boy I thought still-life photographers were staid...

Look, I have not handled the camera so I am only a looker like the rest of us.. I have used their r9/dmr for the past 3 years and have found the camera the best 35mm camera I have ever shot with.. but I never said or would say it is "uncomparable" nor would I describe myself as "hysterical", as you are implying in your statement.
I hope you have found in your career some equipment you have been really happy with, bonded with, tools which used day in and day out mold to you like a custom made leather shoe.. call me weird but I have an affinity with some of my cameras.. I still have a technika that I can't part with because it was part of my style at one time..more than just an optical devise to capture light.. it helped define me as a creative photographer and was an intregal part of the experience of photographing, something which is often lost in the day to day life of a commercial photographer shooting the same old box on white seamless or the same old box on the street corner. As silly as it seems, a new camera or process can shake you out of that bland rut and reignite the passion, .. passion not hysteria. even still-lifers can have it.

Does anyone know if it uses an AA filter?

The Don King School of Marketing.

undoubtedly some teething problems, but with Phase behind it, there wont be the same mess as there was with the M8. I expect that (digital) bit to be very good.


agreed Mamiya 7 amazing - we need the ZD2 badly with Phase input
agreed 35mm shape is an error on Leica part - its not a press camera - they made the mistake of keeping a 'traditional' format when they were claiming to be 'new'

also single point AF - a big disappointment- Leica just don't have the expertise to handle multi point AF and compete with the Japanese producers

Those so called Dentist better be buying a lot of HD's to back up all those pretty shot's of teeth..:+]
Snook

Before anyone gets to excited about the Phase relationship:

Checkout the Leica interview on Calumet's website:

http://www.calumetphoto.co.uk/photokina?t=CM02&a=CM02

Well known Leica dealer David Farkas (Dale Photo) has an interesting blog from Photokina folks may want check out re: the deal and a hands-on with the S2 (looks sweet).

BUT, there is a LOT (and I mean a LOT) of apparent confusion and miscommunication surfacing between Leica's version of what is happening, Phase's version and each firm's communications to their respective dealer re: relationship:

- Phase indicates Phase tech inside, yet multiple Leica Execs openly state to various interviewers, dealers that it's 100% Leica, Phase relationship started after S2 fully developed and depth of relationship is still very nebulous.

- Phase understands exclusive sales channel, yet Leica (non-Phase) dealers advertising the S2 and taking pre-orders.

- It goes on...

There are also some threads on www.getdpi.com that also discuss/debate/express frustration over the issue.

I'd put a question mark beside the depth of the Phase involvement/support until better and more coherent information from both parties emerges.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SyDAimzFnU - A decent Imaging Resource video from Photokina showing the size of the S2 and rear LCD.

http://www.s.leica-camera.com/ - flash presentation

http://dfarkas.blogspot.com/ detailed report - viewed DNG's in Lightroom from prototype. Also comments on the shutter/mirror noise. Shows it sat next to a Nikon D700 for size comparison.

paul i was not referring my leica critic to you. sorry if i was implying this,- i even wasnt conscient that you shoot with a R9.
i used in my film days several leicas too, aside my linhof 4x5 and 6x17 cameras,- and i liked them a lot especially cause i liked their "feel". but there was some attitude in certain leica forums which was so elitist that i couldnt stand it.
btw.: similar than several months ago the one or other mf contra 35mm treat, there was some talk that a "real" professional or even a real quality demanding photographer needs to use mf tools for it, as if there wouldnt enough great photos shot with 35mm cameras, if thge photographer i a great one. ( beside the funny 35mm users who needed to convince themselves in 1000 posts that there is no need to use mf gear ). i hated all this attitudes and allways thought they are wrong, arrogant and stupid.
( pls. note that i am not referring to you or even to any of the active posters which are here in LL/ Mf at the moment - seems so that most of these guys already have found other places to enjoy.)

