First of all my apologies for not being able to report daily and with details: times are very busy and I have found time only this evening to get online.

For those interested, here some snapshots taken during the first 3 days at our booth at the Photokina in Cologne, DE.

- general views of the Sinar booth
- details of the new Digaron 5.6/23mm and the new Schneider 150mm AF PQS
- new 90° prism finder on Sinar Hy6 65

Thierry

Thierry, you owe me a beer. I plan to come and collect. Soon. Very soon.

Edmund

I never forget a promise!

Tomorrow would be fine for me.

in the meantime: cheers!
Thierry

Nice camera .. BUT those Briese Parabolic Umbrellas hanging around everywhere make me drewl!!!!!:+}
Nice!! and the camera looks ok too..
Snook

Thanks for posting, but... where are the Swiss gnomes? I was imagining something more like this:

How much for that AF 150/4 PQS?? I can't find one of those anywhere!

you imagine right, but that happens only in the local beerstubs here in Cologne, in the evenings (nights) after the exhibition!


Thierry

Thierry, where's your mug shot in the pictures you posted above? nice to see who we're talking to

I can't help but notice the irony of Sinar using the Briese Focus Reflector , considering the Sinar-Broncolor relationship and the Briese-Broncolor fracas.

What gives?

Thierry,

Coffee or soft drinks only at the Sinar booth ? I am deeply disappointed.



Edmund

The stand of Sinar at the Photokina what so little that it was nothing to see, excepts the new models. No 4/5 or 8/10, no Sinar m HR28..., no DB shutters, no film holders, no CMV, CAB or Sinaron digital lenses to see anyway.

A very poor and strange demonstration.

But there was - of course - an asiatic model to make a very conventional show. Like Hasselblad, or Canon, Nikon, Olympus, etc... Like an autoshow in Tokyo. A very good period for the asiatic look.

For me, the Photokina should be the best place to see all the professional products, because local dealers (when they exist) can't have this products in stock.

My deception is deep.

PdF

There was a HR 28 on Sinar m ! Sorry.

But, where was all the rest ?

PdF

havent you seen the artec, the 23mm lens, exposure with white shading , the hy accessories, new lenses, the spirit back, ME , and so on?

Of course I did, and with happyness !

But some absences (blackouts ?) are unbelievable...

PdF

Philippe,

There was (and still is) following products displayed and shown in live situations:

- Sinar arTec with eMotion 75 back and VHR 5.6/23mm

- Sinar arTec with eMotion 75 back and Sinaron Digital 70mm

- Sinar m with Sinaron Digital HR 28mm

- Sinar p3 with Schneider shutter and lens, LC-shutter, sliding adapter and multishot back eVolution 75 H

- Sinar Hy6 65 camera system with 180 AFD lens and 90° prism finder

- Sinar Hy6 with Sinarback eSprit 65, 80mm AFD lens and waist level finder

- Sinar Hy6 with Sinarback eMotion 75 LV, 150mm AF lens and 45° finder

- Sinar Hy6 with Sinarback eSprit 65 in LIVE-SHOOTING with all Hy6 lenses and accessories

- Sinar calibrated DNG Workflow, from shooting to print

- 2 stations with Sinar eXposure 6.1 capture software for Mac

- 1 station with Sinar eXposure 6.1 capture software for Windows

Where is the problem?!

Best regards,
Thierry

I would not to be involved in controversy.

I prefer to stop my interventions in this topic, because I would'nt be sarcastic.

Please excuse me, Thierry, when I'm too vindictive.

"Qui aime bien, châtie bien !"

PdF

I was a bit disappointed with the Sinar presentation as well. Not so much because of "missing" equipment, but the design of the playground did not "embrace" me at all. Especially the closed "office" in the back, with the darkened windows gave a rather "unheimisch" feeling. Like you had to climb up to a dark castle which wasn't going to open its gates. The lighting of the entire place was very poor too (dim and yellow), especially that Hy6 corner with the miniature boat. And speaking Hy6: Leaf had all available lenses for the AFi and a lot of accessories on display, whereas Sinar only had a (very) limited selection. Not inviting at all. The arTec corner was a bit better though, with a good setup to have a look at the camera and getting explanation at the same time. The only thing I was missing there was a good opportunity to get to see the camera from the front before you got there. It would have been nice to place one high up behind the demonstrators as well. Just my personal opinion of course.

as you say, EPd, your opinion. And actually only a question of taste nothing worse to be argued and discussed, IMO.

