Just back from 9 days working with Hasselblad on their stand at Photokina and wanted to share some thoughts on the show.

First off the price drops announced on Monday.

It seems to me that the price of MFDBs has long been a subject for discussion (complaint) here on Luminous landscape and I'm surprised at some of the negative comments expressed. I was especially disappointed to see Michael use the phrase "fire sale" with reference to the Hasselblad price decrease announcement.

Michael to his credit has always been very clear about his close relationship with Phase One and I thank him for that, but do wonder if he has a slightly negative outlook on things Hasselblad. I should point out that I am a long time Hasselblad user, I run a large user group for owners, Alpha and Beta test software and was paid by Hasselblad to be at the show, so my opinions certainly are biased.

Michael wrote:

"As consumers we all like lower prices. But what will be the cost of this to the companies that make them and who find their margins and sales drying up? Desperation is contagious."

Dealers have always had lower margins on upgrades, and upgrades have always been the majority of sales made, with the new pricing the upgrade paths no longer exist. The dealers will be pleased about this as upgrades are complex and heavily discounted.

For existing users it would appear at first glance that the removal of the upgrade program would seem to be very bad news, however there is a rather significant silver lining.

Here is an indicative scenario:

Joe User wishes to trade his Hasselblad 22 product against a 39. Previously he could have traded his 22 in and paid 12 600 euro to upgrade to a 39. Now he now longer has a trade in but can buy a 39MP outright for 15 000.

For 2400 euro more he gets a 39 and can keep his 22 as a backup, which I think is a pretty compelling deal.

As for Michael's use of the word "desperation" I think if you had been at Photokina you would have disagreed. The stand was very impressive, (I'll post some pictures in the next few days) and very busy. The sales figures for the show were absolutely extraordinary but I'm not sure the actual figure is supposed to be public knowledge, so you'll just have to trust me when I say it was substantial.

On to products.

I spent most of my time showing the HTS and Phocus 1.1.
The HTS is a very nice piece of kit (the one we were shooting with still has a few tweaks to be made) and 'Blad are expecting to ship in January (hopefully to me first:)).
The amazing thing (to me) about the HTS is that the movements (tilt/swing, rise/fall/shift and rotation) are read by sensors in the HTS and embedded in the files meta data so that Phocus can preform lens corrections. The distortion correction is particularly impressive. The corrections work with any (of the 5 supported) lenses and or extension tube combinations.

Its also worth noting that the HTS works mechanically on any H body and digital back but without the significant benefit of Lens Corrections.

Phocus 1.1 is a solid improvement on 1.01 with performance enhancements and new features. Should be available in a week or so for download.

The new zoom (35-90 4/5.6 HCD) is great, about 250 grams lighter than the 50-110, thinner (but about the same length) and the AF is about twice as fast. The price is pretty eye-watering however (I'm told due to high R&D and use of aspherical glass).

I shot quite a bit with the new 50MP but cannot discuss some of it's clever features as yet as they are not quite confirmed.

Nick-T

Good to hear the Photokina went well. I wanted to go on sunday but eventually decided to stay in my bed and get some sleep. Maybe next show that is a bit closer

I agree the abolisment of the trade-up program will be a good thing, eventually. Still I am very happy I can trade-up my 384 towards the 39MS under the old program

Especially considering I already have a backup CF39.

Is there any sight on stuff like a CF50? Or a 3" screen on the CF? I know I seem to be the odd one out that is using something other than the H3 but I am sure there are more of us

The HTS looks promising. Does it work with the H2F as well (with auto lens corrections naturally)? I assume it does but it would be nice to get this confirmed.

Thanks for your report Nick-T!
May I ask you about the tethering performance of the H3dII together with Phocus 1.1?
As far as that goes I think I am quite spoiled using Phase normally, but the new pricing once again raises the question if the Hasselblad system is becoming a real alternative.
So if you shoot tethered, is there any buffer to hit or can you just shoot non stop till your harddrive is full like with c1? How quick do the previews show up and does the system keep it's speed or does it slow down after some frames? Is there a limit of captures in the shooting folder?

Anybody else who uses the H3dII for fashion is of course welcome to chime in here as well.

thanks,
martin

Thank you for so delicately putting it, as we all do tread gently for comments like yours. I have been mulling for at least a few days over the same comments by Michael, as I too was quite disaapointed, though not surprised. Not surprised as Michael has in past (see his comments @ Hasselblad H3D) his total disdain, abhorrence toward everything Hasselblad. True he always ends his comments by mentioning he uses Hasselblad H series. I personally think his comments DO imply that Hasselblad is in financial trouble, hence the term "fire sale". But I am sure as everybody is quite aware, that as products gets more advanced, they do drop in prices. Just like our obsolete computers, film cameras & last years new fangled MPs cameras. Also R & D is recovered.
Au Contraire, I strongly believe opposite is true, Phase One's alliance with Leica S series, shows that Phase One is again betting on the wrong horse. For life of me I can't believe too many S series Leica will be sold, other than testers, as they seem like ludicrously expensive for a product, that is just being developed. To quote James Russell,"Really what does it offer that a working photographer has to have?"
I know Michael does not approve of rumours on this forum for which I applaude him, but there sure was innuendo or should I say "in your endo, Hasselblad."
I think it was brilliant of Hasselblad to drop their prices, as you don't know what H4D will bring? Tilting LCD screen like Leaf, Wifi capabilities, like Leaf. A complete new size sensor - left overs from Leica, or just preparing for the storm from economic meltdown, that may be compounded by Nikon MX/D3X ....
But most of all Hasselblad is doing, what every ....Microsoft, Google does - make it tougher for competion to make profit - Business 101.

