Yes I wish Leica success, but I'm not so sure anymore. In a way I can't believe they really can pull something like that off. After the m8 disaster. (Yes I have one myself...) If this camera would come to the market with a price around 10.000 it could be a success, as long as the rest holds together. Nobody will buy in such a system if the camera costs 20.000 and every lens is around additional 3000-4000. If that's the case we could already buy Leaf, Sinar or Phase One.

The DMR was a bit more stable than the M8 was on launch at least IMHO - certainly I have not had any trouble with mine and even though people bitched about firmware upgrades it worked fine with the first version and just got better with the upgrades. I did have a problem with my R8 body but then that was used and like 15yrs old. What I hated and I almost dumped Leica over was the 3 month wait to have the R8 serviced for just a shutter problem. That's totally inexcusable. Whatever Leica does, their service system needs a huge overhaul. Professionals who depend on their gear simply can not wait like that. I hope Dr. Kaufmann addresses the service issue in his announcement today.

The nice thing about 2:3 for publication work is when you need the resolution on the larger spread, you don't have to crop. When you're shooting for a single page, you have to crop, but you're not enlarging as much.

if this is the "S2" what was the "S1" ?

Here you have the first picture of the new camera:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/29782425@N08/...015170/sizes/l/

http://photo.net/leica-rangefinders-forum/00GqzV

The DMR must be the reference for this new camera. Except in terms of high ISO performance its archives are still slightly better than the M8 ones. If Leica can make a 35mm size camera with a bigger sensor, an image quality one or two steps above that of the DMR (specially in what is low light performance) and a good set of lenses at a reasonable high price they'll have something. Not something revolutionary but something interesting for a lot of photographers.

I'm curious about the AF because this is something new for Leica (in a pro camera)... Of course I don't expect a D3 AFperformance level but something faster than actual MF and with more than one focus point could make some difference.

Pricing is RUMORED at Euro 25-30,000

Perhaps Leica will be running ads for the new S2 with a Dentist photographing a model while on Safari. That should fit it well if it's anywhere near that price point. Double that price to have some of the lenses.

Very high image quality (i.e. mf d.b.) in a portable body + lens combo is a great addition to the tools available to us but there does come a price point, especially in the current economic climate, where you want the high expense to be more flexible..i.e. usable both as dslr and on a shift camera, as almost all medium format solution currently offer.


The current all in one 35mm dslr solutions work in tandem very well with mfdb's due not only to what they can do but their lower price grouping.
Tying such expense into one system that removes the flexibility of a digital back may or may not be a winner for many.

That said, it can also be seen as a digital version of say a medium format rangefinder such as the mamiya 7 camera..not because it's a rangefinder because of course it isn't, but due to higher than 35mm format image quality in a very portable fairly simple package with exceptional glass.

that said its all still rumour of course!

Well, yes if that is true they don't really have to announce it. There are far better products in this price range.

I bet the Contax guys are going tobe really unhappy if this takes off. All they needed to do was put the Contax back in production.

Edmund

Did the Contax ever have a tilt/shift lens? An ultrawide? This system is a hybrid between focal plane shutter and leaf shutters, which solves the biggest flaw with the Contax system - the very slow flash sync. I suppose Contax could have developed the same way. Blame Kyocera!

agreed - apart from seriously wealthy hobbyists, it wont fly at the same price as an H3 or Phase P45+, which are proven pro workhorses, with higher resolution bullet proof backs and good software workflows, all up and running right now.

if they can come in between US$15-25,000 for camera with standard lens, they might get enough market share.

I'd price the basic outfit well, and then look to make higher margin on the lenses, as everyone's going to buy a couple of those.

Wasn't it you that said they could not make 35mm leaf shutter lens.. And why would they..
I guess this makes my point!!!

