I just received an e-mail from Hasselblad @ their new pricing structure. Dropping their prices up to 40%. It is a little confusing, but I am not sure whether H3DII-31 still remains at $17,999. & what other products prices now are, with new discounts?
Anybody including the dealers have a grasp on the new pricing structure?
Thanks

> H3DII-50 (Kodak) : 17.995 € HT

> H3DII-60 - (Dalsa 40,2x53,7 / 60,1Mp) : 22.995 €HT (Q1/2009)

> ZOOM HCD 4-5.6 / 35-90mm (for H3 only) : 4.990 €HT (january 09)

> H3DII31 + 2.8/80 HC : 11.995 €HT

> H3DII39 + 2.8/80 HC : 14.990 €HT

> H3DII39-MS : 19.995 €HT

I received the same email.
What does this mean?
"Secondly, by significantly lowering the retail price we are able to remove the necessity of a trade-up program..."

Also if what FrançoisTT posted is the new pricing, Ummmm....is that lower???

- Rudy

I just got a post card in the mail that offers the H3DII-31 for $15,995 and goes on to say that if you buy it now you can get 12 months interest free and no payments for 12 months. (guess its body only?)

Hhhhhmmmmmmmmmm...........

Glad I haggled over the price as much as I did when I bought earlier this year!

D.

I do applaud this new strategy since it will open up not only the primary market for MFDB but probably will also fuel the 2nd hand market.

Glad I agreed upon upgrading a couple of weeks ago

I had post the new (French) hasselblad Prices I had received today by mail from my dealer in Paris.

François do you know the price of H3DII39 (not MS) body only ?

I don't.
I understand they sold it now with the 80mm like for the 31mp promotion.

thanks !

I could play at Photokina with the 35-90 and it is really a wonderful lens

Would someone post a link to the new 35-90 zoom, please?
Is it huge?

here

in the hands it looks like the HC 35mm

Has no-one else noticed that Hasselblad has apparently announced a new king-of-the-hill model (for resolution and sensor size) in the most amazingly understated way, an emailed price list:

And at king-of-the-hill affordability for that sensor size, too!

If this is for real, it sounds like the same "Full Frame 645 format" sensor as in the Phase One P65+ back --- making the talk of Phase One having an exclusive on that sensor, and of it being a Phase One-Dalsa collaboration seem a bit of an "exaggeration".


P.S. I just found official confirmation for this news:
http://www.hasselblad.se/news/hasselblad-a...directions.aspx

"At the wide-angle setting, in particular, Hasselblad’s designers have balanced improvements in lens performance with a slightly greater distortion and vignetting as these are eliminated by Hasselblad’s Digital APO Correction (DAC) without any compromise on quality."

That's the statement on this new lens. I think it's pretty lame that for a $7K lens, they can't actually make the best glass possible and not have software 'fix' it. Makes the new S2 Leica glass look like the apex of lens development and in the same stratosphere price point arena.

What kind of BS is this (from today's announcement, link above):

"The H3DII-60 will feature a 60 megapixel sensor that provides 94% full-frame, 645 coverage. We feel that it’s important to emphasize the 94% coverage, because, although we hear the phrase 'full-frame' being used quite frequently, no manufacturer has yet achieved true medium format full-frame."

Wasn't Hasselblad the numbnut company who was calling 36x48 full-frame.

P.S. I believe Hasselblad makes very good products, it's just their PR is complete garbage.

Let the price wars begin.

Ha, Hasselblad's marketing guys are just too funny, calling it full frame 2 years ago (the viewfinder was FF actually) and now not being happy with P1 calling their sensor FF. Anyway...
Interesting times if these prices are true.
Went to a french shop to check € prices:
http://www.lemoyenformat.com/Neuf/MFnu.htm (in french)
Funny thing, they are "inspired" by this forum, James, scroll down to the P21 ad to find a screenshot of your comment over here.
If Hassy bring down the prices, the others will have to follow. Maybe this will be at the same time the end of the upgrade system.


