For your information:

Sinar has announced today a new integrated MF digital camera system, the Sinar Hy6-65 (31 MPx) and a new camera + digital back, the Sinar Hy6 - s65r, respectively the Sinarback eSprit 65.

----> http://www.sinarcameras.com/site/index__0-...29-50-2168.html

The main characteristics:

1. Sinar Hy6-65

- Fully Integrated MF camera system: with optimized communication between lens, camera body, digital engine, and software.

- On-Board image processing with internal "QuadCore Image Processing" (QCIP technology): First digital medium format cameras with completely integrated digital image processing on board.

- Future-oriented data storage: The high-speed data transfer of the Sinar Hy6 65 and Sinar Hy6-s65r allows for capturing images at fast capturing rates and storing them to CF card in DNG and JPEG formats or a combination of them .

JPEG images can be stored in 4 different file sizes and two compression rates. Thus, one is able to send low-resolution JPEGs to the art director or agency immediately after the shooting and process the selected high-resolution images later on.

- 3" bright display with 640 x 480 pixels (280 ppi), with automatic menu orientation, Images, histogram, sensitivity, on-board exposure warning, memory status, white balance.

- File size: 60 MB (DNG and Sinar RAW 16 bit), 181/90 MB (TIFF 48/24 bit)

- Capture rate: 1 image / sec.

- White Balance: Automatic, presets, manual.

- Data storage: High-Speed CF Card (4 GB UDMA CF card included),
alternatively also directly on hard disk via Firewire.

- Active cooling: ventilator.

- Power supply: one (two also possible) rechargeable lithium-ion battery 7.2 V, 2200 mAh.

- Operating time with battery: up to approx. 2000 exposures.

- Firewire interface: IEEE 1394b (800 Mbps, compatible with IEEE 1394a 400 Mbps).

- Capturing software: Sinar eXposure™ 6.1 or later.

- Operating systems: Mac OS X as of 10.4.11, Windows XP as of Service Pack 2, Windows Vista as of Service Pack 1.

- Availability/Delivery: as per September 23rd 2008

2. Sinar Hy6-s65r

- Same as above, but the camera digital back can be used on any other current MF camera with the corresponding adapter interface (Sinar m, Hasselblad V 500 series, Hasselblad H1/H2, Mamiya 645 AFD/AFD II).

- Data storage: The high-speed data transfer of the Sinar Hy6-s65r allows for capturing images at fast capturing rates and storing them to CF card in RAW, DNG, and JPEG format or a combination of them (DNG + JPG or Sinar RAW + JPG).

JPEG images can be stored in 4 different file sizes and two compression rates. Thus, one is able to send low-resolution JPEGs to the art director or agency immediately after the shooting and process the selected high-resolution images later on.

- Revolving Digital Back on the Sinar Hy6.

- Power supply: Two rechargeable lithium-ion batteries 7.2 V, 2200 mAh, for long-lasting operation.

- Live Video

- - Availability/Delivery: as per September 23rd 2008

3. Sinarback eSprit 65

- Single MF digital back, 31 MPx.

- Technical features: same as described above.

- Availability/Delivery: as per September 23rd 2008

Remarks:

- I have purposely not mentioned the ISO range of the above mentioned digital camera system and digital back, since I have no definitive information about it yet. I shall inform as soon I have it.

- Prices available at Photokina.

Here however some first images of these new products:

Dear Thierry,
Thank you for your information!
It looks like a system a lot of us were hoping to get!
I am impressed with the onboard processing idea.
And the back looks right at last
Yevgeny

Thanks Thierry,

Is it a KODAK 31mp (P30+/H3DII31)... or a new DALSA chip ?
Great characteristics... and a new nice 3" (rotaring) screen ;
We should (hope) see the same with the "old & beautifull rendering" 22mp Dalsa Chip ?