I would rather like to argue your ""Sinar had a very limited selection of lenses for the Hy6": you must be joking (or blind). We had all the available (new) selection of lenses for the Hy6 (AF, non-AF, AFD) on display, behind the setups. The lenses selected for the setups were the newest AFD's and the new 150 AF, and it was possible to ask the demonstrators to test another focal length.

As for accessories, they were all on the cameras, including the 90° finder.

A pity that you have not introduced yourself to me or ask to meet me. It would have been a plaisure to show you around.



Best regards,
Thierry

Thierry,

I have been hanging around there for quite some time, but you were in deep conversation with someone, so I moved on after having seen ALL that there was to see. Yes, I saw the lenses in the back displays too, but did you see what Leaf had in their booth? Bellows, macro rings, more lenses (also older types). My impressions of the athmosphere are about taste, naturally, but when I go to see a movie in a theatre and I don't like it, does the film maker have to say: "that's his problem"? Or could he perhaps give it a second thought and try to analyse what could have been improved to his film? For the next time, maybe.

EPd,

sorry about that and for not having been available: you should/could have asked for me.

You are right, concerning the booth and improvements: we actually collect all remarks, internal or from visitors, and discuss them for the next exhibition. But so far we have got a majority of positive response to the atmosphere part of it. So that's why I say it's a question of taste, not to sy that I don't bother about other tastes.

Best regards,
Thierry

Hello, Thierry! If you do not mind I have some questions:

I do not see the Evolution back in your listing. Did Sinar not have shown that one? Maybe because it is still not working properly and they still did not manage to establish Exposure support for the 75H??


Best regards

Nico, Berlin

Hi all,
I think that Sinar booth was nice. I saw everything that i want to see. I don;t hear all the time " PERFECTLY " for answer to my questions. On Phase booth i hear it all the time. Another thing, they show me everything what i want to see and tell me about everything. Big P like PRO. ( I was working on Hasselblad booth during fairs) Leaf and Phase guys don't want to talk about theirs product. It was a little bit strange. On Sinar booth you could also met and talk with Mr. Briese about theirs lamps. And of corse see this nice equipment in action. So it was very nice place, where we could see everything and be informed about everything.


Freak

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Work hard and be nice to people
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There was the eVolution 75h on the p3. The camera was instaled on a very nice Foba motorized stand,operated from the CatureShop. (both , the stand and the 75h).
Yevgeny
p[quo name='Nicolas Flamel' date='Oct 8 2008, 12:57 AM' post='227534']
Hello, Thierry! If you do not mind I have some questions:

I do not see the Evolution back in your listing. Did Sinar not have shown that one? Maybe because it is still not working properly and they still did not manage to establish Exposure support for the 75H??


Best regards

Nico, Berlin
[/quote]

Dear Nico,

I did forget to list the station with the eVolution 75 H Sinarback: it WAS displayed. It was mounted on a Sinar p3 camera, together with the Schneider shutter, on a setup.

The eVolution 75 H is integrated and supported by Sinar eXposure 6.1.

Best regards,
Thierry

Sorry, Thierry, I missed that one. I am a bit annoyed bebause Exposure is still not available for the Evolution amd my 54M. And Capture Shop is still not working properly sometimes (Shortcuts do not work, crashdown when quitting...)
I am still waiting for the centerfold problem with the 75H which occasionally occurs to be solved. And I wait for more than one year now! What I do see is that Sinar celebrate themselves and their new products whilst the old ones not all work as they should.

Best regards

Nico

Too many products. Maybe Sinar should just concentrate on revving the Hy6 body, get a royalty from Leaf, design and market lenses, provide after sales service for the mechanics, and get out of the back business where everyone redesigns electronics and software around the same sensors.

Edmund

If Nikon and Canon release their version of MF Camera late this or next year, it will be
hard to deal with current/available MF market based on what's left on the table....

Hasselblad and Phase hold the edge so far obviously because they're available on every corner
of the world at any time...

However, Hy6 is an excellent camera and I would make it available everywhere and to everyone.....
but to do that and not only reach every corner of the World.... to survive, Hy6 needs boost and PHASEONE could come handy!!!

Nothing against Leaf or Sinar since I own number of their systems too!!!

Dear Nico,

I am not sure what Sinar did celebrate or is celebrating.

Coming to your questions:

- I have informed that we have decided to release eXposure in 3 weeks, end of October: we wish to release BOTH Mac AND PC eXposure version 6.1 at the same time and all configurations have to be tested.