All I care to add to this thread is that I call them the way I see them.

If this rubs some people (or companies) the wrong way, then that's just the way it is.

I avoid regurgitated press releases, company "positions" or popular (safe) positions. I like some products (and companies) and have issues with others.

It all comes down to a matter of informed opinion.

That's why they pay me the big bucks.

Michael

I also was at the Hasselblad boot and it was impressive. Nick explained the features of the HTS 1,5. I was very pleased to see how perfect this device works for most needed shooting scenarios. I will keep my TC but will ad the HTS to my working horses.
And for me, I could only jump as i heard about the new prices!!! Yep that's me making the jump

Think about your bad back... this is going to cost you dearly

Michael,

No offense, but calling price cuts "desperation" is about the dumbest thing I've heard.

This isn't a temporary price drop to boost sales for the quarter at a loss.

Rather it exposes just how bloated margins are on digital backs.

Hopefully it will also end the arrogant notion that a $45,000 digital back is better than a $33,000 digital back just because it costs more....

Is it desperation that both Canon and Nikon continue to make better cameras that cost the same or less than the last version?

If Canon operated the way that MFDB makers have operated the 1DsMark3 would cost at least $16,000.

If RED operated the way that MFDB makers have operated the RED would cost at least $200,000 and come with claims about how superior it was to Panavision.

I'm a Leaf user. I frankly would have preferred to see Leaf beat Hassy to the punch. Rather than selling backs to Sinar at a discount, why not just sell them to consumers for that price?

Hasselblad's pricing is hardly "desperation."

Desperation is clinging to the notion that consumers aren't bright enough to realize that being over-charged doesn't make a product better...

If you've been working for 9 days on Hassy's stand, then with all due respect you are hardly in the position of an objective observer.

A 40% price drop indicates one of two things. Either it is a fire sale to win business and market share, or there has been blatant overcharging. Maybe its a bit of both, but I'm inclined to agree with Brian and run with the second option. Either way, you don't normally see 40% price reductions unless its in the US housing market...

Quentin

Nick already mentioned being biased

Naturally a price drop needs to be financed somewhere. Everybody is now clinging on the 40% but frankly the price drop is more moderate than that. Yeah... maybe 40% is to start with one of the products at the absolute highest suggested retail price. None of these products have been selling for that amount.

I haven't done calculations on it but it seems to be more in the range of 20-30% but there might be a thing in there that is 40% discounted not sure. To me the 40% seems a marketing slogan.

Another part where this price is financed is from dropping the trade-up program. Don't get me wrong, many people scooped up cheap backs solely for the purpose of trading up. I am quite convinced ending this program will be beneficial to both Hasselblad as well as new users. For cheap schmucks like me it is an initial bummer However on the other hand this will create a larger 2nd hand market as well for those that initial do not want to invest into new equipment. I am also pretty sure this move will expand the market for MFDB's.

Putting it down as a move out of desparation? I for one am not convinced it is, even if it is I find it a move that shows guts and a willingness to change the status quo.

Was it iPod or iPhone, that they drop their prices avg 33%+/- & yet they are successful. If you were to do the actual math, than price drops are;
H3DII-31 $17,995 (was $26,995) - 33.3%
H3DII-39 $21,995 (was $33,995) - 35.3%
H3DII-50 $27,995 (was $39,995) - 30%
H3DII-60 $35,995 (New Product) -
H3DII-39MS $30,995 (was $43,995) - 29.55%
CFII-39 $19,995 (was $27,995) - 28.57%
CFII-39MS $28,995 (was $37,995) - 23.68%
Really, the most important thing is compare these prices with Phase One's prices, even though I like the Phase One ( they have the same sensor as Hasselblad), I have better things to do with my money. Also if your business model is getting loan for your equipment, then read the headlines today, credit WILL be difficult to come by in future.

What you have to think about is that you can get a P45+ or a Leaf or Sinar product for the same price. There is just no real "discounts" anouncements, but ask a dealer and you perhaps will be suprised on what quotes you get. At least that is the experience I have from Germany. Nobody is paying the list price of (I think it still is) 30,000EUR for a P45+.

I would be very surprised if it isn't the case that, now that they have a complete system very much up and running (this wasn't the case just a few months ago. It took nearly 6 months for my 39Mp MS to arrive. Also, a few lenses in the range are very recent.) that Hasselblad are using their extremely deep pockets to flex their muscles, competitively speaking.

Don't forget who owns them!

D.

It obviously is somewhat of a marketing slogan as if you shop around most dealers will discount, even prior to this annoucement.