Tom-

"To achieve its compact form, the light projection of the lens has been designed for the ‘48mm full format’ sensor of the H3DII-39 and H3DII-50. At the wide-angle setting, in particular, Hasselblad’s designers have balanced improvements in lens performance with a slightly greater distortion and vignetting as these are eliminated by Hasselblad’s Digital APO Correction (DAC) without any compromise on quality. The outcome is a powerful tool that zooms from an impressive 83 degree, wide-angle to just beyond the fringes of a normal lens."

What happens to the 28mm and this lens when the new sensor 60mp H3D comes out? Isn't the sensor larger on that one?

Well if Mamiya/ Phase don't get their stupid Leaf shutter lens they have been promise out into the market before the end of the year.. I would certainly consider going with Hassleblad considering the price drop...:+}

Of Course a nice new 5DII will come before that....:+}

I think the medium format guys have gauged us enough and now it is time for them to suffer!!

Bring on the Competition...

Snook

BJL wrote, "Has no-one else noticed that Hasselblad has apparently announced a new king-of-the-hill model (for resolution and sensor size) in the most amazingly understated way, an emailed price list:

FrançoisTT quote, "H3DII-60 - (Dalsa 40,2x53,7 / 60,1Mp) : 22.995 €HT (Q1/2009)"

And at king-of-the-hill affordability for that sensor size, too!

If this is for real, it sounds like the same "Full Frame 645 format" sensor as in the Phase One P65+ back --- making the talk of Phase One having an exclusive on that sensor, and of it being a Phase One-Dalsa collaboration seem a bit of an "exaggeration".

P.S. I just found official confirmation for this news:
http://www.hasselblad.se/news/hasselblad-a...directions.aspx"

-----------------------------------------------------

Looks like Hasselblad is attempting to flex some muscle and lay waste to Phase One, Leaf, and Sinar profit margins, and especially newcomer Leica with its new S2.

A very interesting strategy on Hasselblad's part to make a "poison pen" announcement of their upcoming 60MP sensor (Q1/2009) at a price point of around $33,724.33 USD (direct conversion of Euros to USD) undercutting the potential volume of sales of Phase One's P65+ first to market "645 MFDB" (Q4/ 2008) and its initial price point of approx $39,413.00 USD.

And that the Hasselblad price will include the HD3II camera and 80mm lens as well as the 60MP Back!

There is a very serious marketing battle in progress!

Will Phase One respond and adjust their pricing structure to be more competitive?

Is the Leica S2 product announcement providing fuel to Hasselblad's price reduction too? And will Leica have to adjust their "stratospheric" pricing on their new S-System camera and lenses before they even get out of the gate?

Will Nikon join in this crazy fray with their rumored MX product? And what of Canon?

Folks, don't turn that dial; stay tuned for the next exciting episode!

Joe Bossuyt

Synopsis of pricing is; (Remember this includes the camera, viewfinder & 80mm lens)
H3DII-31 $17,995
H3DII-39 $21,995
H3DII-50 $27,995
H3DII-60 $35,995
H3DII-39MS $30,995 (Multi-shot)
CFII-39 $19,995
CFII-39MS $28,995 (Multi shot)
Nice.....puts Phase one in a pickle, answer is quite easy, don't make CEO profit off hard working photographers - EVERYTIME ONE back is sold.

Plus Hasselblad has a full lens line up! I don't understand why anyone would wait for other manufacturers to get their but in gear? How many years have we been waiting for new MF digital cameras? It's been like watching paint dry. Good move Hasselblad!

While the new pricing is exciting the fact that they discontinued the upgrade program is not good for existing customers. Having reset the used values by quite a bit working out the cost to upgrade after selling the older gear and recapturing the depreciation, it is going to cost more than the old-upgrade plan would have. I am surprised they did not offer anything to the existing base.

Competition is a good thing however!

Anyone have speculation on the fate of the HCD lenses with the eventual move to "near full frame" sensors? HCD lenses are looking like they may share the ultimate fate of Nikon DX and Canon EF-S (of course those manufacturers are going to continue to build crop sensors for some time). I really like the HCD 28 and i am looking forward to trying out the new HCD wide zoom. the decision to upgrade to near full frame is now more difficult.

Is there any other differences between the 39 and 50 megapixel backs beside density? I am wondering if the 50 is a big enough jump in density to be that significant, especially with near full frame 60 megapixel backs next year?