Regards, François

Kodak KAF31600CE CCD with full-frame technology and microlenses


It is not the display which is rotating, BUT the menu/screen images (orientation sensor)


Quality is always our first concern, and mainly a software issue: I'm pretty much convinced that it will hold up with a 22 MPx Dalsa.

Best regards,
Thierry

Dear Thierry,

Something is not very clear from the announcement:

Does is mean that Hy6-65 (without r) will not allow us to rotate the back? Is it a take off and reattach adapter, similar to my Sinar unrevolving adapter on the Rollei version of the Hy6?

Yevgeny

Dear Yevgeny,

No, this is not correct:

- the Sinar Hy6 - 65 is a fully integrated camera/back system: the back can however be rotated, by taking it away. The back, however, cannot be used on any other camera platform.

- the Sinar Hy6 - s65r: this camera system uses the Sinarback eSprit 65, with adapter plates. The "r" in the name means that it includes the Sinar revolving adapter. This eSprit back can be used on other MF camera platforms, with the corresponding adapter.

I hope this clarifies.

Best regards,
Thierry

WOW - sounds impressive!
Contax?

What does that mean: "full-frame technology"? The Kodak KAF31600CE is not 645 full frame...

That is a type of CCD sensor, as opposed to interline or linear CCD.

See http://www.kodak.com/global/en/business/IS...l?pq-path=12138

Total chip size is 46.05mm x 35.0mm ...

Exactly, thanks Graham!

I hope not having started again a heated debate about "sensor size" and with those relating it to the size of the sensor.

We are speaking here about the sensor technology used, as named by Kodak.

To make it clear, this sensor has the same size as any other 31,6 MPx sensor used in digital backs: 44x33 mm.

Best regards,
Thierry

Thanks. Didn't want to start a "heated debate"... sorry! :-)

No harm (yet):



Best regards,
Thierry

Thierry,

could you please adress my question above regarding Contax interface...
Didi you mean "common" or "current"?
Thanks!
Thomas

Dear Thomas,

Yes, I can answer your question:

- no, there is no adapter plate planed for the Contax 645 camera. One should therefore rather read "current": my apologies for my bad wording, I shall correct.

Best regards,
Thierry

Discrimination!!!
Thanks again!
Thomas

Dear Thierry,
Thank you very much, I got it now.
And even more reasons to visit Photokina this year...

Kind regards,
Yevgeny

Some questions, Thierry:

It looks as though the camera body is a blacker color scheme?
Did our wailing finally get heard?

Is the lithium-ion 7.2 V, 2200 mAh the same type fitting in the Hy6 handle/grip?

Are the adapter interface plates for the eSprit different from the current eMotion-type and eVolution-type?

Thank you,
Billy

I don't see any menu navigation controls
so is it a touchscreen?

Hi Billy,

- yes, it seems that the colours are matching, this time: I promise you that I have insisted.

- It is the same battery as the one for the Hy6.

- The adapters are the same as the ones used for the eMotion backs (eMotion 22, eMotion 54 LV and eMotion 75 / 75 LV).

Best regards,
Thierry

Thierry,
great news indeed.

I hope for 1600 "usable-no-noise" ISO
and adapterplates for my V system and Mamiya RZ pro II

patrick

Dear Patrick,

- as said, ISO range is not yet definitive and we are still working on it: if we can give a usable ISO 1600 we will add it, if not it will be ISO 800.

- Adapter for Hasselbald V system: yes

- Adapter for Mamiya RZ: no

Best regards,
Thierry

Slightly off-topic....
when will the [necessary] 90º finder ship

Hmmm.... somebody appears to have been listening to wishes vented here. Better display, JPG's on the fly. Definitely some things that people have been asking for. The proof is in the pudding of course but sounds like a very competent new product.

I just agreed to upgrading (maybe I should have waited but circumstances forced me for my own comfort to upgrade) so no potential customer here but it certainly is interesting especially if it comes close or exceeds the H3D31II' s ISO performance. It will be the only 31MP's 'high ISO' back that can be used with adapter plates.

finally,

the fan.. and a nice looking back at that!