Why wouldn't they , has always been my point
Snook

Sorry, everyone, it seems the news feed is on a new thread: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/...nt-22-09-a.html



No, it was me who said Canon would need to revise the EOS mount to introduce leaf shutter lenses. Leica seems to have gone autofocus, larger format and leaf-shutter at the same time, so it was time for a new mount and then they can support every possible feature they need.

what is the foto-z referee guy gonna do now? is this camera 35 or MF? he's in a quandry huh?

and reichmann now has to create a new category called "35 looking, but 120 shooting", next to the ComboCam category?

all this just a bunch of buzz to get in the way of critical thinking and image making.

and with this economy, there couldn't be worse time to ask three or four grand for a normal lens. they just missed the boat; too much, too late.

Why would this be a 35mm camera? We clearly have a new medium format contender, and that doesn't happen every day!

Nobody is going to be upset.

Especially me because not only do my Contax's still work fine, but they have paid for themselves many times over.

The thing is before anyone drops 30, 40, 50 k on a new system there needs to be some clarity.

Everyone gave Phase a ration of trouble for their roadmap, but it was a good idea as long as they lived to the promises and deadlines.

Let's face it, adding or switching a system is expensive and takes a learning curve which takes time which isalso expensive.

Before anyone makes that investment, a company like Rollei, Phase, Leica or Leaf should make it clear they are in this for the long haul and what is promised will be delivered.

Same with service. My Phase backs have never gone down, but I wonder if they can be fixed in a day like MAC does with LOA.

Consequently one of my Leica lenses has been in repair for about 3 months.

The financial events of the last few days make it clear that even the largest of companies can disappear and I doubt if any government would ever bail our a camera company.

JR

You really think this is medium format . . . why because the hole in the back of the camera is bigger than a 35mm?

I think I would call that miniature medium format.

There are a lot of people that don't believe 645 is medium format and in fact except for the new soon to be announced phase pee sixty five plus none of the "medium format backs really qualify as medium format, even the puny 645 format.

JR

I'd put it in the same category as a Phase P30, P18, Sinar 65, Hasselbald 31MP, etc as the sensor is about the same size. Your call.

Your absolutely right...

I would like to meet the bonehead who would spend that much money on this camera..
I know there out there. But they must have a whole lot of extra $$$ lay around.

I am acutally thinking about going back to 35mm....:+}
Where I live they just do not appreciate MF and I could do with out the cost and hassle..

Anybody looking for a P30 /RZII/AFDII set up... check out the For Sale section here soon...

Snook

Miniature medium format.

At least the camera part isn't too big for the digital part.

I don't upset either. I am still using the same Contax 645 body when it first became available and with a P45+ and two more bodies, I am still happy to continue to use it. My Phase or H3D system are of higher resolution than my 1Ds MK3 and M8 but it does not limit me to use the lower resolution system even for work. It is just right tool for right job. The photography is always about the photographer, and he choose his tool, not about the camera itself. Although I believe we all love our cameras.

Sorry, James, I meant the guys who made the Contax

Edmund

The shortcoming of all the 35mm DSLR is the limited DR.

The Leica should have the DR of an MF sensor but with the limited high ISO.

Not too bad IMHO. Lets see what lenses they offer.

It would be the easiest to handle camera with a high-DR sensor (execpt Digiflex).

Bernd

Small correction - that's really a limit of the photosite size, not the size of the whole sensor (or format).

Nothing to do with this Leica camera. But why do hear so many photographers constantly complaining about dynamic range. Top photographers of the last century didn't seem to have too many issues with the 5 f-stop range of transparency film. I've never heard either of the Muench's complain when setting the standard for american color landscape photography.

Digital has so much dynamic range that I have to compress it via curves to get a file that looks exciting and I think most others do as well. I see so much HDR crap, the last thing we need is a sensor that makes that style even easier.

If that is so why are many raving about the DR of the 1DsMIII?
I thought 14 bit was a big difference from the 1DsMII??

Just asking as I have no idea and go by what I have read here. I have never even seen a file from the 1DsMIII.
I am thinking about down stepping back to 35mm as many of my clients just don't appreciate the MF as much as I do..:+} and the cost are obviosly much lower for 35mm.
James seems to be loving his 1DsMIII.
I wonder James how often are yougrabbing tha Contax these days?
what percent of your work is seeing the 35mm these days.