Still, from an end users standpoint I think this Hasselblad annoucement is more than just a discount, it is new think in the world of medium format digital and maybe, just maybe digital cameras will go back to being sold the way film cameras were, where you walked into a camera store and bought a camera.

No secret handshakes, no having to know who is the one or two authorized dealers in your area and probably a lot less haggeling on price and no more dealing with an upgrade system that makes it financially unattractive to keep your old back and buy a new one.

It's not just that this allows for backups but allows you to own even different backs or different cameras and backs, as you can come closer to affording to keep your current back and camera and buy a new blad without breaking the bank.

(never underestimate the need for backups).

I really dislike the upgrade system because once in, it's very expensive to make a change and if you use something like the Contax, your back down the list as to when you get your upgrade, sometimes way down the lists.

Let's face it even two h3dII-31's (did I write this correctly and if I did what a mouthfull), costs just slightly more than where one 22mpx back was a few years ago and this includes two bodies and two lens.

The only thing that would make me feel better about this is if the Hasselblad (and all the backs) would work on any camera, because with more options and lower prices medium format would grow rather than contract.

From a professional standpoint, it probably shouldn't matter what non professionals buy, but if the Hasselblad becomes more available (and given the fact the name has the bling factor) I think they will sell a lot more cameras which means more R+D for the line which means more options for the professional.

Let's be realistitic, if Canon and Nikon didin't have the consumer business to amortize their development a D3 or 1ds3 would probably be double the costs, have single point autofocus and top out at 800 iso, if they existed at all.

So I see all of this a good thing, not a negative and it might just be the slap in the face that medium format needs to become more consumer friendly.

Given all of this, I'm probably not Hasselblad's or any medium format companies target market as what I presntly use is paid for and works and until medium format gets cleaner higher iso, (if they ever do) I probably won't buy another medium format back of any brand again, but if I was starting fresh, the blad would be the first on my list.

The prices are good and the lens line is not only extensive and buyable in most markets and there are rentals of the H lenses in just about every city. Also Hasselblad has that 2.2 100mm which is perfect for about 75% of what I shoot.

The only two things I think Hasselblad should address is getting their software out faster and with more information (well, I guess this holds true for all medium format companies) and they should make the H series camera back fit on the V system because there is a lot of V-systems still in use and this would give even more usability.

Regardless of any of this, I wish them the best of success with this strategy because I think this is good for all of us.

JR

Yoh Nickus!

Great Blurb--too much Blad not enough Seitz--where's my report I've been waiting for?

Des

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=mZyWM_zpVuw&feature=related

I really don't want to get sucked into this debate, but I'll add one thought.

Talk to a VAR who sells MF digital backs, and ask them about the cost of sales and support, and the margins that they need to provide these. Things aren't as simple as they might appear.

A box seller might do OK with 5-10% margin. Unless a VAR makes at least 20 points, and preferably more, they aren't going to stay in business long, and then where will you buy your back from?

And who's going to come to your studio and help out when something goes wrong, and where are you going to get a loaner when you have a raft load of expensive models and a pissed off art director breathing down your neck, and your back goes south on a Friday afternoon?

Michael

Every time I see the H-series it just blows my mind how Hasselblad could make such an ugly camera, especially looking at their elegant heritage. Ok, bring on the flames

Who says Hasselblad's dealers aren't making 20%?

Nick-T

Michael,

With all due respect I'm not against the dealer system, though if a photographer has their s^%t together they should have backups and know what to do.

From the professional side, especially in the large markets, a lot of photographers have moved into the world of not really knowing their equipment, (not just cameras) and rely on a room full of "specialists" to do everything.

Some of that is good, though regardless of anyone's personal business system, I think it's almost lazy that a photograher doesn't know how to work a digital camera and the software.

To begin with they are much easier than before. Even ol' 3.78 with Phase is pretty much a plug and play system once you've spent a day learning the software.

Now as far as my system, I invest in my business including equipment. From a lot of photographers I've been told for years this is foolish as the thought is rent it and "let the client pay for it", which is fine, I guess as long as the market is strong.

In the challanged times we have now, that becomes more difficult and surely less profitable for the photogrpaher.

For years I've had a system where every large project I buy something, maybe lights, maybe rollers, maybe a lens or a camera body but I buy it and roll it into the produciton.

Today the budgets I see from clients are still good, but very bottom line based and if you own your own equipment (and know how to work it) your in a much more competiitive and profitable situation.

As far as dealers and their tech help, well some are good, some are not so good, but the loaner system just doesn't work under large production. After all who has a day to wait for a backup or even 4 hours.

Once again I appreciate the good dealers like Capture Integration and PPR and even Karen at Samys, (I am sure there are many others), but I can promise you if my Phase backs go down and whether I'm shooting in a studio in culver city or El Mirage they are not going to get me a camera in 30 minutes probably not in a day, especially in a Contax mount.

If you have your own backups and know your s*&t, you don't have a room full of pissed off art directors or models standing around talking on thier cell phones.

Still my way (and I'm not sayng my way is the best way, its just the way that works for me) is to know how to use what I own and though I hire gaffers, grip, assistants, swings, etc. I would not be comfortable not knowing how to do the artistic and technical aspects of my job.