Would you upgrade from an 8MP DSLR to a 10MP if EVEYTHING is identical except the megapixel count? It's a tough sell for existing 39MP owners, but an easier sell for owners of smaller file size backs.

Moving from 39mp to 50mp doesn't make sense for me, especially with the amazing quality / results that I get from Flexcolor / Phocus. 60mp or more, perhaps, but 39mp is enough to last me for a long time.

You are right, it's an easier sell for lower pixel back users.

Exactly, maybe i was being too kind in my question, unless there is some major other advantage like less noise, better dynamic range, better bayer filter. Rumors were there would be some substantive advantages but i certainly have not read about any. With the new pricing if someone was about to up for a H3DII-39 now the can obviously have a H3DII-50 as you point out.

On the upgrade issue I was told I could upgrade to the H3DII-60 for the price difference, which at the time was estimated to be about $5,500 more than the old H3DII-39, now it is going to be much more depending on your resale and depreciation circumstances so i am not sure i agree with Paulsen that the new pricing makes an upgrade plan unnecessary. It certainly would have been desirable

Has anyone seen a H-series GPS module yet?

yes I have tried it in PhotoKina, it is very small and easy to use , but indoor it was not working

Am I right in thinking that these Hassleblad backs can only be used on the Hassy camera?

ie: You can't mount the back on a Cambo or an Alpa or a view camera.

Fascinating, it looks like the medium format market is finally starting to move...

To my eyes, this is a validation of the Nikon MX rumor, since I don't see anything else that could have set things in motion this way. The Leica S2 cannot be the reason, it is one year away and its price has not been confirmed yet...

Phaseone will have a very hard time selling P65+ backs at 40.000 US$ IMHO. You can find like new H3D39II at less than 20.000 US$ now on ebay.

Either way, it looks like waiting a few more months is probably the best thing to do.

Cheers,
Bernard

From the posted link: "Nevertheless, to show that we’re not going to rest on our laurels, we’re also announcing the forthcoming H3DII-60, an even higher end camera that we’ll launch in 2009. The H3DII-60 will feature a 60 megapixel sensor that provides 94% full-frame, 645 coverage. We feel that it’s important to emphasize the 94% coverage, because, although we hear the phrase 'full-frame' being used quite frequently, no manufacturer has yet achieved true medium format full-frame.”"

Hasselblad CEO Mr. Poulsen says that even we hear the phrase 'full-frame' it's important to emphasize the 94% coverage. WHAT? You have a short memory mr. Poulsen but let me refreshen it. It was you who launched the 'full frame' just 2 years ago. H3D the worlds first full frame dslr!

Don't you find it strange that Hasselblad would develop a HCD zoom lens when they fully well know that they have a larger sensor in development? I would like to hear what hasselblad is thinking with regards to this

Indeed! And as for 39Mp multi-shot.......don't start me!

D.

Two comments to above posts.

1. In partial defense of Hasselblad, it always said "48MM Full Frame", carefully not claiming to fill the full 645 film frame. So now Hasselblad is splitting hairs over a 1.08x crop factor in order to accuse Phase One of exaggeration, which seems like sour grapes over Phase One beating it to announcement of "645 format digital". (I wonder if Kodak is promissing Hasselblad a full 645 format 56x41.5mm sensor in a year or two, in response to Dalsa's size jump?)

2. The 44x33mm and 48x36mm formats are alive and well at Hasselblad, and offer options far less expensive than the new "near 645", so the 28mm and the brand new 35-90/4-5.6 HCD lenses still have a healthy role. In fact the decision to produce that new HCD zoom now to me confirms Hasselblad's intention to sustain two or more sensor size options for the sake of catering to different price ranges. (That zoom also fills the main FOV choice gaps that have been complained about with sub-645 sensors, but only at smaller maximum apertures than some would like.)

Six years after Canon launched its 35mm full frame line there is still a substantial market for Canon EF-S lenses, including the high end ones, for use with cameras like the new 50D. Likewise the Nikon D300 suggests that good quality DX format gear is still going strong, sustaining a market for good quality DX lenses. Likewise for the HCD lenses, I expect: the price premium for substantially larger sensors will probably never be reduced to a negligible level.