Okay, I misread you, seems that since I started shooting with leica I have heard way too much talk about only doctors and lawyers shoot with it..I have always came to the defense of the professional quality the camera has..and now it looks they have a real player in the professional market with the S2. I know a lot of guys have the m8 as a secondary camera but very few use it as their main camera system and in this day and age of AF the r9/dmr is oldschool.. but so am I and for a small camera, one you can easily hand hold, it suits me but I always had to go to my mfdb/ rolleiflex or xact if I needed something better..the S2 camera would make redundant the rolleiflex and r9/dmr. but I would still need a traditional view camera.

What is interesting is the degree of preparation of Leica at Photokina . The stand area Leica is occupying is huge. The S2 area is like a luxury clinic, with VIP backstage passes issued to you, smiling receptionists and a wait in a reception area with a drink until your personal demonstrator is free. This is clealry a first class professional PR operation.

Concerning the S2 itself, again the degree of preparation is considerable. The bodies don't look like prototypes, they feel like production models. The finish is impeccable. My impression is that mechanical tooling is in place, and the production line for the body mechanics and lens mechanics is being used already for what are called prototypes.

As for the product itself, pricing will be based on the equivalent Hasselblad (same MP) I am told. Lenses are still being developed, in particular a fast portrait lens. Leica definitely see this as a carry around camera, built for hard weather and knocks.

My own impression is that the camera and its lenses feel too large. This is not a lightweight by any standard. In the end, I think the S2 will stand or fall based on its high ISO ability, and the quality of the AF. In any case, I'm pretty sure that production is going to get ramped up competently, and the body price will be almost affordable.

Edmund

I just wish to say as much:

Jenoptik has not "done so" for the Leica S2, which is a 100% Leica "in-house" development.

Best regards,
Thierry

Thierry,

If this is the case, what exactly does Leica need Jenoptik for?

And now that you are in clarification mode, would you please be so kind to comment on this posting of mine: http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....ndpost&p=224140

EPd,

I guess this should be asked to Leica directly, isn't it? My role is to put things straight when somebody speaks about Jenoptik, especially if not right, not explaining Leica's needs and strategies.


May be the same answer as above: ask F&H concerning your post. I have given the information I (Sinar) have about the different products available or to come.

Best regards,
Thierry

Maybe Leica is using Jenoptic's services for projects other than the S2? R10, lower priced rangefinder are just two projects rumored to be in the works. Could it also be possible that Leica did the design but needs help with manufacturing?

Thierry,

Let me rephrase my question then: what exactly is Jenoptik doing for Leica? (So I'm not asking what Leica wants, but what Jenoptik is offering.)

And as for my other question: does this cable release for the Sinar Hy6 have mirror lockup or not? You have it in your booth at Photokina, so perhaps you could simply check? I already know what F&H has to say, but I would rather not be in the way of your prerogatives here since the cable release does not actually come from F&H.

Have some nice days overthere in Cologne!

EPd

EPd,

I have nothing to add to what I have said, otherwise I would have said it by now.



The cable does not have a classical mirror-lock-up, HOWEVER:

- when used in "ultra-fast mode", a push down locks the mirror up (and prepares all functions) and releasing the knob then releases the camera.
- in normal function, the cable release does activate the AF with the first push, then release.

Best regards,
Thierry


Thanks EPd, we do have very nice days, even if busy. Such an exhibition as Photokina is always a nice time, definitively, being it only to meet some people you have not seen for a long time.

Best regards,
Thierry

From David Farkas' blog, about Hasselblad lenses:



http://www.dfarkas.blogspot.com/

.

I think people are forgetting that lens design requires balancing the distortions and aberrations that the laws of Physics dictate. Perhaps the designers of these lenses decided to allow more distortion, which they know they can correct in software, in order to better control another aberration they cannot correct.

David Farkas:

Speaking of fishy… in the pro demo studio area a photographer and food stylist were photographing smelly raw fish. With large LCD suspended from the ceiling for the audience to watch the action top-down it felt more like a cooking show that a photo demonstration. The concept was interesting, but the smell was a bit much.

Obviously this guy is an ignorant. Why do I say that? Because ignorants are so sure of their own truth that they don't even do a little research before they shot.

The fish thing is related to the video shooting (Operation Food) they have had on the Victor website for more than a year.

This type of practice is called good marketing.

Some Swedes do love their surstromming.

I hope It wasn't that what they were shooting there!