As far as learning these systems go, if someone can't go on the web, download or read a few turtorials (yours included) and not learn how to work this stuff, then why become a photographer in the first place?

I commend Hasselblad's price system and hope it continues. It will put more pressure on the makers to make the euqipment eaiser to work, easier to own and allow the photogrpaher affordable backups.

In fact from your business model, I would think the more people that own equipment, the more market you have to sell your instructional videos. If there were 25,000 hasselblad, or phase users you could turn out videos on how to work those systems.


JR

Now I heard it all. Because of your "sky is falling" rhetoric, we the hard working photographers should pay automatically extra money to Phase, because they charge us more, that means they MUST be able to service the back better than Hasselblad, who makes the backs, the cameras, full line of lenses. Really you should read your own diatribe. You really do so well in so..o many other aspect of photography, as J.Russell aptly pointed it, so why,...why?

Dear Michael,

This is what ruins your website for me. You clearly are biased, it is obvious to many, and what's worse is that it's essentially over how much Hasselblad is charging!

So, if you want to keep the integrity of your forum, unbiased as it should be, then cut it out and be honest with yourself: you expected the royal treatment from Hasselblad - free or discounted upgrades, etc... and Phase gave it to you instead and now you bitch and complain that you did not get it from Hasselblad. You paint Hasselblad in a negative light every chance you get.

I wouldn't care to say this to anyone else, but someone has to tell you what I am saying: your bias really turns some people off—it is not like you—meaning your other articles have a level of honesty I appreciate, except when it comes to Hasselblad.

You’ve worked hard to create a great website, don’t ruin it—and that’s not just my opinion. But how you run your forum is up to you, I'm only saying this in the hopes you could improve.

If you continue to be angry over cost, cloaked in the notion that you are “telling it like it is,” then people will move to other forums, like Nick’s or elsewhere, where they get an unbiased perspective.

You’re a big boy; I think you can take the reality in this entire post. Time to get a grip and move on. Let it go.

Kind regards,
Derek Jecxz
www.jecxz.com

The issue you raise above is a fair one, but it is totally out of line to assert that Hasselblad acted out of "desperation" or was running a "fire sale". You know the import of those words, and I would just add that (i) you do not know what Hasselblad's sales, cash flow and recovery of R&D costs look like, (ii) Hasselblad's introduction of new products appears to reflect a confidence about the future, not a sense of desperation, and (iii) maybe Hasselblad has actually listened to all of the complaints on this board over the years about the exorbitant cost of MFDBs compared to high MP offerings from Canon, Nikon and now Sony and concluded that Hasselblad had to and COULD do something to narrow that price gap. To be candid, if it had been Phase rather than Hasselblad that cut prices so dramatically, they would probably have received the LL Good Guy Award for 2008 and nobody would have been questioning their motives.
Lost in all of this is that Hasselblad is uniquely positioned to dramatically cut prices because it is the only medium format digital player that is an integrated manufacturer of the cameras and the backs. The prices charged for Phase/Mamiya cameras and lenses have to provide a profit to two companies. Sinar's Hy6 has to provide a profit to F&H and Sinar. Same with Leaf's AFI. In fact, with the new AFI 10 type camera that Sinar will sell, there are three companies with a hand in the till demanding a piece of the action.

Michael,

To further hcubell's point, what you probably don't want to acknowledge is that while Hasselblad has all the R&D costs of body / viewfinder / firmware / battery / integration design / testing / trouble shooting / engineering costs / software / etc..., they don't make all the profits when you buy a different company's back. This is a straight loss for them.

Hasselblad finally said enough, they're spending the most while they're supporting all the others, keeping to open standards they don't profit from - they woke up and shut the free ride down.

Had they not, reality is, they'd probably not have any new products, or worse, they'd be out of business and we'd all be screwed.

But you just complain when it all boils down to you wanting a discount or free ride. All this costs a great deal of money to develop--they deserve to make the most profit from it.

I know this makes sense to you, I just hope you open your eyes to it finally.

Derek

You have exactly said what I meant to say only much clearer

hasselblad has made some decisions in the last couple of years that have made some people (even some owners) pretty upset, by closing their system they have put themselves up against all other MF companies...maybe they were just a couple of years ahead and smelled the end early and made their drastic decision based on how they thought it would all turn out.....

i don't think anyone is really upset with a healthy price competition, free markets drive prices down which in turn should be great for the consumer....

BUT slashing prices to corner the market or simply drive the competition into the ground only means good news in the short run.....hasselblads price drop either means they are desperate or they (and really all the others) have completely overcharged for their product...either way this is NOT good for the market in the long run....

of course price is a major buying factor, but it is not the only one and if i was buying right now, i would still not go with hasselblad and in the big picture (a complete kit) 2, 3 or even 4000$ more or less would not make a difference to me in deciding which camera i will work with every day for the next couple of years.....


if price is an issue, wait fo rthe 5Dii

Dear Howard,

I wanted actually to keep out of this discussion, but am forced in it by your remarks below. It is a little more complicated than presented here. Many other factors do have an influence on price. You don't have any idea about the real costs and margins of such cameras, nor do you have an idea about the costs and margins of digital backs. Jumping that quickly to the conclusion that a Sinar Hy6 camera is automatically more expensive because there are 2 companies involved in its manufacturing and marketing is going a bit fast. In fact you should compare the price of an Hy6 with standard lens with any other brand and you would see that it is not true.

