I recently received a Z3100 and am working on some B&W trials. I previously had the HP130 and some great B&W profiles made by Neil Snape,however, "Photoshop Managed Colors" was used in the Print Dialogue.

Printing B&W with the Z3100 is different in that "Printer Managed colors" are
recommended by both HP and Neil Snape. I've never used "printer managed colors" before & don't know what to expect.

(my references to Schewe are from the "Camera to Print Video"; references to Neil Snape are from his Z3100 review)

I tried a print using HP ID Photo Satin and it turned out darker and more contrasty then a previous print with the HP130. This is not what I expected so I'm trying to find out what I'm doing wrong. In this case, I sent the file to the printer in Prophoto RGB color space instead of converting it to Adobe RGB as recommended by HP.

The second time I tried converting the workspace from Prophoto to Adobe RGB before sending to the printer and the print was a better match to my previous HP130 trial.

These are some of the color and print settings:

Paper used by HP for these settings: Hahnemuhle Smooth Fine Art Paper

Color Settings:

HP suggests Color Working Space: Adobe RGB - (I used Prophoto RGB)

HP suggests Grey working Space: Dot Gain 10% - (Schewe suggests Gamma 1.8)- Is this paper specific?
Where does this Gray working space come into play if RGB is used through to printing?

Does the Gray working space matter at all with "Printer Managed Color"?

HP Suggests Intent: Perceptual - (Shewe suggests Relative C. which I used)

HP suggests Convert to grayscale in Photoshop channel mixer - (I use B&W Adjustment Layer, but when the file is flattened for printing, it is still in Prophoto RGB of course - should it be in Adobe RGB or sRGB?) The HP print dialogue allows for only Adobe RGB or sRGB for the source profile.

Printing Menu:

Paper type: HP Hahnemule Smooth Fine Art Paper (in HP example) (I used HP ID Satin)
Quality Options: select Standard and drag slider to Quality

Color Tab:
- Choose Print in Grayscale

Color Management:
- Select Printer Managed Colors - recommended by HP and Neil Snape
- Select Use Embedded (Icc/Colorsync) from the source profile list - choices from the Print Dialogue are Adobe RGB and sRGB.

Why wouldn't it be better to use Photoshop managed color and possibly proofing with B&W profiles?

Any comments on this? What mistakes have I made?

By the way, the printer (manufactured in June 2008) arrived with the old pinch wheels and starwheel assembly. I complained to the dealer who contacted HP in Richmond. HP is sending someone to changes these parts in a couple of days - no questions asked. I'm impressed - this is good service. It seems to me they could have saved themselves a lot of money doing this at the factory.

Larry

Hi Larry,

I share your pain. I also recently started using Z3100. It is a difficult transition - mine was from Piezography (very hard to beat).

I also had the star wheel board exchanged. On top of everything my printer went crazy (see my post "Z3100 not listening").

I'm still learning and not in position of giving advice - other members here are more experienced than both of us. At least you'll find your Hahnemuhle papers much more satisfactory than the HP stuff supplied with the printer.

B&W requires a lot - and I'm still not sure whether my Z3100 can beat Piezo output.

Stay in touch,

Vlad3

I use Qimage for printing instead of Photoshop, but about the profiling policy it should be the same.
I work in Photoshop in ProPhoto RGB. I convert to black and white my preferred way, but I stay in Prophoto space.
I print with Qimage with "application managed colour" with my usual color paper profile. And I'm very happy.
I know it's not the way Neil like better, but this way I do proofing easily and I really like the result. I made tests with some prints to stand the "application managed color" and the "printer managed colour". I was loosing the convenience of the proofing and was not impressed by the result.
I can't speak about piezo, I never use it. I worked black & white before with an Epson 4000 and QTRGUI. I'm far happier of course with the Z3100.

