Kina

Yes, time will tell if it's the best solution for us architectural shooters, I'm sure it will be for some.

I just hope that you will be able to fit other lenses that allow more shift than the current Rodenstocks do combined with a larger sensor....

/adam

not so fast in conclusions, Toby, concerning the arTec. Instead, may be take some of your time and come to visit us at Photokina to see it with your own eyes.

Best regards,
Thierry

its not the end of the creative phase which rules the atmosphere ( at the moment ) in the rodenstock company.
i am sure that we will see some very welcome surprises @ photokina, these guys are very awake.

and: meanwhile the 24schneider will show vignetting with ff 645 sensors, the 28HR still will allow shift of 4 - 5mm even with the larger sensors. and as i already said ... the lens show will go on,
by rodenstock and ( maybe ) by schneider too.

Dear Rainer,

I am in the middle of buying Rodenstock HR Lenses.
Do you think I should wait?..

thanks

Jeff

Rainer, FYI

New larger Dalsa censor will have image circle of 67.4

With the Rodenstock HR lenses (image circle of 70mm) this equals 2.1mm rise/fall - 1.6mm lateral shift.

Theese numbers are calculated with the ALPA Photographic Calclator:

http://www.alpa.ch/index.php?path=news&detailpage=80


Yes the Schneider 24XL will useless, BUT the 35XL will be a powerfull tool and will equal the Rodenstock 28mm.

35XL (new censor) = 28HR (old censor)

But you might not have any problems at all with the new ArTec / Rodenstock HR if Sinar will not provide a larger censor.

My understanding, correct me if I am wrong, is that it is impossible to use Schneider digital XL lenses on the ArTec because the sliding plate will cut into the glass - this is the main reason to chose Rodenstock retrofocus lenses.

This is very exiting news that Rodenstock will come out with new lenses at photokina.




I am not in this part of the world, but I am sure the ArTec will be an exiting camera with new Rodenstock digital lenses.

hi Toby,

as mentioned many times previously by Rainer and others in different threads here and elsewhere, the 70mm image circle given by Rodenstock is quite "conservative". In fact you will find that it is possible to shift quite a few mm more than the "official" value given in the data sheet.

Best regards,
Thierry

Correct, but what is not mentioned is the dramatic fall in sharpness even at F11 when shifted past the recomended 70mm image circle.

The same is actually true for the Schneider XL24 - but it is hardly recomeded.

I am happy that you silent agree that Rodenstock will have new WA lenses at fotokina (not only the expected 23) with larger image circle to fit your new ArTec camera.

Or perhaps Rodenstock will do a firmware upgrade (on paper changing their conservartive image circle to a larger one), just like the Sinar did with their ISO settings

Dear Toby,


when I say that the image circle of 70mm is conservative, and that in reality you can shift more than what is "officially" given, it is with the knowledge that you can do it WITHOUT significant loss of sharpness at the edge of the image circle.

I have worked with and assisted Rainer Viertlböck, and I can assure you that he is not to type of person using a shift if there is a loss of sharpness: therefore I can confirm what he is saying, that there are still some 4 to 5mm shift possibilities with a larger 645 sensor.


I have little experience with the Schneider, except for my experience that you have to stop them down and can't use them full open without loss of sharpness at the edge, UNLIKE the Rodenstock which are sharp already full open.



May I kindly but firmly ask you not to suggest such?: it is not because I do not answer all and anything in a post that it means that I do confirm what is said. In fact when I keep silent it usually means that I don't know about it or that I do not feel that it is my prerogative to comment.
To suggest in your post that my silence on the subject is an agreement is a little over the top.


Nothing much to comment to such "provocation" than to refer to my technical explanation on the subject of ISO and how it is calculated.

Best regards,
Thierry

in the speification phase i asked for the possibility to construct the camera in a way that the 24xl will be usable on it,- knowing that many colleagues prefer the 24xl over the 28HR or already use it.
sinar affirmed me some days ago that the 24xl can be used at infinity with the artec,- at least in theory ( because they have not tried it out yet, but at least following to schneiders lens specifiactions.)

that there are not ( at this moment ) adapters for the schneider lenses does not mean that the sensor is not closed enough to the rear element to be able to use them,- so anyone can make an adapter for the 24xl, - or sinar will maybe decide to build it in the future.
they have many hands busy now to make the last detail changes on the arTec and to build the "final" arTek for photokina, so i doubt they have much capacities free at the moment for the ( many ) adaption possibilities the camera is inviting for.

Rainer, it sounds very good to be able to use the Schneider XL lenses on the arTec, congratulations and good luck with future development.

I really doubt this, my experience by looking at architectural files made by the 28HR, shows loss of sharpness in cornors not even fully shifted (within the 70mm) at f8 and f11 - and not to forget quite a lot of lens distortion.




Relax, Thierry - I am just teasing you a bit - dont be so serious

May be a bad sample. I have the opposite experience.


I cannot let it written, that someone suggests that I "agree to/confirm" something when in fact I did not say/write a word about the issue. It turns easily into "Thierry has confirmed/announced, etc ..." in the next thread. I prefer to put it straight. Thanks for your understanding.
Others than this I do not feel especially serious.



Thanks and best regards,
Thierry