Thierry,

When you're able to,
would you find out if the LCD will show the captured image
even while tethered?

James brought up this important feature
of the Phase digital backs.

Thanks again,
Billy

Billy,

I will try to get this information, but probably not before next week.

Thierry

Crikey!

I like the look of the new back. I hope Sinar are going to do an upgrade deal - it makes my 54LV feel a tad lightweight; a great back though.

The clincher for me is the straight-to-DNG that the back can do, and the big screen.

Thanks for taking notes of our needs Sinar. It's going to be an interesting Photokina...

if the adapter plates are the same the contax-e75/54/22 adapter should work as well, or am i wrong herein?

if it works on the mamiya 645, it should work on the RZ via the mamiya adapter?

a big question is price....i find 30mpix to be a perfect size...waaaay big enough for most things, but with the new other backs announced (full frame, really this time more or less, no really.....) and higher pixel counts and the H3 31 selling for 17000.....this has to come in under/at 20000 to compete.....

but really sounds like somebody listened....funny how everybody is switching with the new systems (sinar-kodak, phase-dalsa...)

great news from sinar....

hi Rainer,

you are absolutely right: mechanically it does work/fit.

However, the Contax is not longer supported on the firmware level.

Cheers,
Thierry

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Thierry to re-post.

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Thierry to re-post.

Deleted: re-post

Dear James,

To say that I was not waiting for your reply would be lying!

Allow me to take it addressed to me (Sinar), otherwise I won't be able to answer precisely.



I agree with this, and we are well aware. If you have checked a ISO 800 file of the current eMotion 75 (see my samples posted months ago), then you could see that this in our capacity, to provide clean ISO 800 files.



Agreed, of course. I can only suggest to try eXposure, rather than having in your mind that it is certainly not stable. So far it has proven pretty stable. Now, to go as far as saying that a software has never a crash or never hangs: I would never believe this, from none of the manufacturers.



Yes, possible with Sinar.



Yes, also possible with Sinar.



That's why we have introduced a DNG workflow.



Yes, agreed, and we have listened.



I believe that our 3" display comes close to the D3 one, if not equal: it has the same size, same resolution, capability to be adjusted, ...



I will have to check this one: hold on for a while. I believe that it should not be a big issue if not implemented yet.



Well, that has been discussed many times: fact is that it is not accepting Phase One or Hasselblad backs.

Agreed.



Yes, prices are important for the endusers. Believe me that we do our best here. On the other hand, we cannot calculate a price which we know being a loss for the company. There is a price we need to ask for, seriously calculated, not to steal the money from the customers, but to be able to survive. I agree that it is then the decision of this customer to accept this price or not.



I might also not have been very clear. There are 2 Hy6 camera systems:

- the Sinar Hy6 - 65: it is an integrated system, the back can be taken away and rotated, but this back cannot be adapted to another camera platform/brand.

- the Sinar Hy6 - s65r: this camera system has a REVOLVING adapter. The digital back for this configuration can accept any adapter to mount the back to other MF bodies (Hasselblad V, H1/H2, Mamiya 645, Sinar m). Contax is not longer supported.



Both backs rotate: one by taking it away, the other by revolving on/with the adapter.
Why 2 different?: simply because of different needs and different prices.



I have PURPOSELY not indicated the definitive ISO range, because we are still working on it. If we are able to deliver a CLEAN ISO 1600, then we will implement it at Photokina. If not, then it will be ISO 800 AT Photokina. Concerning the quality of this ISO 800, and without having tested/seen it yet, I beleive that it will be at least as good as the ISO 800 available from the eMotion 75 MPx, probably better.



This is not a matter of not wanting to tell, but simply a wish to give the best possible without making false promises or statements.



I do take it seriously. Your input is valuable and am convinced that many others see it this way also.



