Really? I think you should ring your Hasselblad dealer and ask about the latest prices..

Nick-T

Nick,

Presenting these new cameras, or actually updates of previous cameras, (except the Leica) is like a political campaign. I think each makers would be better off selling what is good about their own system, but it's impossible not to compare on to the other, even the dslrs.

Phase, historically they make a stable product and they do have the only full frame sensor, though at $45,000 it seems very, very expensive. As far as cameras, until the lenses are out and the new right angle grip the Mamiya 3 seems limited but it also seems to be getting better. The lcd . . . we've all talked the Phase lcd to death and unless they announce something soon, I guess that's just the way it's gong to stay.

With Leaf and Sinar both I like the idea of the Hy6 or Rollei, but the downside is the lens prices, though even Mamiya seems to have high prices on their new lenses so maybe that's just the norm.

Sinar did seem to listen about in camera processing and a better lcd and if they actually can produce a marketing effort and get product on the shelves and in rental it will be much more attractive.

Leaf finally got around to having their back display an image when tethering but it's a shame that it can't be retroactive to their other aptus backs. I think that's a big mistake.

Hasselblad. They have the most seasoned platform and a full range of lenses ready to buy, no waiting. The file format thing makes no sense to me and software that takes a computer upgrade or a new video card also seems like a slight hurdle, but at least the blad is ready to buy and the prices seem pretty good. It's a shame it's not black and it looks like an American Motors Pacer.

I do find it interesting that of all the new medium format annoucements, Sinar, Leaf, Phase, Hasselblad and Leica the prices for most are high, for some much higher, the iso stays the same, which means the real world use stays the same, but when you look at the dslr annoucements from Canon and Sony, they have actually gone much lower in price, higher in iso and both offer 20 something megapixels for $3,000.

JR

Leica S2 digital SLR 30x45mm sensor 37.5 mega pixel in a 35mm style body announced this morning now we are talking.

Terence

I have a question?

What if this rumored Nikon MX is similar to the Leica S2?

It wouldn't be that hard for Canon to do a similar camera as well.

Still Leica has that kudos that is legendary.

Cheers,
Willem.

I'm just guessing . . . actually asking, but given that the 5d2 is the same sensor size as the 1ds3, (for 1/2 the price) and given that sony even has a larger pixeled sensor (also at 1/2 the price) doesn't it stand to reason that very soon their will be a new Canon that has 30 mpx?

I don't know how big the the physical size of the Canon's can go, but their lens mount looks almost as big as medium format.

What would a $7,000 30 something megapixel Canon do to the medium format world, especially if it was larger than 24x36?

JR

Dale Farkas' blog seems to have the most information on the S2 and R10 that I have seen so far. The way the lenses are described they sound incredible (and likely very expensive).


http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/

That lens line-up is very impressive!
Summarit-S 70mm f/2.5 CS ASPH

Summarit-S 35mm f/2.5 CS ASPH

APO-Macro-Summarit-S 120mm f/2.5 CS

APO-Elmar-S 180mm f/3.5 CS

These four lenses will be the first to launch, simultaneously with the camera. The next grouping of lenses will come a few months later.

Elmarit-S 24mm f/2.8 ASPH

APO-Tele-Elmar-S 350mm f/3.5

Vario-Elmar-S 30-90mm f/3.5 ASPH

Elmar-S 30mm f/3.5 Tilt-Shift

Elmarit-S 100mm f/3.5 ASPH

The performance of these new lenses is being heralded as reference class optics with no measurable distortion or vignetting anywhere in the frame, and no software correction needed to optimize the performance. This last part is a certain jab at Hasselblad. MTF charts of these lenses are supposedly totally flat with no drop. Obviously Leica is doing what they do best – making the best optics in the world.


I would love to see the price list!

Cheers,
Willem.

actually the 5DmkII is more like 1/3 of the price with the next gen. sensor....
the dsmkIII is a kind of a hard sale right now and will have to come down in price by the end of the year (when the 5dII ships).....
who says the 1dsIV isn't in the works and goes in the same direction? the 5D/1dsII placement made more sense...they were able to co-exist...the 5dII comes right up to the dsIII and gives a little extra, so canon HAS to come out with something.....and they knew all this, so it will be interesting to see what it will be.....and somehow i don't see a 1dsIV with a 30mpix 24x36 sensor....a larger sensor makes much more sense...

the leica looks amazing, the phase cooperation makes it "real", the lenses will be amazing....

but afaik i will have to wait ONE YEAR for it, even if i want it.....that is a LOOOONG time for canon and nikon, neither of which have announced a new flagship yet.....

