See, they announced a 100/2.5 or 100/3.5, depending on the source, non-CS, but that just makes no sense to me. If they want to beat the world, they have to take on lenses like the Zeiss 110/2, and this means, for this sensor, a 100/2, at least. I believe that they will shoot for this, or better.

I have absolutely no doubt that the image quality of the S2 is going to fantastic. My concern is about service. There are few shops that can deal with even the older cameras and I hear they haven't done any training to independent shops for anything modern. I took my r8 into a local shop with a sticky mirror - guy couldn't do it so sent it in to Leica. 3 months later I had my camera back - not repaired! Had to send it back in to leica directly and waited two more months. Yes I didn't have a back up but bought one immediately second hand, but it had an exposure metering problem and didn't mate well with my DMR and would have to have focus calibrated so sent it back. That was frustrating and while my DMR was sitting there waiting for the body to come back I contemplated selling it several times and probably should have. But the DMR images sing and its a joy to use - just a pleasure to work with however I wouldn't consider using it as my only camera and typically only bring it along with another camera to a shoot. After having this experience with the DMR and reading everyone's experiences with the M8 I doubt I'll buy the S2 or will wait at least until its been out for a while and proven. Carsten, I don't blame you for being a Leica loyalist, but thinking its going to be different this time seems overly optimistic. Even Canon has issues with some of their cameras on launch. The 1Ds2 lost files, and there have been all kinds of focus issues.

The great thing about the DMR and the M8 was that there were tons of used lenses out there all of which were really high optical quality even the older ones. That made getting into a system more affordable and less risk. No doubt the S2 lenses will be great, but what are they going to cost? $3k each, $5k each or more? I can easily see higher. That's my second concern - cost.

You can go get a RZ kit now with a whole set of lenses for like $5k for everything. I picked up 2 PQ lenses and an extender for my Rollei for $400 and these will work fine on the Hy6/AFi I just can't imagine that the leica glass is going to be that much better to make it worth it. When you compare the leica 35mm format lenses to canon it's pretty obvious how much better they are, but MF has a lot of very high quality systems and I don't think the differences will be all that great. Currently it appears that quite a lot of my Rollei lenses are out resolving my sensor - so another question is would you be able to see it anyhow? I hope it turns out to be everything we are lead to believe, but until its real and we've seen some samples I'm going to remain a skeptic.

I don't consider myself a Leica loyalist, nor an apologist, and I find it incredibly frustrating to watch Leica's service train crash in slow motion, but the signs coming out of Solms are different these days, it would be hard to miss. I think that they are taking this way more seriously than we are guessing, from top to bottom. I don't expect perfection, but I do hope for, and expect, a system which one can live with, and no multi-month waits.

By the way, there are rumours of a Leica pro service which isn't advertised that well, where one gets better service. Have you looked into this (and by looked into, I mean asked someone at Solms, not New Jersey)?

Yeah, I heard this too.

A Leica brochure was just delivered to my mailbox. Beautifully produced for the commercial part. Wonderful detail of the system. Mediocre sample images, sample layout and bad prepress color work. Blocked shadows, bad color, no detail.

Edmund

Of the S2?

Brochure of the whole system, including S2. Images from *existing* cameras.
I like all the Leica imagery & layout a lot, but not the sample imagery.


Edmund

I did ask them about it at Leica NJ but they sort of just ignored questions regarding a pro service. Either I'm not special enough for them or they didn't have such a program. Leica NJ is operating in the past - I mean way past - Some three weeks after I sent in my camera (foolishly by Fedex thinking this would speed things up) I received a regular snail mail estimate of what the camera would need - with the expectation that I would happily complete this form and return it by snail mail authorizing the repairs so they could begin work. And I guess since they knew the letter was coming they felt they didn't need to return any of my phone calls or emails inquiring what the status of the repair was. It was clear they did not begin work right after receiving this authorization because it took about 2 months more to get the camera back. Not sure if I mentioned this but even Rollei/Hensel service in NJ can e-mail me a complete estimate in pdf which I can authorize the same instant. Of course I can also do this easily over the phone. Onick at Rollei Hensel is awesome - at one point he even mentioned to me that he would check on my leica for me since he knew some of the people over there (both shops are in the same area). Leica on the other hand was hit and miss even trying to reach either by e-mail or phone. Leica service is just totally unacceptable. Forever to fix, no communication, antiquated methods, and apparently vastly understaffed.

Leica Solms seems to be expanding and rehiring old employees. I think they will have an ok service system within a few months.

But in the end, nothing can beat a 5DII, with a 5DII backup

Edmund

Erm, right, this is why you hang out in a MF forum, right?

Thierry

Yes, Thierry, I find that Canon CPS has the best lend and repair program.
My Mamiya has problems, I paid for a VA on the Phase back, but my dealer sees no reason to lend me another camera for the three weeks it takes to repair a Mamiya from France. It takes one day to repair it in Germany. My dealer - Le Moyen Format in Paris - is history as far as I'm concerned. I'll have the camera adjusted when I'm in Munich or Tokyo. And the next camera I am buying is a 5DII. I've had enough of the MF dealer system.

Edmund

Yes, we are all idiots in here. Enjoy your AA filter, mushy lenses, slow flash sync, small viewfinder, brittle files, 'Canon' colour, 8.5 stops of DR, 'only' 21 MP, 2:3 aspect ratio, poor tethered performance, limited tilt/shift options and who could forget the direct print button

Edmund,

Hearing/reading you one could believe that MF is "evil". I can assure you that they are good guys/dealers as well as bad guys. I don't know "Le Moyen Format" in Paris, but I remember that at the beginning you very highly speaking about them, if I'm right. And as far I could understand from other Phase dealers, that's not the usual experience with Phase dealers nor with Sinar dealers. I am sure that if your request would be justified (to get a free loaner) and you have a VA on it, you should get it: otherwise it is a breach of contract, isn't it?

Well, with Sinar you don't need a VA, we usually are flexible enough, when justified, to help customers out of trouble situations.

Best regards,
Thierry

It's a perfectly legal point of view. Only the back has the VA warranty on it. So I'm only entitled to contractual warranty on the Mamiya - oh, but Mamiya happen not to be able to service a shutter in France anymore, and returns have to go through the shipping of the local distributor and that takes three weeks. Too bad, then. The dealer system is fundamentally flawed, except for the guys in Atlanta. I've just shot multiples for a few months now, to make sure I have the shot when I need it.

Edmund

I wish Leica everything good. Every new camera on the market is good to everybody. There is nothing better that competition. But this time - P L E A S E B U I L D camera that we can take a picture in the day that we can buy it. Don't repeat mistake that you do with M8 !!!

Freak

Frank, with all due respect to you, didn't you hear that they are in partnership with Phase, so this is quite norm.

"That's why we, at Leica camera, are investing heavily in professional customer service and new sales concepts. By the way, we're doing this, working closely with our new corporation partner Phase One. So Leica camera is establishing itself for the long term with the S System in the professional segment. You, the professional photographer, want the perfect picture. We, we've created the perfect tool for you."

Dr. Andreas Kaufmann

I think it will be interesting to see what shakes out of this.

Mike.