Thanks James, much appreciated.

best regards,
Thierry

Can't wait to hear prices, and see how good the screen is. I demoed the Hy6 75LV, and the camera handles like a dream.

Best,

Mitchell

Billy,

No, it is not touchscreen.

There is a little "rolling" knob which does the navigation, when moved in the different directions: very convenient to use, and fast with it.

It is the outer left (brighter grey) knob.

Best regards,
Thierry

Some more information as it comes in:

Supported image parameters from the menu:

- Contrast
- Saturation
- Unsharp mask
- Noise filter
- Automatic white balance / color temperature
- 3 color spaces (sRGB, Adobe RGB and ECI RGB)

Best regards,
Thierry

A Sinar employee reminded me that Jenoptic created the in-camera processing for Leica M8 DNGs.

The new Hy6 65 builds on the same technology, like Leica, with a Kodak chip. As M8 files seem to hit well above their 11MB weight, it will be interesting to see how the 65 does with true 16 bit files. Also the M8 screen, while smaller than the 65's 3 inch screen, does well fueled by in-camera jpegs.

Best,

Mitchell

So far I'm impressed

good!

Auto WB - excellent!

But no Contax adapter?! Boo! I have a great range of lenses for my Contax including a tilt/shift 100mm and a Hasselblad 110mm f2 with an adapter that I use often on my Contax, and I would still like to be able to use these lenses and body with any new digital back I buy. The cost of upgrading the back is high enough, without the need for a new body and lenses....

Please reconsider!

Ben

Dear Ben,

I have forwarded your remark/wish, as well as all others going in the same direction, and asked for reconsideration.

Best regards,
Thierry

I have to admit I'm really amazed by all of this. I heard a rumor that Sinar was going to have a new lcd and in camera processing, but quite honestly I didn't take it all that seriously, because rumors in the camera world are abundant.

If Sinar can really get a clean 800 iso (and by clean not just 800 iso but detailed smooth 800) then with all the other features that is something to consider.

I've always said don't give me something I currently have give me something I can't live without.

Obviously I'd love to see a Contax mount, if only to make a transition easier from the HY6 to the current system I use and the ability to make my 75lb case of lenses still viable.

I think the ability to change mounts of a mfdb is beyond a plus. Not only it is one way to make the price of a back easier to take, but it allows for so many different looks.

Even if you wanted to use the back 90% of the time on an HY6 there are other uses like the RZ for in studio beauty and the Contax using tilt shifts, the 35mm and the fast 80mm.

Also it gives you a way to have a backup without spending another $10,000.

Now Theirry we are we waiting for the other shoe to fall.

No disrespect meant to anyone, but a lot of the time, medium format tends to not be that on point when it comes to delivery and getting all of the kinks worked out at delivery.

Also some mediuum format is also not that good at meeting their own self imposed deadlines.

If this new back and camera has everything that is promised, a clean high iso, stable software and is competitive in price you really have something.

That and if it's marketed well. Medium format seems to make the marketing effort difficult at best and in fact lately I could write a small book on the challanges in the medium format marketing effort.

Once again, I wish you the best with this camera. If it hits all the points it will be good for our industry.

Sinar was obviously not just listening, they responded.

I am still amazed.

JR

Thierry,

I'm sure you're a nice guy, but to just give you some feedback from a potential customer: Why would you come to the town square, like a Town Crier, and yell out all this information, but not have a price for it? You guys wonder why we accuse you MF reps of being used-car salesmen, and this is one reason. It just feels like bait-and-switch, or in the least, "get the customer hyped up", instead of one man looking into another man's eyes, and saying "here is my product; these are the details; this is the price", like a respectable man would.

This camera system does indeed sound interesting, and it does sound like Sinar has listened and responded, but seriously, to do business this way is infuriating.

Would be like someone strolling down the streets of Amsterdam one lovely night, and the girl in the window says, "this is my product", and the customer says "How much?", and the girl says "Uh, I'm not sure, call me next week".