Rumors of the death of good quality lenses and bodies in formats smaller than the traditional film formats are greatly exaggerated.

(Especially when 44x33 and 48x36 are instead larger than the dominant film format!)

Medium format has finally done it, they produced too many pdfs, claiming what is full frame, what is not, why one size is better than the other, (and they all at one time or another called something that wasn't full frame full frame), so no finger pointing at Hasselblad . . . they all have done it.

They even make up new formats, True Wide, 48mm Full Frame, real 645 full frame, now we have the Hasselblad HCD crop. Cool.

So I wouldn't worry if you bought a 28mm hasselblad lens and the next sensor is larger than full frame full frame, there will just be a pdf produced that explaings it, which is a whole lot easier than actually making a new lens.

Now with Leica we have a traditional 35mm, (hey their words not mine) shape in a medium format camera. Well, I guess I should say a medium format prototype camera and if they decide to change the frame shape tomorrow, no problem, just write another pdf. But Leica can be forgiven for making a big 35mm camera because it will have the best image quality in the world, (once again their words, not mine) though I'm sure their strategic partners might take a little issue with that last statement.

I Can't wait until I'm at the next dinner party and somebody asks me what type of camera I use.

I'm goiing to say, well right now I'm using a 1.26 crop medium format but am looking forward to the 48mm HCD crop which I plan on replacing with either the true wide or the -8mm Full Frame 645 crop. I'm just waiting for the PDF's to tell me I can go pick it up.



JR

uh - 40% off that 35-90 would be killler...no such luck tho...

Now that the prices are below stratospheric, I have a few questions about the H3. Does it tether and stay tethered all day without connectivity issues?

If it gets disconnected can you reconnect without restarting the computer or the like?

How long does the battery last?

Where can I find some good large sample files? (Preferably fashion shot with daylight)

Looking at their site, I am not sure why they would compare their file to a Canon (1Ds2 I think), when the Canon file looks just as good, even at ridiculous zoom levels (see below)


Probably a pipe dream, but does anyone know if these price reductions spill over to the *lenses*?

Also, does anyone know whether there is a definitive test somewhere on the web showing d.r. differences between the current backs and the Canon 1ds3? I know there is lots of hearsay, but what I am looking for is *evidence*. The pixels seem to be about the same size, no?

What about the h3dII-22? Is it going away or just not included in the new pricing scheme. I'm a 35mm shooter looking to slow down next season and shoot more high-end portraiture... so mf is an option I'm considering. But I don't need 30-something megapixels...

... I just want the lenses and the lack of an aa filter and the high sync speed.

Been looking at other mf systems, but the new prices on the blads make for a compelling argument.

Until then, it'll be 5dII

Shelby
shelbylewis.com

I'll be surprised if all the prices aren't aligned again pretty soon. No point in getting the system you didn't want rather than waiting a month. It's worth asking anyway.

Hi Lisa,

Check this:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/back-testing.shtml

Regarding lenses I don't really expect prices to go down. Large format, large elements, big lens, big money.

That said, Mamiya make realtively affordable lenses.

Erik

James,

The PDF I read told me about a bigger 35 mm format. Or was it a full 30x45 format or may be a reduced 6x6?

I still think that natural format is something larger than reduced 35 mm but smaller than reduced 8x12". What do you think?

Erik

Since Kodak has discontinued the 22 MP chip, I guess all 22 MP backs are going away, including Phase One P25+.

Thorbjørn.

Thank Erik,
While I had seen that page some time ago, I just checked it out again.
It goes on at length about resolving detail in dollar bills, but what I am most interested in is *dynamic range*. Is there someone who has tested this where the results are on the web someplace?

I am not too concerned with detail, as all modern high end cameras seem to out-resolve the paper that the images are printed on! I mean, I can not tell which camera was used by looking at a print in a gallery or a magazine or…

As such, the only thing that would really compel me to invest in MF would be DR, as the rest seems about equal when it comes to looking at prints.

Hi,

I have seen some tests in a Swedish periodical for professional about a year ago. They photographed "stouffer edges" and arrived at about one stop advantage for medium format.

There are lots of discussion of dynamic range on these forums. I guess that "Panopeeper" or "Gluijk" will have a lot of input.