My point is it's not like Canon to just totally obsolete their flagship camera overnight, especially one that has been on the market such a short time.

Something made them do it, maybe Sony, maybe Nikon, though I doubt if the Leica or any medium format announcements really got thier attention.

The thing is obviously in the world of cmos and dslrs the sensor is not the defining costs factor, like it is for medium format, because if it was, then the 5d2 would be selling at a loss.

Looking at the $3,000 price of the 5d2, it does make you wonder what type of camera they could produce for $7,000.

Maybe a 36x36 square sensor that goes to multiple formats, from 4:5 to 16:9, including video.

It also makes you wonder if the next flagship camera from Canon will even be produced, given that Sony seems content to offer 24mpx for $3,000. Maybe the 5d2 is the top of the line Canon for the forseable future.

To me, the real 600 lb. gorilla is Sony. With their experience in high end video, their ability to produce their own sensors and the fact that they really are working from a clean sheet of paper with no real user installed base, they could probably offer just about anything in any configuration.

It also makes me think how well the Leica would sell if it was a $10,000 camera vs. a $24,000 camera, but I guess given the fact that it will be sold through normal medium format channels, the prices will not go lower.

I am surprised that the Leica lenses are so slow, nothing in the f2 range, and most 3.5's.

Given that it's a ccd, which means lower iso than cmos, 3.5's are very slow for a lot of work you would expect to do with a camera of those physical dimensions.

Still all of this is conjecture and means very little until all of these cameras get into real world use.

JR

$24000 is that the price of the new Leica S2 ?and those lenses are going to cost an absolute fortune, now we are not even close to talking.
In fact if i am realistic my Nikon d80 has earned me more money than my Leaf Aptus (hey that is probably my fault ) i am much more likely to be lining up for a higher res Nikon or canon 5d mk2.

Terence

Sorry did not mean to include my web page link ,do not even bother looking at it i have not updated it in about 5 months.

Terence

they may very well be "perfect" ...
but that'll probably mean they'll be lacking in personality/character.

... of course some photographic applications require just that.

There is character to lenses and there is a piss poor quality like Canon is offering it on most lenses. (NOT ALL)

sounds, to me, like an applications mismatch.

The presented S2 design has less area than current digital MF - which is
actually cropped 645 - so why pay all that money, when you don't even
get the MF "look".

This compromise design seems a joke. By 2009 when it ships, I bet
Sinar will be announcing a 6x6 Hy6, and those Schneider lenses are ok
too.

Then, by end 2009 I'd say we'll also have a 28 MP Canon with existing-
F:1.2 and F1.4 lenses, existing Zeiss wides, and full HD *raw* video
like Red.

At the moment I finally have my Phase back producing images that look
ok. Even though find I have to use Photoshop CS4 to develop them - we
all have to make compromises And I finally have my junk Epson 9600
cleaned up and churning out the BIG prints. So I'm gonna produce
images for now, and leave the fantasizing about gear for when the inspiration
runs out.

BTW, I find that Adobe CS4 does a really nice job for pushing clarity and vibrance on landscape images. The new ACR is a definite keeper. I've been using it for several months now. Also, about 10MP out of the 39 from the Phase back upsize really well to a full width Epson 9600 44" print. In the end what I find interesting about the MF format is the degree to which the files can be pushed around and cropped. They're like rubber bands.


Edmund

more photos of the S2

http://www.letsgodigital.org/en/20171/leica-s2/

You seem to have something against CCDs. In case this hasn't been shown to you before, Thierry already posted an iso 800 sample from the e75 which is very nice indeed. I can't imagine you need cleaner than that. See http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1683 (Haven't I shown this to you before?)



Btw, did you know the 5D2 has a flash sync of only 1/200?

There are some pretty wild price estimates flying around in this thread, but Mr Kaufmann was quoted as saying they will try to release the camera for under €15K.

I find that hard to agree with, the 35, 50, 85, 135 and 200 L's are all awesome and with the DsIII produce top quality shots..

EXECELLENT!!! A car that looks as good as a Pacer...



Call it the "Mirth Camera"!!!

Party on Wayne!

- Garth Algar

Other than the the 35/1.4, Canon's wide angle lenses would only seem sharp to...