Trust me, it's as basic as that.

This is business, not personal. But if you want to know what's behind some of the resentment toward most anything MediumFormat, it's practices like not having your act together when you come to market.

Would Apple Computer announce a product without all the details? No way in hell. You want Apple loyalty?; then treat customers like grown-ups. I know you're excited, but you have to know the effect of half-disclosure.

James, Here are the 800 ISO examples from the eMotion75LV-II with Dalsa 33MP :
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1683

.

Maybe. But here is no girl, yet. Just a poster with the girl under the headline: "will be here next week."
What's the problem? It's an announcement - less than that. A kind of preview of what one can - probably! - expect from the upcoming product. And when it's out... there will be a price.
So read the the thread again after photokina. No?

Well, if THAT isn't the highest compliment,
and deserved for 1 fps, "D3" class LCD (TBD), DNG format, simultaneous JPEG, FW800

I was the original complainer of the color scheme, and it was addressed as well.
http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....ndpost&p=185636
http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showpost.php...58&postcount=14

However, still pending are:
- whereabouts of 90º finder
- whereabouts of electronic cable releases
- more AF lenses are needed aside from the expected 35mm focal length

Since I'm a list guy, I have a list for getting a camera to market.

1. Price it. Not just the body, or the finders or the new lenses, but everything. Body, finder, lenses, legacy lenses, where you can get them, what they cost in each market. I routinely estimate jobs in three markets, like Portugal, San Francisco and New York and do it down to the fine detail of talent, catering, weather, location fees, etc. and if my studio can go to this detail, so can Sinar or any company.

2. Meet the delivery deadlines. If you won't have everything (underscore everything) out at a certain time, then give yourself a longer deadline. Don't miss it because the moment you break a promise you lose credibility.

3. Demonstrate the software. Look at Adobe's Dr. Brown videos. Those are on point and easy to understand. Show your software in action. Show what happens when a series of files have to be renamed, or moved or background processed. Durinng this, shoot 12 frames and pull the firewire cord to show how easy (or not easy) it is to reconnect. Get that information on the web and in downloadable fashion and prove to your customer that you are not the best solution, you are the only solution.

4. Once again, get it in rentals. I don't expect to find a new Hy6 in Des Moinse, but I do expect to rent a backup (if needed) in Paris, London, Milan, New York, Tokyo, Hong Kong, Miami, Los Angeles. You'd be smart to add Dallas, Chicago and Barcelona.

5. Put this camera in good photographers hands and get some beautiful imagery shot with it.
I and a lot of others are approached by camera companies. Some are quite good and honest at marketing and others well to be polite just seem to be all over the place. Have great photographers shoot great imagery and treat the people that use your cameras with the same respect you want for your own self and company. Keep the marketing honest and to the point and show beautiful imagery.

6. Once again clarity. Don't spend time driving over the backs, putting them in microwaves, or calling something full frame that is not full frame. Your selling to a professional market and the message should be simple and professional. As gwitif says, look at Apple. It's to the point, it's professional, it's clean, it's available.

7. Follow up on everything. I've owned about $140,000 in digital cameras and backs and not once have I had one company or dealer call me and ask if I was happy with my purchase. I can take my wife's car in for an oil change at the dealer and I get three calls asking if the service was satisfactory.

8. Respect your customers. (See #7). Don't send out generic lists asking for 15 minutes of my time to slot into some kind of focus group presentation (See Hasselblad for what not to do). Make the call, ask the questions, volunteer your services and even if your customer declines he will always appreciate it.

9. Get in front of the hard issues. See Yair of Leaf and Rick of Leaf Of America for this example. If a customer has a problem then get in front of it, get a result and give an answer. Rick is available 8 hours a day, Yair I think 24 hours a day (sorry Yair) and they get to a result. Theirry I'm sure your good in your market and obviously good on this forum, but once past you there doesn't seem to be a lot of information from Sinar. Correct me if I'm wrong.

JR