Best regards
Erik

Lisa,

your conclusion is kind of true.....but
The extended dynamic range of MF (mostly due to 16bits vs 14bits for the mk3 and soon the 5dmk2) will show slightly more gradation in the highlights and shadows, although I must say that it is visually very subtle.
It does make a difference when processing a 16bit Analog to digital converted file.. For me the best simple example that I have seen is just taking a MF sample file and up-res it, it is kind of incredible what you can do with the file, and as someone stated on this forum recently, they are almost elastic...

About the magazine test, do you remember which cameras they were using?
Also, I have read some of the panopeeper and gluijk stuff and it seems to be mostly NOT based on head to head tests with *recent* cameras.

To be clear, I am not looking for dense tech talk. What I am interested in is real world tests

Thanks for the response Raphael. About the bits, I have read numerous times that the extra two bits are empety - i.e., no useful info there. Anyway bits and d.r. are not directly linked, right? Who knows, and it's easy to start down the tech talk path, which is why I just want to SEE what others have found, if it's available. In my experience shooting 1Ds3 and Phase 31mp and 39mp backs, I have not seen the difference in D.R. Even when pushing the files in post.

Sorry, I'm on a tript so I have no oppurtunity to check. I'd suggest that post a question on this forum. Lot's of users here who own both DSLs and MF backs.

Erik

Hi,

As far as I understand dynamic range is dependent on the size of the pixel, the larger the pixel the more electrons it can hold, but also on the noise level. Canon DSLRs have very little noise in special. MFDB:s have probably more noise.

If you don't see an advantage in dynamic range in MFDB:s just be happy, you just saved a quite a few kilobox.

Something that surprises me is that there is a lot of talk about dynamic range but very little about lens flare, which in my view also affects dynamic range.

Erik

Lisa,

I'll give you my real world assessment, based on Aptus 22 and Phase P30+ files versus the new breed of 14 bit 35mm digital (1ds3, D3, soon to be 5DII). For stills I shoot for magazines. Glossy mags. I'm shooting portraits, fashion and beauty.

For editorial work, it doesn't matter. A 5D or P30+, whatever, it all looks the same when compressed into a dynamic range of a web press printed magazine page. Its a fact. The only reason to shoot MFDB on an editorial is for the look of medium format. I sold my P30+ for many reasons, although I loved the back. One was that I couldn't justify the cost for editorial, which what I mainly shoot. I usually work with an OK budget. I can rent a back, mark it up, or even better, just shoot some 400nc or 160c, cut out much of the post work.

For commercial work, I can rent whatever I want with a tech. I just don't shoot enough where an MFDB is required, such as cosmetics and hair, to justify carrying the cost.

Another consideration is that shooting with MFDB is a pain. From ISO limitations to the Frankencamera problems with sync, shutter lag, lock ups, etc, its just not a fluid process, although the Phase backs are as good as it gets. Shooting film is easier. Shooting 35mm digital is even easier. Less pain more pictures.

To get specific w/r/t your question regarding dynamic range, well, the P30+ is a little better than the 1ds3. The Dalsa backs (Sinar and Leaf) are a little better than the P30+. The MFDB files still show cleaner shadows, sort of. They are more pliable in post, and for this your retoucher will thank you. Color is better with the MFDB. It almost matches well scanned film.

We just ordered, or pre-ordered, four 5dmkII cameras. The files I've seen show the same smoothness that you see in the P30 files, and I've just seen full size jpgs. All that being said, I plan on picking up a used P21+ real cheap in a year or so, because I do really like the look of MFDB files. Now that MFDB are coming down in price and appear to be going after usability to a degree, they are headed in the right direction.

And my personal favorite obfuscation, Canon's use of "APS-H" for the format of the 1D series (never mind that APS-H is a failed 16:9 film format whose dimensions almost nobody knows.)

Let me take up Michael's idea of eschewing film-think. Stop describing sensor formats in terms of vaguely similar film formats and just call a spade a spade: 13x17.3mm, 15x22.5mm, 16x24mm, 19x29mm, 24x36mm, 30x45mm, 33x44mm, 36x48mm, 40x54mm, 36x56mm, etc.
SLR users can deal with one or two numbers.