Concerning the AFi 10, it is the same: you don't have any idea or what prices will be, nor what margins those backs will carry. Let's wait and see what the prices for this new 56 MPx digital back will be, being it with the Leaf or with the Sinar name.

Best regards,
Thierry

PS:

- you are certainly right when saying that everybody has to earn some money out of the business.

- there are only 2 (not 3) companies "having a hand in it".

More probably, both of the above are true.

The cameras themselves, and their lenses should be no more expensive to make than the old film MF cameras. Please don't dispute this, the Mamiya and the Contax *are* old MF cameras, and they work decently with digibacks.

Hence the price of the MF digitals was initially due to sensor costs which have now fallen considerably.

Hasselblad are smart, they are passing on the savings to the consumer. In fact it is fascinating to watch how hard they work to obsolete their own product.

Edmund

all I can say is that I am very very happy that hasselblad dropped their prices.
given the chance to start all over again I would probably go with a hasselblad.
Hopefully the other camera manufacturers buck up on this

Imagine if hasselblad came up with a V style H camera! doing everything the Hy6/AFi can do,using their H lenses.

Huh???

Everything digital gets better AND CHEAPER over time.

Until now, MFDBs were the exception.

This can only be GOOD for the market.

And it's about time.

my sentiments exactly
If the MFDB makers can't get it right at a good price, don't worry, sooner or later canon or nikon will foray into that megapixel range, or they will release a new lens/camera system.
The joys of japanese competition.

We are close to the point, if we are not already there, where clients just see digital capture as it's all good and professional. Nobody usually mentions file sizes, or dr or anything like that.

Color, stability of software, lack of artifacts or moire can be mentioned, but I haven't had a conversation with a client about the file size or brand/make of a digital camera in a long long time.

I also think that we are close to the leveling of the brands.

When I bought my Phase backs, (for my style of work and workflow) I believe they were better than anything else and maybe in some areas still have advantage for me, (once again depending on what you shoot), but not having worked a new Hasselblad or Leaf or Sinar I can't say that one is actually better than the other, though from what I hear and read, they all seem pretty close.

The point of all this is I like the idea of buy it, learn it, use it, sell it if something better comes along, or buy the next one just because it has a different look in the file or the glass or the camera operation.

I see nothing about that sceanrio that limits medium format, in fact I think it will grow the format.

I have Nikons, Canons, Leica and Phase and switch between them all the time, sometimes on the same project, sometimes because each one (and the lenses) will give me a different look.

Michael does that, so do many other photographers. Nothing new about owning different systems, even in the same format.

Lower prices makes this easier to do.

JR

Ditto, as ultimately we & the clients will ask, Nikon/Canon gives me comparable pixels/clarity, while MF gives me that illusive look that everyone is talking @, but will my market can really appreciate or even notice it? So why should I pay for it.
Look at the enormous bells & whistles PS CS4 is bringing, with blending of the focus,.... so a simple camera will do.
I say, Halleluah! that I have lived long enough to see the price drop for MF camera & never mind that there is someone proclaiming & holding "The end is near" banner.

This is exactly why I commend 'blad for doing what they've done... that is to begin to simplify the needs of the photographer in respect to support networks via the possibility of actually owning your own backup (through lower pricing). Right now it's all stupidly excessive.

I'm an architect, and I can tell you that the "room full of specialists" has caused considerable problems in the design field when not managed well... namely bloat. Engineers and consultants are very important... and I liken the digital tech/rental house to them... but in the end if one isn't careful, you end up being the "trigger puller" and not much more. The tech sets up the camera, the tech sets up the tether, the tech does this, the tech does that... the tech/rental house has the backup equipment... and on it goes.

.. the art director rules the concept, so what are we photographers left doing? Executing.

Shit, I show up to a wedding with everything (35mm) in at least duplicate... so why should having a backup for the mf shooter be so tied to a "support network".

If lower prices mean that we as photographers are actually able to buy our own backups and run the show with peace of mind, then the "boat anchor" effect of all the peripheral personnel (tech/rental house/VA Reseller, to name a few) needed to run a MF digital shoot will be lightened considerably... especially on location.

Why worry that Mr. xxxxxxx (VA Reseller) is even available on a friday night at the big shoot when your cam goes down, when you can just walk over to the pelican case and pick your backup up and start shooting again?