I just looked at some of the 5DII images and the High ISO looks pretty friggin amazing I must say.
All the guys complaining or feeling they got robbed buying the 1DsMIII after the 5DII came out are saying yeh well it shoots slower the AF points are the same as the lcd 5D etc... Well thye have not obviuosly shot MF I take it. the AF is a joke compared to anything else..

I am a retoucher and I notice the differnce bewtween the P30 and the Canon, but is it worth it when half the people in the business print like shit or ruin the image after going through so many hands anyways. I have had many cleints destroy my images and in the end, not so sure I see the differnce in "print" re: BillBoards, magazines and such.

What do you think James?
Snook

As long as you have the sun in your back (=behind you) there are no problems.

When scenes are lit a bit more complicated the way the transition to zones that are out of DR are rendered with a DSLR are just ugly. I hate it.

MF digital made me abandon analog and scanning. Canon wouldn´t have given me what I wanted.

Just my opinion. Buy Canons if you like. You´ve done your job already whilst I´m still mounting my H3D onto the tripod. For me it is worth the effort.

Bernd

Small, light, good af, sharp lenses (hopefully at wide angle, we'll see) a good screen. Sounds great to me. I really dislike holding a medium format camera compared to the canons. (Unfortunately I dislike the image quality of the canons to a greater degree)

Latest from news feed:

"Strategic Partnership with Phase One

Alliance in development and distribution of Leica products"

A very exciting camera so far. Okay now I want to know:

ISO range
Price
Date available
Details on the sensor used
Viewfinder details
Info on lens mount (are any other lenses compatible via adapters)
Does it have live view or movie capability
What's the maximum sync speed on the leaf lenses

And I want to see some sample images!

Not much detail there. And the main question: WHEN WILL IT BE SHIPPING ?

The Hy6 was shown at Photokina 2006, but has only been really viable for the past few months.

Edmund

We will be posting more details about all of the announcements from Photokina soon. If you want a quick peek, take a look at our web site:

http://www.captureintegration.com/

Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
chris@captureintegration.com
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer of the Year

877-217-9870 | National Atlanta / Miami
404-234-5195 | Cell
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Right On!

Anyone think the rumored large sensor Nikon system has any real truth to it? That could smother this Leica baby in the crib.

Photokina News Snippets

Your first source of confirmed Photokina News. Live updates all week.

Phase One and Leica Form Strategic Alliance
The just-announced medium-format Leica S2 will feature sensor, software, and firmware developed by the experienced engineers of Phase One and will be distributed exclusively through Phase One channels. This promises the quality and sophistication of Leica with the engineering prowess and medium-format experience of Phase One.

Capture One 4.5 Pro Release Date set
We’ve had a chance to see the New 4.5 Pro and it is stellar. Release to the public will be October 15. Capture Integration will be hosting the countries first and finest seminars to introduce photographers and assistants to this new professional workflow software. We’ll also be testing it through and through to make sure our customers can put their trust in it.

Check back soon for seminar dates and feature details.

Further Details on the P65+
Aperture & Shutter control with P65+ when used with Phase One 645 and Capture One 4.5.

No need for a mask. What you see in the viewfinder is exactly what you get.

On-Screen Bubble Level for real-time horizon leveling

Two quad-core processors inside the back allow write speeds of up to 133 mb/sec

Sensor was designed and is owned by Phase One; Dalsa is only manufacturing it.

Higher Quality Live View with 4 times the refresh rate (now 5-7 fps

Pixel Binning unlike anything ever seen before. Allows variable resolution and good ISO 1600 performance.

Trade-in deal will be offered for any 22mp (or higher) digital back (including from the competition).

Details to come. Check back soon.

Lower Prices for P30+
The top selling 31 megapixel Phase One P30+ is seeing a price drop. Details soon.

Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
chris@captureintegration.com
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer of the Year

877-217-9870 | National Atlanta / Miami
404-234-5195 | Cell
Sign up for our Newsletter | Read Our Latest Newsletter

Not true at all. My M8 has worked impeccably. Great images and no glitches.