Larry,

I'm not going to comment on the different workflows but I work as follows:

1/With HP's recommended B&W mode CM settings: Printer CM on, Printer Greyscale mode, AdobeRGB or sRGB as the space (no difference there they are both 2.2 Gamma).
2/Qimage's CM OFF (so not set for Printer CM but really OFF).
3/Fresh calibration for the paper to be used either using HP's media preset or a custom one based on one of HP's media presets. The B&W driver mode as set above will use the calibration data like it does with color modes where the application does CM and the driver is set to color but it's CM is off.

Print one of the QTR step wedges (has no profile assigned) and measure whether it is linear. It usually is close but with the custom media preset tools one can at least limit the ink load slightly if the Dmax at 100% dropped slightly to the next target patch and then print a new target. The target that measures linear is used to create a QTR profile for that paper with QTR's ICC profile tool.

A preferably 16 bit B&W image is loaded in Photoshop for editing etc. I use either Gamma 2.2 or QTR's Lab as the "space" assigned to the B&W image when working on it in Photoshop. They do not differ that much but the Lab should be a bit more perceptual than the 2.2 curve is. The B&W image is archived with that space. Softproofs are checked with the QTR created profile. For printing with Qimage I convert the image to the QTR created profile for the paper used. That's done in Photoshop too. Relative color metric with BPC or plain perceptual, depending on the content.

That file I bring to Qimage and use the exact settings described above in 1 and 2 to print. Qimage will not do any color or gamma manipulations but makes neutral RGB from greyscale files (that's the only format it knows), it will not transfer the assigned profile to the Z3100 driver CM (with Qimage CM OFF!). The Z3100 driver in the mode settings above will treat neutral RGB like it will treat greyscale, it will expect a Gamma 2.2 assigned file whether it actually gets that or not. Like the QTR target didn't have an assigned profile and Qimage doesn't transfer the assigned profile with CM OFF. The workflow will do exactly what it did with the target but the image tone values were already shifted with the profile-to-profile conversion in Photoshop so the output is not linear but has a more perceptual (Lab) curve between paper white and paper+ink Dmax.

While I trust Qimage's CM for color for 95% I have some reservations on its QTR B&W profile handling. There are QTR RGB profiles that should behave better but I prefer the smaller size of greyscale in the workflow.

There's a separate densitometer or spectrometer needed for this workflow. I did discuss the possibility of adding B&W profiling etc to the Z3100 with one of HP's color men on the Photokina booth in 2006. He had heard of QTR but thought the solution as it is, was good enough. It will be for 90% if you stay with Gamma 2.2 in Photoshop and use the neutral setting of B&W in the driver. For color toning in the B&W mode of the driver you will not get linear output that way though. And with just custom B&W profiling like I do there is a way to compensate it partly but not entirely. That aspect is really solved with a RIP like QTR where the color toned B&W output can be linearised first and a profile created for that setting too. But alas, no support for HP models in the QTR driver right now.

www.quadtonerip.com


A pity that HP used the wrong CM default settings in the B&W printing shortcuts. Understandable for the color mode as not all applications have CM but for B&W this is wrong.


Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

Hi Ernst-

This is very helpful, as usual. Do you find that changing the Gray balance affects the ramp L, or does it just change the A and B? In other words, do you need to create a new profile for each change in A or B?

Thanks, Bill

Bill,

I do not touch the grey balance in the advanced settings of the B&W mode, it will affect the ramp anyway so makes the profile worthless. If I used settings like that I have to keep a record of all the adjustments for the next time I print that image so that's done in Photoshop and is kept in the image to print. To get the A and B more or less straight for a given paper white you need to shift the X Y values per range, no use to try that for the shadows though. Any color toning after you created the profile and it affects the curve again but that's what I still do. For more than moderate color toning I skip the B&W mode. I have the optimistic view that I could create another (average) B&W profile for mild color toning but didn't find the time for it.