Is there a MSRP or "Street Price" List for the Leica S2 Camera Body, Lenses, Etc. posted yet?

Thanks,

Joe

With an August 2009 delivery goal, I doubt any price now would be worthwhile for many reasons.

I found $45,000.00 for the body only, from Wired:
http://blog.wired.com/gadgets/2008/09/leica-s2-reinve.html

And a much better story here, and a stab at $30K
http://www.imaging-resource.com/NEWS/1222235975.html

seriously.

Before every photokina the process has always been a flurry of press releases, then during the show a new batch of new press releases about strategic alliances with not a lot of new working product being shown, then months go by and the answer is check with your dealer who will give you a lot of second hand information about what, when, where, how much, how soon, etc. etc. etc.

Then the airwaves go dead for a few more months.

If Photokina got you hot to buy, you couldn't get most of it today though I'm sure everybody will take a "deposit".

What a wasted sales effort.

I get the impression that Photokina is just a place all the makers and dealers meet to cut deals and except for hasselblad, the only deals anyone cuts is with each other. I think they'd sell more product if they thought about cutting those deals to the end user. Maybe Hasselblad is on to something, but knowing the world of medium format the competition will probably just repsond by making a new series of e-mail blasts and pdfs.

It's like a celebrity photo shoot where the photographer, makeup artist, hair stylist and subject are all the stars. Everybody tosses out names, talks about the "industry" says how fab everything is but at the end of the day, they forget they are selling bras, jeans, or shoes.

The process IS the event and becomes more important than selling the actual product.

Consequently Saturday I was at a small sized camera dealer, (I'm talking a one counter store) and it was packed with people buying Nikon D300's and lenses. And not just the cheap lenses either, but those new Nikon zooms and the 200 F2. Every person was leaving with gold boxes under their arms and if the Canon 5d2 was for sale I'm sure their would have been just as many black boxes going out the door.

If this is a down economy you wouldn't know it by watching the activity in this small store.

One of the customers was a ceo of a large corporation and and it didn't seem money was an issue. He asked about the Leica and the dealer just said it's not available for at least a year, he asked about the hasselblad and the dealer said they don't carry them. I doubt if he knows the name Phase, Sinar or Leaf. So he bought a D3 and a bunch of lenses and he did this in about 10 minutes. About $18,000 in ten minutes.

JR

Maybe just a false security as they seem have bailed out the corporate bone heads who screwed everything up.
If congress would not have bailed them out, I am not so sure so many tiny gold boxes would have been flying out the dorr..:+}
Snook

Kaufmann said "we will try to be at less than 15.000 euros".

Leica told me they would try to match Hassy on price, at equivalent pixels.

Edmund

Well, nobody got bailed out today; maybe that, too, is just another mind-game...

Rob C

What, you're miffed that America's little excursion into socialism has been delayed ?

I thought we in Europe had a lock on socialism now that the soviets and china have given up on it.



Edmund

The price point that Leica says it would like to meet---a Hasselblad with comparable MP--- would be the price of a Hasselblad H3DII-39, which has now been educed to US $22,000. By way of comparison, the Phase/Mamiya camera with a P45+ back is $32,500, the Leaf AFI 7 is $37,500 (or $38,800 with a 90 deg. finder), the Sinar Hy6 with 33MP back is $32,000(price of 90 degree finder=????). I wonder if the Leica CEO was thinking of the "old" price of an H3DII-39.

The price of the Hasselblad H3DIII-31 is 12.000 euros.

Considering the last (reduced) prices of Hasselblad prices, Leica should place the S2 price between 10.000 and 15.000 euros.

There's been a lot of ranting about high priced Leicas, MFDBs and dentists etc...

Do you think Leica might actually realise that there are a LOT more people who will buy a high end camera purely as a status symbol (think Rolex demographic) than there are professional photographers who can justify a 50K+ camera purely on ROI criteria?

One of the 'eye openers' on one of my recent workshops was the gear owned by some of my clients, in this case a dentist (really) and an ad agency owner. They had all the best gear, and I mean all. Between them they had well over 200K in gear - H3D2-39s, D3s, 1Ds3s. M8s and loads of lenses. They were interested in photography, had the money to indulge themselves and like to own 'the best' stuff. Nothing wrong with that.