I'd love to see samples of these wide open, and in the corners. I don't doubt that they all perform stopped down but Leica tends to outperform Canon lenses wide open. I've seen samples from the 85, for example, which were not impressive.

All very true.

It all depends on just how willing Canon is to either:

a. Develop an entirely new range of lenses for a larger (36x36? Why not bigger?) sensor - a goodly proportion of the existing EF lenses have rectangular light cutters built in to eliminate flare, meaning they couldn't be used (at full size anyway) on any sensor bigger than 24x36.

b. Develop MkIII versions of existing EF designs to cope with the 50MP 24x36(?) sensors they have been rumoured to be working on.

Canon has proven to be by far the most forward looking of all the manufacturers, as evidenced by your earlier reference to the size of the EF mount. They took an incredible amount of flak back in the late '80s- over 20 years ago! - when they completely broke with the FD mount (something many older Canon aficionados still haven't forgiven them for) and introduced the first completely electronic mount in the EOS/EF. And increased the diameter substantially (for faster lenses, eg. the 50f1.0L, and better AF, were the reasons given back then) at the same time. But no one could argue now that they made the wrong decision!

Interesting times indeed...

Considering the price of the lenses, this still leaves a huge opportunity wide open for companies like Canon and Nikon that belong to the cheap currency world...

The strong Euro is IMHO going to hit this camera really really bad.

Frankly speaking, who is going to invest in a new Leica system at this price point?

- Retrofit backs with larger sensors like the P45 are cheaper and are a lot more flexible since they can be used. You can also have a like new H3D39II at the same price today on ebay,
- Current DSLR are not that far in absolute performance at 1/8 th the price,
- Nikon is rumoured to enter the very same market and will for sure never sell a body above 10.000 US$. I would expect a Nikon entry to be in a different league in terms of usability, even if lenses might be a tad behind...

Anyway I look at it, Leica must be targetting the wealthy amateur market with the S2, and don't see why a working pro would invest in one.

Cheers,
Bernard

nice to see this camera, but its not that revolutionary. just a dslr on steroids.

would have been much more exciting to see one with no mirror box - a straight through lens>sensor path and a pro quality live view digital VF instead.

that way you can get over the hump between 'standard' and 'wide' lenses without that huge gap between primes (note the 70mm standard, next one down is... 35mm - nothing in the 45/50/55mm prime range.)

Leica don't have the depth of digital tech/engineering know how to jump forward to pro live view finder in slr's, that will come from Japan, and when it does, expect a truly new design of pro camera finally be here.

and what if canon makes it in a leica S mount? that would keep the S bodies on the shelf..

I feel that leica has got to keep the price within the desired market.. even if it is a loss leader..this is their couturé line..in the fashion bus. designers know they never hit a profit margin on it.. it is the second lines that they make the bucks on. Leica will never be able to compete dollar for dollar with canon, nor can canon compete overall quality-wise with leica.

Leica is going for the niche high-end pro-market..maybe the top 10%.. but only the top 1%, if that, make the money to go out and buy into a new system just like that.. and this 1% are for the most part are not stupid in the business dept. and buy equipment that works for them on all levels, not because it is the latest, most fab, got-to-have fashion statement..it is a tool of the trade and how it performs or doesn't is critical to our success in the market.

The camera could work for me.. but it has to work financially..and that is the big unknown at the moment.. if I was shooting national ads everyday of the week, every week, then I would just say sign me up, I don't care if it is 15, 20 or 30g..but this isn't the 90's is it?
If it is the best camera in the market it should and will be the most expensive..but by how much..that will determine if this new bit of kit is just eye candy or is something more than a handful of us can work with.

I hope the latter.. cause it would would look great with my Helmet Lang black leather jacket!

i couldn't agree more. what we have seen from leica is an old concept somewhat revamped. kodak sensor+fujitsu electronics+bronica (rumor) lenses+ german panzer (leica) design + phase one software (the best part). no definite specs, zero vision, big price tag (announced before the specs, funny, isn't it?). the real big thing will hopefully come soon, from nikon (or canon, whoever comes first, fine with me).
peter

Of course the way the dollar is going, by the time Leica gets around to rolling this out, €15K is going to be about $50,000...

I better see if my loan from AIG came through.

i like the AIG part

Bronica??