- as said, eXposure 6.1 does support the eVolution 75H.

Best regards,
Thierry

I don't agree with you, Edmund.

People like to use the same material for a long time. Then could it be valuable for some works. It's impossible to buy new platforms every year.

The Hy6 is a very good material (I've tried it), but unusable for my job. I only work with a tecnical camera in 4 (or 16) shots mode. I would appreciate a best return of Sinar for this kind of material.

Sinar promised, two years ago, versions of eXposure for 54H and 43H backs. Whe are still waiting... They said they are too busy with the H6 !

PdF

A marriage made in Heaven:

1. Using CaptureOne software (the best).
2. Using Hy6 camera (very good).
3. Using Phase backs (with better LCD?).
4. USA presence (needed by Sinar).

I would welcome that.

I just don't see it happening, in this radically shrinking economy. Not enough volume. Like it or not, it's quickly becoming a 5DII world out there. I even heard my Dentist talking about the Canon recently. You KNOW it's bad when talk turns from Leica/Sinar to Canon. But with Universal Health Care coming soon, the Dentists will be back in business. Trust me, the entire country of Denmark and Sweden are banking on Obama.

Be careful. every time someone mentions a 5d, these forums go into catatonic fits about the loss of quality, the loss of standards, the low professionalism that the photography industry has sunk to.

Of course most of the people that soap box this aren't shooting large projects with millions of dollars, euros and pounds on the line in production and media.

Of course every professional photographer in the world will probably have a 5d Mark II in their bag in 3 months and if Nikon or Canon makes a medium format camera you can bet those will also sell off the shelf in record numbers.

Like it or not if you go into most studios in NY today, if medium format is being used it's probably on a Hasselblad camera with a Phase back, maybe a 1/3 to 1/4 using a Leaf or Hasselblad back. You would have to search very hard to find someone using a Sinar and even further still to find someone using a mamiya 645, regardless if it's versions I, II, or III.

Once they go outside it usually with a Hasselblad camera or a Canon.

These are the photographers that use the rental system and they really don't care or know anything about digital other than what the rental tech hands them. Also these are the photographers that are producing the best work in the world, but even the best work in the world is getting hit hard on budget today.

Look at the background videos of every Vogue, Vanity Fare or Elle production and all you see are Canon and Hasselblad cameras. No wonder Hasselblad wants part of that camera back business and if they keep dropping their prices, they're going to get it.

I don't look for medium format to die, but I do know that if the prices keep going up and projects become more limited, or budget restricted, then that goes all the way down the line to the tech who will also have to find ways to lower their overhead. If Mamiya thinks any digital tech house is going to scrap their H1's and H2's and pay $4,000 for Mamiya lenses, or double that for Leica lenses, then somebody is reading the wrong tea leaves.

Maybe not their backs, but Hasselblad cameras are the standard in the medium format world. Now, Hasselblad has addressed costs, everybody else hasn't. The only thing Hasselblad hasn't done is give a digital tech a reason to throw away their phase backs, because Hasselblad still has the same low iso, same sensors, even worse software than Phase one, so why change until the Phase backs wear out.

We can make all the wish lists we want, phase software, HY6 cameras, Hasselblad prices, but until any of this equipment is in the rental houses and digital tech firms it's all irrelevant.

Until Sinar has their software working, gets more presence in the rental world and finds a way not to take 2 years to make a cable release that camera will also be irrelevant.

Unless Phase wakes up and realizes that $41,000 digital backs, even with a free Mamiya won't fly in the new world economy, then they are trying very hard to make that brand irrelevant also.

Leaf and Sinar can make all the back room deals they want but rather than offer Sinar a deal on the new Leaf back, Leaf would be a lot better off offering the customer the same discount.

The whole hy6 system being limited to two brands of backs is just insane. Prior to digital, nobody would have ever made an expensive film camera that only worked with Ilford and Agfa film.

That would have never cleared committee.

These forums are full of self interest. Hasselblad lovers, Hasselblad haters, dealers, techs, manufacturer reps, seminar givers, lighting instructors and all of them want us to absolutely believe we can't make a photograph without spending another $15,000 for a new camera upgrade that doesn't do anything that much different than the previous model.

Today, it's all about money and getting the job done in the most efficient way possible.

Dear bcooter,

With all due respect, let me correct some points:


The software (eXposure) IS working and out: not all backs are integrated, but nevertheless you should try it out before bashing it down.