Some years ago I discussed with Roy Harrington that even a B&W RIP like QTR should have a kind of color engine (rough one) to compensate effects like that. However if HP would create curve compensations for the 6 hues used in the color toning + a bit more complexity on two hue mixes, it would work in this driver too and one could use a single B&W profile per paper.


Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

Hi Ernst-

Now I'm not sure I understand. I thought the point of this was to be able to use the grey balance settings to tone the image, while still maintaining a color managed workflow.

Are you saying that you only make the grey balance adjustments before you make the QTR profile? Or does your process not have anything to do with adjusting the grey balance, but just profiling the nuetral gray.

Sorry for my denseness on this, I thought I understood it; guess not.

Bill

Bill,

I'm in fact only profiling the neutral grey setting. There's no other way or only a compromised way.

The grey balance as you phrase it are the sliders for the 3 sections of the curve at the top of the B&W advanced mode. I never touch them in that profiled workflow.
The color toning sliders are at the bottom of that menu. I use them moderately.

If the paper isn't linear after the first calibration with the suitable media preset for it you got one choice to get it linear in the next calibration: Ink limitation when the last black patch is less dense or equal in measuring to the second one. In my experience the calibration makes the rest linear enough then. To be clear I use HP's auto calibration and after that print a QTR greyscale target to measure the linearity and use the same one to make the QTR profile if that target is linear. If users complain about shadow detail it is that step of ink limitation to get the fundament correct. The custom profile (or Gamma 2.2 more or less) fits the possible tone range then perceptually correct between paper white and Dmax.

Color toning before profiling is needed when the paper white doesn't suit the quad ink color. But that can't be done before calibration/linearisation which makes the difference to the QTR driver. It limits the level of correction in the Z3100 driver you can do as it will throw the linearity out with too much color toning. Save it as a printer shortcut. The same for the grey balance but I do not need that. In theory you could do all that on top of the calibration and create a perceptual correct curve or linear scale + QTR profile (a la Paul Roark with Epson drivers) and profile that and save the advanced settings in a Z3100 printer shortcut. Not my style, done that kind of complex things when I had to drive an Epson 9000 quad with the Wasatch Softrip before QTR appeared. I rather see HP add compensation curves for the 6 hues, it would be in line with how they intended the B&W driver. This recalls the requests Roy got from me when he developed QTR. If HP adds the greyscale balance curves related to the color toning you could depend on one B&W profile per paper. The other approach: if HP allows an extra auto linearisation after color toning you get the QTR solution.

I have to do the greyscale editing in PS. I understand that HP brought the darkroom back in its Advanced B&W menu system like Epson did with its ABW mode. The calibration of the Z models is an extra fundament though. And I use it more fundamentally than intended. I do not see that as a limitation like I never use the advanced color sliders in the color mode. Overriding profiling is a habit I try to avoid. Editing is something for PS. Overall editing is done on the profile.

Far too long again.


Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

Hi Ernst-

By grey balance I actually meant the toning sliders- my bad, sorry. I also never touch the three balance sliders on top; I agree, that's what linearization and profiling are for.

So it sounds to me like, for small toning adjustments, you don't do a re-profiling?

Sorry again for the confusion, and all the extra typing.

Bill

Correct, for small color toning adjustments I do not make extra profiles.


I must make some time again to see what different color tone settings over the six hue angles do exactly to the linearity. For example a 10 shift to yellow for the total range of tones (the default in the B&W menu) is likely doing as much on the gamma curve as say 3 cyan + 3 magenta. The shape of similar gamma influences will be something of an egg or pear crosscut and not be concentric on the XY spectral disc. If I have that let's call it "isobar line" located I could make adjustments in the grey balance to get the linearity back along that isobar line and save that setting as a printer driver shortcut. In theory it could use the same profile I made for the neutral setting. But it will only adjust correctly at that crosscut, HP could do the compensation in an overall shape build around six compensation curves for the six hues. A crude ink color engine.


Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/