MAS

curioser and curioser, said the white rabbit...

If Phase are getting involved, and at least providing the software solution, then what's up with Mamiya and the ZD, which I would say this is the only direct competitor for.

If Mamiya Phase are planning a ZD2, (which I hope they are) then why are the helping their nearest competitive product into the pro marketplace?

John,
I agree with you when one looks back at some of the incredible photos taken in the past without AF, electronic metering, easy transportation or even film labs to send off film to - hat's off to those guys!

But digital brings a different set of challenges - the recording is linear while film was non linear - so yes DR is important even after application of curves. Digital capture shows the apex of focus more clearly than film too - and well a bunch of stuff.

On top of that we all face the fact that with the internet and TV the world has been just totally saturated with imagery. This makes it hard to come up with something fresh, something people haven't already seen. For that reason I do understand why people use HDR techniques, though I personally find most of them too processed for my taste.

Eric

Sure, there are lots of questions about price, concerns about reliability out of the gate, timing of actual delivery, etc., Maybe they will fall on their face, but personally I think Leica should be applauded. Who else in this space has thrown out the existing blueprint completely and invested the R&D dollars to develop from scratch a brand new professional format camera and a brand new line of lenses to match? I admire companies that think outside the box and invest serious R&D dollars to develop products that meet needs in the marketplace. No repackaging of someone else's sow's ear at four times the price.

I agree - they do seem to have gotten a lot of things right with this new camera. At least as far as we know now.

finally something to break the stupid DSLR/MF mold...i hope we are done with these categories now for good...

this camera is looking better and better: the phase alliance makes a HUGE difference....we all know that capture/mpix is one thing, workflow and color a totally different animal....and i don't think leica would have managed to handle the whole package and make it work....

so we have a camera a little bigger then a 5D, with a very nice size sensor with more mpix i will ever need, with decend AF (i like the way they square it off against H, not canon)....the best digital know how in the market regarding workflow (phase one) and the best lenses available..ever...leica glass....

in order to mix up the market they have to sell it for 12000.....which won't happen mostly because leica wold not even be able to keep up with the orders for years....this is a family owned company after all.....

for 15000 this is still a steal...the Hy6, H31,...are 18000 and are bigger, heavier, slower and probably provide similar quality (bigger chips, less mpix)....BUT THEY ARE PROVEN

the inclusion of phase with this gives it a LOT of credibility IMO.....so it just comes down to price....

and really i am not concerned about the body at all....it is the lenses....a leica T/S 30mm? that has got to be at least 7-8000$....so a nice kit would probably be 20000 just for the lenses....

the m8 is a GREAT camera, but it took more then one year to get things right....and now it ROCKS....i never had any leica lens problems (other then making all other lenses look like s..t)...

too bad the 5DmkII is looking unbeatable and a total no-brainer for the money....

just shot a 10 page editorial with the dsIII (flash at 100 and available (no light really) up to 1600).....full double spreads, even at 1600 at 11x14, i don't see much grain (no noise ninja or such and i really expected to see more....) the camera just shoots and shoots....if the 5D is even better.....the only reason to go with ANYTHING else would be to provide the "dog and pony show" for the client who just does not want their stuff shot with a 2500 camera....

i agree completely...

interesting!

sounds amazing. ISO1600 at full resolution of 60MP or at half or fourth the resolution?

Mamiya already annouced the ZDb with double buffer and nothing new otherwise. While the sensor is the same as an Aptus 22, the ZD back just comes up so short.

Now to this new Leica. I'm impressed!

Oh yeh, CO V4.5 Pro OCtober 15, superb. I look forward to that. I do miss the look I got with CO 3.7, but newer apps have so much more going on now. Keep up the good work Phase and Leica.

Leica could have done the best thing for a long time here. There are just two very important things that hopefully will be answered soon. The price and when it will ship.

This year?
...scnr...

Product pictures British Journal of Photography http://www.1854.eu/2008/09/leica_s2_13_pho...of_the_new.html

Release summer 2009 http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=816234