Sinar DOES AS WELL have something to offer in this cooperation: read the press release carefully.


I doubt the fault can be given to Sinar (understand Jenoptik) on this one.


Your own opinion ("... manufacturer reps ... want us to believe ...") , I have heard different ones: as for myself, if I would have to act like this, I would not spend one minute on any forum, but rather go out, demonstrate and sell.

Best regards,
Thierry

I'm sorry PDF - I meant they should drop the back side of things, stop releasing new backs. It simply doesn't make sense anymore to have different back models if more R&D s required for each.

Edmund

I don't know about Denmark or Sweden, but when President Bush took office the world had a functioning economy and no major war. Now he's leaving office, there are two major wars, one in Afghanistan and one in Irak, with US airstrikes in a third country, Pakistan, on an everyday basis. Turkey, a NATO member, is now fighting an insurgency based in Iraqi Kurdistan but attacking inside Turkey, and armed with US weapons, which the US claims are misappropriated. America is frightened of terror attacks and with occasional reports of torture by US soldiers and contractors in black holes like Guantanamo, America has lost the moral high ground it could unreservedly claim in the year 2000. And the economy is in tatters, with high oil prices, major bank failures and house foreclosures by the hundreds of thousands. No one can say that Mr. Bush is responsible, but he sure has been unlucky. No wonder that observers in foreign countries hope that a new president, any new president, be it Obama or McCain will bring better management and better luck to a most deserving country. And better economic circumstances to the rest of the world. No politics involved - the guy has done a really bad job let's just hope he can be replaced before the damage gets too bad.

Edmund

Big Cooter,

Hall of Fame post. You live in the real world.

Yet, of course, Thierry fights every word you say.

That's why Sinar is where they're at.

gwhift,


Am not in war, even less fighting, simply spending my time to correct some either purposely or by mistake wrong information (about Sinar).



And where is Sinar?

Best regards,
Thierry

Why on earth would they do that? The latest eSprit 65 back is the most advanced medium format back yet made. If that is a sign of things to come from Sinar, maybe some of the other players should hang up their gloves. The fact that they don't have the biggest market share now is no indication of what could happen in the future, or the quality of their products now.

Why on earth do people keep assuming that Canikon will be able to take over the MF market just like that? Unlike all the other platforms, they will have no exisiting lenses, so they would need to launch a new platform with at least 5 or 6 lenses to begin with, and everything would have to be bought new (this is the problem Leica has with the S2). This already puts them at a massive disadvantage compared to the existing players. Then there is the issue of lens quality - how many people out there would trust Canon to make a wide angle lens that is sharp from corner to corner on a large sensor? You must be kidding. (Leica glass, on the other hand, will be taken very seriously). Or the 'per pixel' quality? They've never made a sensor to match the sheer IQ of even a 3 year old MFDB. They have a LOT to prove. If they feel that the whole industry will move to larger sensors then perhaps they will do it but I doubt the system will be anything to get excited about, and it won't be cheap. Not for many years at least.



Hmmm, there isn't a Hasselblad dealer or a Phase dealer in this country at all. Not all the world is like NY! Why does a dealer have to be next door anyway? I got my back couriered overnight from Germany. No big deal.



I doubt the Hy6 needs Phase at all. Look at the recent poll of which platform people would buy into if given the choice today, and the Hy6 leads the poll. Hasselblad and Phase got an early lead with past products (deservedly so), but they haven't done anything interesting lately if you ask me.

Everyone should read bcooter's post quoted below. Everyone thinking that a new back or camera system will better their photography should read the post. Take everything you read on the web with a grain of salt. You have people on this board and all the other gear forums pushing their agenda one way or the other, which is different than sharing an opinion. Its marketing, even if they don't work for a company. They tell you how shitty the Canons are, how unworkable 1/125 sync is, how good photography can't be produced without a leaf shutter and at the minimum 31 megapixels. When you see the work they produce with all this gear its technicaly good but really midling stuff. Don't spend the money on a back if your book is lacking or you don't know how to light. The difference between a 5D and a P30 aint that much. If you need the quality of an MFDB for a job, rent. If the budget doesn't allow for a big rental, well, the 5D2/5D/1ds/1ds2/1ds3/D1x etc will have to do. And guess what? If you shoot well and have a certain level of taste, your work will be well received. A back and the whole system soaks up too much working capital. Spend the money on something that will improve your book.

Standards can change, and quickly. It wasn't so long ago that the Hass H platform didn't even exist.