The best part of the system will be the lenses, I hope. We already know what a Phase back can do.

innocent question: what do canon users do wide angle wise? use the nikon 14-24mm with adapter or is there a more generic solution? i am asking because i am thinking of getting a 5DmarkII...+canon lenses.
peter

as i said, just a rumor. but apparently leica bought the bronica machinery to do the lenses and did not start the design from scratch.
peter

It's to early to tell how this will turn out it could be a game changer or a big flop depending on performance and price. The Phase One distribution network and the Phase One electronics and software at least gets Leica a hearing. After the M8 launch no one would shell out 10's of thousands on a totally new untested digital system/format from Leica especially without a pro support network.

Phase back and software and Leica Optics and optical viewfinder have a proven track record that at least on paper sounds incredibly attractive. Combining them in a small SLR package with weatherproofing sounds even better. I'm surprised though that Leica did not have at least one really fast lens like 2.0 or 1.8.

So until we see working products and find out street prices it is to early to tell anything. Still kudo's to Dr. Kaufman for taking such a big risk and trying to really bring something new to the market. I've always liked Leica's so I hope it's a smashing success.

Just some examples:

leica R19mm
Zeiss 21mm
Leica 28 or zeiss 28
leica 35 or zeiss 35
or 35-70 from zeiss or leica

Why should a 20.000 US$ camera need support in the first place?

Cheers,
Bernard

thanks, but i am so spoiled by the nikon autofokus (even use it for wide angle shooting...i know i know...) and i do not like adapters. which canon wide angles would you recommend?
peter

So it seems that there will be a mixture of central shutter lenses and shutterless lenses, contrary to some earlier reports.

* Summarit-S 70mm f/2.5 CS ASPH
* Summarit-S 35mm f/2.5 CS ASPH
* APO-Macro-Summarit-S 120mm f/2.5 CS
* APO-Elmar-S 180mm f/3.5 CS
* Elmarit-S 24mm f/2.8 ASPH
* APO-Tele-Elmar-S 350mm f/3.5
* Vario-Elmar-S 30-90mm f/3.5 ASPH
* Elmar-S 30mm f/3.5 Tilt-Shift
* Elmarit-S 100mm f/3.5 ASPH

(CS designates 'central shutter')

If you don't like adapters you can still use the new Zeiss lenses in EOS mount, such as the 21mm.

you are right. but i tried zeiss wide angles on the nikon D3 and i was not convinced. the 24-24 and 24-70 were equal in terms of quality, or at least not far behind. so do i really have to forsake autofokus on canon if i want to get great quality wide angles?
peter

You can calm down now as there is supposedly a 30-90 zoom lens..
:+}

The M8 had teething issues necessitating 3 weeks minimum return to factory.

Edmund

Same reason $40,000 MF backs need support and lighting systems and camera platforms that are widely available in rental houses tend to be favored. Anything can break down at any time and you can't own everything you might need. If your equipment craps out can your rep get you a replacement same or worst case next day or are you out of business? If you need a $7,000 lens once or twice a year can you rent it or do you have to pay to have it sitting on a shelf most of the time?

The Leica R mount has a registration distance of about 46mm, which is more than the minimum needed for 24x36mm format (the Canon EF mount is about 42mm). So it might be possible to use the same registration distance despite the extra 6mm of mirror height (30mm vs 24mm). Especially with a fancy mirror mechanism, like that of the Sony A900: the extra mirror depth is only about 4mm when the mirror is angled for use.

In fact, I speculate that the reason for Leica using 30x45mm rather than the 33x44mm of other Kodak sensors is for backward compatibility with the Leica R lens mount. If so, we might at last get a test of the idea that telephoto lenses often have "oversized" image circles, big enough for use with somewhat larger formats: Leica R telephotos might work on S bodies with no need for cropping.


And I agree with a post above: one very intriguing fact here is Leica producing NINE new lenses all at once, way ahead of the pace of Rollei and Hy6 with AF lenses.

To me, I am thrilled by the Leica only because it will prompt Canon and Nikon to follow.

I knew it was doomed when they brought out Wim Winders to introduce it. Show me someone who earns their living with it and I am impressed.

3 huge problems

1 USB on a 35mp camera. Obviously tethering isn't an option(Doctors and Lawyers won't mind though) 80% of the pro market uses mac and usb is not an option. Why not fw800 and will be fw 3200 by the time it's released?
2 Multi point af. Here was their chance to separate themselves from the pack and they came up short.
3 Slow lenses. The last pro mf camera to launch with this slow of a normal lens was the RZ in 1763! Mamiya has a 1.9, contax and hassy have f2 and 2.8(hassy V and H also have f2 lenses), leafnar has a f2 as well with it's main lenses being 2.8 and these leica lenses don't even have shutters in them.