I dont chime in often, but today I feel compelled to get onto the field from the sidelines. I am neither a big fan nor a hater of Michael. But, I do appreciate his site as one of the few places on the web that provides such a wealth of information through both the LL site and these forums. Many voices are heard about the industry and I think that in the "dark" world of MFD it is very much welcomed. However, It is HIS site, and he can feel free just as the NYT or any other outlet to Call it as he sees it. Period. I hold a similar opinion to him in that I don't like what Hasselblad has done. The truth is that even with the Intro of the HY6 and the "New" Phamiya the H1/2 is still the best overall camera for a Digital back. A Leaf rep some time before Hass "closed" the H system told me that 85% of their backs were made for the H. As much as I like the H Camera (and its not without many faults) I very much Dislike their backs. Granted I haven't seen the newest toys in action, but the package of software (phocus sucks) and back are still fall far behind Phase. So for many people be they leaf, or phase etc, the thought of New lenses and bodies not working with their "H" back is disheartening. But we've gone through all of this before. No, a bigger issue is at hand. Right now MFD reminds me of the Drum Scanner market right before its demise. There was some vibrance in the Drum industry (as there is now in MFD) and then it was gone. I dont think a single drum company exist today. Imacon (Hass) came in with its Virtual Drum (CCD not real PMT drum tech) and huge flat beds invaded the market. They did more for less and where much easier to live with. Were/are they better than a drum. No. Now there are still many very old drum scanners doing their job, but they are breed that nears extinction. To me this Photokina marks the begging of the end. Lets look at the facts: Canon obsoleted its 1dsIII in LESS than a year (anybody want to buy mine?) with a camera that cost a fraction (5d2) and that THEY claim is superior in image quality. Amazing. More amazing the 1ds3 has quality if shot under the right conditions that rivals or exceeds the big boys. Is it better in IQ? No. But guess what: neither were the big flat bed scanners or virtual drums, but they killed the Drum. The 5d2 and the 1ds4 which will most likely come out next year will seal the deal, and HD video will be the icing. I promise. 3 years on from 39mp and the best we have 60mp? Sure frame rates seem great, little better hi iso (surely no match for Canon) and a little better LCD? But that is it? And, they are asking the same or more money. The P30 P21 and 45's of the world lumber on with no improvement or replacement. No innovation. Now talk of RED making the ultimate combo cam next year. I have talked with 4 owners of P45's and not one has a desire to upgrade at the going rate. These are shooters at the top of their fields. None of their demanding clients has asked for bigger files. To me the lower price is a preemptive strike on the next round of Canon and Nikon. If the rumors are even half true of what is in the pipe from Japan then the end is near for MFD unless the do more than drop prices a bit and add MP....

You are correct, Thierry, I do not have any financial data as to the internal costs and profit margins of the MFDB players. However, simple financial logic leads me to the conclusion that the more players in the manufacturing/distribution chain, each of whom is demanding its own nice profit margin, the higher the ultimate selling price to the consumer. No doubt there are other reasons for differences in the ultimate selling price, but vertical integration does tend to reduce prices(assuming no monopoly, and the only player that has ever been even close to a monopoly is Phase One).
The price in the US for a H3DII-39 with a 90 deg. finder and 80mm lens is now $22,000. What is the price of a Hy6 with a 90 degree finder, 80mm lens, with and without the revolving adapter?
In the case of the Sinar version of the Hy6 with the AFI 10 back, are there not three players that will be looking for a profit on the product, F&H, Leaf and Sinar?

Best regards, Howard

Howard,

no, F&H is not part of the Leaf - Sinar partnership: putting any back on the camera will not change the price of the Hy6 camera body. But I understand what you mean: a Hy6 "standalone" (analog) does not cost more than a H camera body standalone, even if F&H is partner for the Hy6 camera body.

As for the Sinar Hy6 - e75 LV, the recommended list price is Euro 24'300.-, without trade-in/upgrade, which usually is about Euro 5'000.-to 7'000.-, depending on the back traded-in, currently.

Best regards,
Thierry

Dealer Support is overrated imho.......do you need support for that 1DS??? if you know your equip like james said 9 times out of 10 you will not need it. if I have a question i'm coming to this forum or somewhere similar on the web to get an answer from real-life users.......if i need something last minute i'm probably calling fotocare or trec or similar rental....places that are used to dealing with such or i'm smart enough to be prepared and i already have a 1ds or 2nd back as backup(or 5dII now)....or god forbid an rz and some 120. duh!

i think what hassy is doing is rad.....they are competing w/ canon....everyone complains about MFDB not being easy, costing too much, voodoo pricing, etc.... hassy is solving all of those problems and people are still complaining about them doing it....the only question mark i really see with them is phocus..

if i actually enjoyed using the h series as a cam i'd be lookin pretty hard at an h3d but ergonomics on that thing are horrendous if you wanna shoot all day long hand holding especially vertical, honestly my preference is still towards a v mount back that I can swap between my rz and 500cm..... that rz and 500 are like my babies.....if leafs new screen is good enough i think i'll be going that route otherwise, used aptus 22 or 54s here i come....for under 10k mind you. i used to think phase cause of stability and C1 but that puny screen in the field...no way.


I think phase is being left in the dust personally, they have not done anything lately to improve usability in terms of physically interacting w/ the back...and c1 4pro is how late??..still waiting on leaf shutter lenses......sinar and leaf both updated lcds' added the ability of rotation, etc...... that is what's going to sell me on a back at this point b/c those canons are just tooooooo easy....make your back as easy and stable to use as those canon's and you will have a ton of sales imho regardless of price.

On the Calumet Photo website, the Sinar Hy6 75R is listed at US $38,000. Say the 90 deg. finder is $1,500. All in, the price is US $ 39,500. The Hasselblad H3DII-39 is US 22,000. That seems to me to be a pretty steep price difference.