I had no camera with me, apart from a loan 1Ds3 in case of breakdowns, and my co-instructor had a Mamiya Press (!).

I say 'so what' if a camera costs a bucketload of cash? Buy it if you can afford it, don't if you can't. Pros do not need the best, they need the most appropriate for their business - the right gear is not necessarily the best gear.

I wonder if there is a forum for taxi drivers bemoaning the prices of the latest BMW, whilst they drive Fords.

I'm guessing that since the S2 is 37.5mp, Leica is looking at the H3DIII-39 as their pricing benchmark.

I hope that Phase and Leaf are paying attention...

The H3DIII-31 has the same sensor size than the S2 (more or less).

I expect Kodak and Dalsa to offer their new 6 micron pixel technology in the smaller 44x33mm formats too, producing about 40MP (7333x5500) sensors similar in size and production cost to the 45x30mm sensor of the S2. And Kodak will probably equip its new 44x33mm sensors with micro-lenses, as in its current 44x33mm sensors and the new 45x30mm for Leica.

Then the S2 will probably compete with new 44x33mm models, at least on production costs and sensor performance. But the Leica S system might have a big advantage from its better match of lens format and focal length choices to sensor format, compared to using a 44x33mm sensor with a lens system adapted to 56x42mm or even 56x56mm.

That is a good point.

The price differences between formats will not be too large in any case, but sensor size and lenses format make a difference for sure.

I like the S2. It is very simple, and might just be fun to use. I'm fairly certain that it will do my usual print size with no effort (40x30"). And the Leica cakes at Photokina were really good.

In the end, Leica, Hasselblad, Sinar, Phase, who cares ? It's all about the images ...

Edmund

It would be kinda interesting to see what kinds of images would come out with that workflow, ie. Canon lens, Canon CMOS, Canon LCD, P21+ at point-blank. The sensor is smaller than the LCD, so there would be a crop factor

No AA filter.

I don't think this will be the case. First of all, different CEO, and the new one is also the owner, and had to go through the pain of fixing everything which went wrong.

Secondly, the rangefinder in the M cameras is an ancient, mechanical wonder made by gnomes under the mountains in fairytale land, and the lenses move the focus via a shaped metal ramp, a little off-center wheel, a metal arm, and a multiple of other tiny components, any one of which can be knocked out of alignment by a mild bump. I love my M8 and those lenses are to kill for, but I would love a better, more stable focusing system. The S2 won't repeat this weird setup. And don't forget, Leica invented autofocus (I am pretty sure). They dropped it because they thought their customers wouldn't want it. Boy were they wrong, but that was back then.

Thirdly, while Leica has been very adamant that the S2 is 100% Leica, Phase One and Jenoptik are not there for show only. Leica is expanding like crazy, bringing all the Solms people and buildings back to Wetzlar where it all started, buying up little German specialist companies and integrating them in Leica, and they are really ramping up for something big. The new German-born owner is one of the richest people in Austria, and is a dyed-in-the-wool Leica fanatic himself, so you know his heart is in this, and not in the stock price or somesuch. My personal guess is that Phase One and Jenoptik are consulting with Leica. Things backfired with the DMR and Imacon, so this time, I am certain that there are behind-the-scenes deals about what Leica does and does not market, and this time they want to learn how to do everything themselves, to avoid the DMR firmware debacle. Phase One is apparently getting Leica lenses for the Phamiya, so you know that Leica and Phase aren't joking. That is serious IP there, and Leica has never gone so far before (Panasonic doesn't count here; another class). This isn't just about Capture One.

I guess none of us are old enough to remember this, but Leica was at the top of the heap some decades ago. Such memories (and losses) live long in the German psyche, and I do believe that it is Dr. Kaufmann's intention to get Leica back on top.