Great idea but was a single pro consulted in it's specs?

Hi,

I think that Leica competes not with Canon but with Hasselblad and Mamya/Phase One on this one.

Canon is weak on wide angle optics. Leica has obviously problems with pricing, but they are in many senses in the same market as Hasselblad, another small european company.

Don't forget that the price of the Leica includes a digital back!

Best regards
Erik

Don't forget that the price of the Leica includes a digital back!

Best regards
Erik

[/quote]


Your are very right.. a lot of people have over looked that and it is almost 40 megaPixel one at that.

I guess the difference is that is it permanetly inside the camera..

If I have the extra cash flow, I would by one. Would have to down grade my porsche.

Let's see how it all pans out in the next 2-3 years. Maybe the Nikon MF wil come out before hand and force them to lower the price..:+}
Snook

I guess this camera falls into the medium format range, which puts a smile on my face since it doesn't look like medium format it looks like a 35mm dslr, though I'll admit a very pretty dslr.

Still, it fits all the criteria of medium format in that it's expensive, is sold mainly through specialized dealers, the lenses are on the slow side and the price is probably going to be double of anything that comes out of Japan.

Oh yea, it's ccd and since I've owned 10 professional ccd cameras and not seen one go past 400 iso clean I have to assume this will be the same as the others. Maybe fotz is right and Theirry's 800 iso images for the Sinar 75 are clean at 800, I'll believe it when I use it and since I've never seen a Sinar with the batteries charged I guess that test will have to wait.

The thing I find most interesting is the way these cameras are introduced and marketed in relationship to how the Japanese introduce and market their cameras.

None of us know when, what, where, how much the Leica will costs, how well it tethers, if the lcd works when tethering, if it has live view, if all the lenses will be available at once, or if this will be like other Photokina medium format announcements that take 2 years before they are finally on a dealers shelf.

In comparison the 5D2 and the new Sony are already in photographers hands with samples bouncing all over the web.

I am fascinated by how slow the lenses of medium format have become. Everything seems to be in the 2.8 to f4 range which is a buzz kill considering that Leica, Mamiya, Rollei had a lot of fast lenses in the past.

Did someone from Profoto and Broncolor tell the world of medium format that everyone shoots studio strobe, so forget about continuous light and short depth of field.

I guess techtalk was right when he/she said "-but tomorrow's announcements will be of the evolutionary advancement type."

JR

P.S. Now the first annoucement I would like to see from photokina is that Thomas Knoll will meet 5 photographers in Milan, that will shoot every digital camera out there next to their film counterparts and hand off a digital file and a about 20 different films, in 20 different scenes/subjects and ask him to please make presets to make all of these files look like any of these films. Just like the fcp and aftereffects plug ins that have Michael Bay Yellow, we could have Paulo Roversi polaroid, Ansel Adams zoned black and white, Terry Richardson saturated, etc. etc.

Now the second announcement I would like to see is profoto brings back their hmi lighting. Those things are the bomb and allow you to shoot continuous and flash with the same style modifiers.

Of course to use the hmi's you need higher iso.

I agree with Rogan. Let's don't put rich cats in suits telling us they "talked" to professional photographers so they could make the best camera in the world". Put these things in the hands of people that shoot for a living and let them knock the paint off of em. Then they'll know what is really needed.

That is something that Nikon and Canon are very good at. They put their early pre production cameras out there in working situations, way before they ever go on sale.

Canon could have fooled me with regard to giving them to working pros. I don't know about the 1ds mark 3 but the mark 2 was a total dog to shoot tethered, the software was horrible and the stupid thing had to go back to the factory every 4 months to get the firewire port replaced.

Take a look at Capture Integration's front page. We will be updating our site as the information flows in from Photokina.

http://www.captureintegration.com/

Chris Lawery
Sales Manager
chris@captureintegration.com
Capture Integration, Phase One Dealer of the Year

877-217-9870 | National Atlanta / Miami
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I'm betting that the Leica mentality was about MTF Charts, and Sharpness -- not about actually having to shoot a job as the sun is setting, but the client is yelling for one more setup before you stop for the day.

It must be much easier to make a jawdroppingly sharp lens if the fstop is slower -- thus, we get the slower lenses.