And LC v.11.2 is ready for you now..

David

Hassy has been going for a different business model for years now. You can easily buy a H3D from ebay or B&H photo just like you buy a Nikon D3. That doesn't come with VAR on-site support.

What they are doing is great IMHO, they are giving photographers who can handle these aspects themselves an option to just buy a camera at a (slightly more) decent price. If you need support, I am sure that there are companies out there that will be able to help you, just like they are able to help Canan 1ds3 users who might need some help. Now I agree with James, photography isn't rocket science. If you cannot use a back by yourself, then change job or use better designed equipment.

As far as reliability is concerned, the key thing for the busy pro is the ownership of a credible back up or the available of a rental solution.

1. Back up: I would have a very hard time believing anybody telling me that a Canon 1ds3 system is not a credible back up. Everybody has one anyway for those kind of shooting where the backs are too slow,... and the quality gap is small enough that covering one assignement with one would not damage your reputation.

Besides, if you really need a backup of the same make as the original, then a 20.000 US$ H3DII39 will be a lot easier to buy than a 30.000 US$ P45+.

2. Rental: there will be more rental available out there if the piece of gear is cheap(er). Hassy is also making it easier for rental companies to stock these cameras. But in the end, large urban centers will keep having rental available while smaller cities won't. You see more Ferraris in Manhatan than in Mineapolis, and that is the same reason why you will keep seeing more H3D39 in NY than in Minnesota. The Hassy price cut will not change this either way.

All in all, I am not sure to see the problem with the move of Hassy. They are just choosing a different direction away from the dealer model. Mamiya had done it before them, they are just showing the obvious, the same model can be adopted for higher end gear too. IMHO, they still haven't gone far enough in terms of price cut, but they will need one or two more generations to really reach the 15.000 - 20.000 US$ level for the most expensive of their offerings. This is not going to stop here.

I have been saying for years that the only solution for MFDB makers is to sell 4 times more backs at half the price, it would seem that Hassy is now seeing things the same way.

It is obvious that the value of a product is driven by the differentiation with the competition as far as their abilities to perform the tasks needed by the customer. The value of MFDB is less now than 2 years ago because the 1ds3/5dII/A900 can now handle many of the applications only MFDB could handle before. What Hassy is doing here is a logical price reduction following on the lowering of the absolute value of their offering relative to the needs of photographers.

Phaseone one doesn't have to follow. If there is real value in their VAR model, then they will keep their customers. If the VAR model was just seen by their customers as a mandatory expenditures they didn't really care for, then Phaseone will have hard times ahead. The Phaseone products might also be better, which could also justify the added price for those people needing the absolute best.

I believe that Hassy has chosen the right option though, but time will tell.

Anyway, let's re-discuss all this after November 8th. The Nikon moves might influence this discussion more than anything else. A 10.000 US$ 40MP Nikon MX would still make all these backs look very over-priced, even after the Hassy price cuts.

Cheers,
Bernard

And remember that the Sinar has a 33MP array and the Hassie has 39MP. Many folks believe more is better when it comes to MP - not going to start that discussion here BUT it does count in my decision.

In short, both Leaf and Sinar will have a tough time unless they get on the same "cost of ownership" page Hasselblad has now written. My hats off to Hasselblad for taking this major step, regardless of their "motives" as discussed in this thread.

To follow up on Bernard's points, and forgive me if it's been said already, dealers sell next day swap protection / backup for a few thousand bucks / year (you pay shipping).

When I moved to H3DII39 I was offered this option, which was a next day swap service, of an H3DII39 from my dealer.

I think there was a similar plan for a Leaf body/back if I went with Leaf.

When I looked at Phase, I think there was a similar plan too.

For Michael to suggest this exists without payment is out of touch just a bit, probably because he gets so much from Phase or others for free or discounted – as he very well should! That's not my point; I (we) don't have that option! We have to buy a backup body - as said better by others in this thread - or pay for a swap service.

Fotocare in NYC or B&H or Calumet is not going to give me, for free, an H3DII39 to use while Hasselblad repairs mine, no matter their profit margins!

FYI: I said no to the swap service - when you're in Labrador or Hay River, this is not an option.

Lastly, because people have emailed me privately, Nick's website is:

http://www.hasselbladdigitalforum.com/index.php

And this is not said to diminish LL whatsoever. Be well.

Wrong!

With the exception of pre-release test samples, which are always promptly returned, I buy everything I use and test at retail. I receive nothing for free and wouldn't accept it if it was offered.

The only exception is printers, which I accept for long term testing, and which if not taken back by the manufacturer are then donated, usually to a school or student, because manufacturers usually don't want them back.

So please – don't assume.

Michael

>Shit, I show up to a wedding with everything (35mm) in at least duplicate... so why should having a backup for the mf shooter be so tied to a "support network".

>Why worry that Mr. xxxxxxx (VA Reseller) is even available on a friday night at the big shoot when your cam goes down, when you can just walk over to the pelican case and pick your backup up and start shooting again?