A very US-centric point of view. I have yet to meet a photographer in Europe who rents his camera. They might exist but they are an insignificant minority. NY might be different, but even in the US not every city has a pro rental shop with MFDBs.



Sinar Exposure works fine, thanks. I used Capture One for years too, and I shave no preference for either. They both just work.

The cable release was up to F&H to produce, not Sinar.

Rentals are not easy to find in most parts of the world, but more importantly I think a photographer has no hope of getting the most out of a MFDB without spending quite some time with it, experimenting with the files and workflow, and testing the capabilities. Who wants to be playing around with an unfamiliar back on an important job?

I see it here time and time again - people try out a demo MFDB for a few hours and have all sorts of problems with processing the files. MFDBs are not made that way - they need lots of user input and in return you get the highest quality and flexibility. If you want an 'auto everything' camera, MFDB is not for you.

hey dr. R.. thanks for the world analysis but who asked?? I will spare you my thoughts on the French and their moral terra firma on which they stand and you try to not pontificate..
I realize that Europeans have things so buttoned-up and civilized so I know I am asking a lot to just sit back and watch us flounder.. but do try to contain your vast knowledge and insight, stick to what this forum is about.

Edited to add: This applies to fashion. I know that other genres are different.

There is a benefit to owning, surely, but the type of production that requires and MFDB should have a budget for a tech and a retoucher. The tech will tell you how to get the shot you want, while you can work with a retoucher who will develope the file to the look you want. I'm not against ownership of a MFDB, I just want people to know its not important to making a good photograph, and more importantly, can actually be detrimental to acheiving a great photograph due to handling/iso/flexability issues. An MFDB threatens a career as well, in that all that working calital is tied up in a back rather than in front of the camera. You would do much better to produce some high end photography and shoot it with an RZ on Fuji 160C or a 5D/1ds/1ds2/1ds3/d2x and travel, go on look sees on another continent, shoot editorials on another continent. That work will get you commercial jobs that pay more in three days than you made in your entire 20's. Then buy a back, maybe. It still doesn't make business sense to own.

Thank you for this answer, Edmund : I totaly agree with your opinion.

PdF

Paul

you are right about this forum not being another huffingtonpost.com - still you might agree that whenever something important happens in the US it ultimately has a strong effect on the rest of the world (Fannie / Freddie / Irak ...). So you may understand that Europeans have a hard time "sitting back"

Never mind

Frank

TMARK & Bcooter - well said.

/Frank

I seem to remember that until now, all Sinar backs were adaptable to other camera manufacturers, and still are. Im no Phase or Hasselblad expert so correct me if i'm wrong but aren't or weren't they dedicated backs?
With reference to most of what you are saying, it boils down to Quality vs Money. I remember that most photographers bought their equipment based on the quality the equipment would produce and this is what created revenue, largely because people knew what quality was. now there is so much sacrifice in the digital market that everyone is debating about which camera system is better, when in fact it seems to be a justification of thier own equipment. My understanding is as it is the case where I'm from is that the client is uneducated or has a preference. Please dont get me wrong here, I am not slandering anyone but just saying the way i see it.

I live in South Africa where Photography and media is so minuscule compared to the US and Europe and we have a really small studio in comparison to other professional photographers in our city, yet the clients that leave us for photographers with a better name (through referrals and marketing), the client comes straight back because the other photographers could not give them the quality. We make our money! With regards to software, the Sinar software is probably the easiest to use because it is not an image manipulation tool in the sense that it does not allow you to add effects as you would in Photoshop. what would be the use of Photoshop then. Captureshop an eXposure allows the photographer to capture what the camera sees not what the photographer knows the client wants to see. If we are comparing film to digital here, since when did Ilford or Agfa allow you to decide whether to export your image with a preset!

Bottom line is that it boils down to quality, people can still see quality even if they are ignorant. Us as informed photographers know when software is compensating for camera shortfalls and lastly we all have our own preference of out-put.

yes we are all connected on some levels..and on that note, some good news for the americans.. the dollar getting stronger against the euro - should make it a small bit easier for me get that euro equipment I know I shouldn't want.. but do.

I had 2.5 of the last 3 years in europe and all the while I just sat there and listened to all the anti american dribble that gets put out there.. cause I was in their country, I would just let them spew..I guess now being back in the states, I don't have the stomach for it.

No worries Paul,

not every European is anti american as well as not every american behaves as if they do not care about the rest of the planet

cheers

F.

... and I like your "Urban Landscape" portfolio

/F