Given how closely the Leica news were guarded up until the last few days this time, I am pretty sure that they did not tell us all their spectacular news 9 months in advance of the first product. They are incredibly secretive at the moment, and this pre-announcement just doesn't fit that pattern. I suspect two things: first of all, Dr. Kaufmann stated on the record that the price (sadly I don't know if this is for the kit or the body) would be between 10.000-20.000 Euro, and that they hope to keep the price below 15.000 Euro. He would never say that unless they were almost positive that they can keep the price below 15.000 Euro, IMO, but maybe they are in fact intending to shoot for 10K? That would be a real coup, and in line with the rest of the news. Secondly, I expect that they have been holding back on lens specs, to see what the reaction would be. I suspect that they will throw in a couple of real pearls at release.

I do believe that the real intention here is to show the world that, given a clean sheet, Leica can out-design the rest of the world, including companies like Hasselblad. The R+DMR was hampered by a lineup of manual-focus lenses and a body designed for film, plus a lack of funding. The M8 was hampered by a brilliant lineup of expensive lenses which throw the light at the sensor at very oblique angles. The S2 will have no such issues. Given Leica's love of the simple and direct, I expect that this camera will be a joy to use, and will spawn a whole new generation of super-annoying Leica fanatics. I hope to be one of them.

I don't know if they will succeed, but this is what I think they are trying. Good luck to them!

Ah, I forgot to mention, Leica appears to be taking a different direction with these lenses, one which may mean that they can manufacture them cheaper than in the past. For one, they are re-using optical and mechanical components in various lenses, and secondly, there are no crazy 50mm f/0.95 or 21mm f/1.4 lenses here, just solid, useful designs. We'll see.

wow carstenw, that was some speech, discourse or whatever.. my right arm kept involuntarily going up in the air.. I think you see this as I do.. red and black are destined to have new meaning.. long live the red dot.

What I like about the S2 is its simplicity.
I expect the S2 will be joined quickly by a 35mm brother.
Leica told me they have a fast portrait lens under design.

What remains to be seen is whether the S2 can really make better images than the 5DII on location. This is not obvious at all.
The Canons have a super-fast sensor, a very complete AF system, and some fast lenses that are world class (85/1.2).

At the moment I'm using a Sony TG3E video camera as a still device, and the ease of use, tele lens and stabilisation are frighteningly good - competition for existing devices may not come from the obvious places.

Edmund

that saved my day...and I'm german

Well said Carsten

HA HA! Wow, that is what I was thinking. Do you think someone will INFORM if they see I cover the RED and BLACK of the Leica crest on my M4P and M6 with electrical tape? I just want to keep my nose clean under the new regime.

5DII: 14 bits per pixel, AA filter, 24mm x 36mm, 22 MP, lens quality roulette
S2: 16 bits per pixel, no AA filter, 30mm x 45mm, 37.5 MP, lenses with MTF "curves" hugging the top of the MTF chart.

Hmmmmm.....

5DII on Location: Just Works. The tool gets out of your way.

S2 on Location if its anything like the M8: Shoot for a while, have a problem tethering, stop. take out teh battery, try to tell the talent jokes, self deprecating remarks as the client comes over and asks "Is there a Problem?" Camera unlocks but now all images are green tinted, and the blacks are magenta. At this point you pull out the Canon 5d2 and finish the job, the client gets the images and doesn't know the difference.

That's why the question was which one would do a better job "on location".

I am not, although I *am* living in Berlin. I am a Leica fan though, borderline annoying, and I do believe that this company, with this management, will be able to pull off something non-trivial. They have done it before, and of course, it helps having the world's best lens designers under your roof. This is one reason Mamiya et al will never really be able to pull away from the rest. Their lenses are good, but not better than anyone else's. In the end it is all about the lenses. Sensor tech is already stabilizing slowly, like film did once upon a time. Workflow is the wild card, I suppose. Erm, and reliability

Then how about getting some field reliability data instead of making assumptions? If I were to assume all Canon lenses performed as well as the ones I'm familiar with, I'd be shocked that anyone would want to use them at all (obviously my samples were sub-par). The S2 and the M8 are entirely different, developed by different teams under different management. I believe that an assumption regarding the usability of one based on early samples of the other is simply prejudicial. The numerous prototype S2 cameras on hand at Photokina exhibited no problems despite being handled and used by hundreds of Photokina visitors.