>i think what hassy is doing is rad.....they are competing w/ canon....everyone complains about MFDB not being easy, costing too much, voodoo pricing, etc.... hassy is solving all of those problems and people are still complaining about them doing it....the only question mark i really see with them is phocus

=====================

i agree wholeheartedly with the above statements. I think on forums like these people spend too much time analyzing the marketing decisions of these companies, and not enough time thinking about actually getting the job done. I mean, are there real photographers who are actually upset with falling prices on backs?!?!? This is what everyone has been asking for for years. no? Now you can own (not rent) your main camera, now you can own a backup - no need for the bat cave phone number on friday night panic, etc. etc.
OR, maybe the rental prices will come down from astronomical for a day's shoot! That would be nice, huh?
Anyway, I.M.O. loaners and rentals are always scary in the middle of a shoot anyway, because who knows if the loaner is working correctly/chip is clean/firewire port was not messed up during the previous loan/etc.
I belive in owning what you shoot, and these price reductions will provide a real in for a lot of people.

The best way to learn about someone is to talk to them and though I'm sure Michael doesn't want 2000 phone calls, I can tell you from my personal experience, Michael has always been upfront and fair. In fact, though I don't know Michael as a close friend, I do believe he's as honest and straightforward as anyone I've spoken with.

I've disagreed with him in the past, both privately and publicly but that's fine . . that's what keeps life interesting and let's all remember these are just cameras, nothing that gets close to life and death decisions.

Yes, he is opinionated and stands by what he believes, who isn't and for that matter we all don't have to agree. Gawd, what a boring world if we all agreed and quite honestly I appreciate people that take a stance, whether I like it or not.

I do know that when I wrote the first draft on the Phase One ad I shot in Paris, Michael was very clear that it should not be written as a puff peace, be balanced and that it should have a warts and all direction, which I tried to give it, mostly at my expense.

As far as liking or not liking Hasselblad, I love the price cuts, never was wild about closing off the system, but that's from a consumer standpoint.

On the flip side of the coin I wouldn't want to parcel out my business where others could make as much or more profit from my work than I do, so regardless of what Hasselblad did or didn't do, in many ways I can understand it.

JR

For the service you provide with this site and to us and the public, I did assume, and it is retracted. There would be nothing wrong with it either; your honesty in your articles / reviews has always been clear.

But my response was specifically to your statement earlier:

"And who's going to come to your studio and help out when something goes wrong, and where are you going to get a loaner when you have a raft load of expensive models..."

When you need a loaner, do you pay or get it for free? I would understand if you got one for free - my whole point was most can't. And if you have to pay for a loaner, then I misunderstood the context of your phrase "get a loaner" - and again, of course, I take it back.

Kind regards,
Derek

I think the prices will go even lower. Blad is a savvy company. They see the writing on the wall and are acting accordingly. Their products are really solid now. I'm not a fan of a closed system but, if the prices come down some more, you could buy an H3 AND a stand alone Blad back with an adapter plate to fit whatever other odd camera you may have. This way you would have a back up and a back that would fit that RZ or 680 in the closet. This should also kill the stupid high used prices.

Its time for some consolidation in the industry so that they can shake out the inefficiencies in their operations, take advantage of economies of scale, and turn these things into top end commodities. I think Phase will be the odd man out. I say this because they don't have a really attractive camera. The AFD3 is OK, but, and not to make any Sarah Palin reference, its like putting lipstick on a pig and charging a premium for it. Like dropping a 911 engine into a bug, or the somewhat pathetic Porsche 914. The new reality is that the focus is moving away from the Back as a discrete unit and towards the camera/back as a unified unit. Perhaps the AFD4 will be a real high end product that will attract buyers, but there is a serious let down moving from a Hy6 to an AFd3, or, to a lesser degree, from an H3D to an AFD3.

The thing about dealer service is this: If a product needs lots of support and swap outs all the time, I don't want such a product. Be it a car, a camera, an espresso maker, a printer, what ever. If the product is either unreliable, has electronic bugs, is badly engineered, prone to failure etc., it is not a professional tool. I don't think the backs fall into this category.

How many of you have had a failure? I had an old AFd crap out on me. The Leaf back worked just fine. My Phase back was rock solid, never a problem that couldn't have been worked out on my own. So where is this value in a dealer network? I'd rather have two backs at lower prices than a HOTLINE number and the promise of a FEDEX replacement the next day, if a loaner is even available.

I do believe in owning my gear, if its affordable. A value proposition must be made. I would like a Briese Focus 77 and a 220, but I don't think its worth upwards of $35k for two light modifiers. So renting makes sense. Same thing with backs that cost upwards of $40k. Renting makes sense. I am planning on picking up a used Aptus 54 or Sinar 54 when I find one real cheap. Until then, I'll rent the best and the brightest on someone else's dime.

These things should be commodities like the Canons and Nikons.

Competition is good. H3D price drop is good.
I notice Hasselblad accessories and lens price is increasing.

i don't think anyone is complaining that the prices are coming down unless this drives competition out of the market only to raise prices again afterwards....you might have heard of a little store which uses this quite a lot...walmart?

i am not comparing hasselblad to walmart and i really hope (i am assuming) that the others can follow that course...at which point the question remains: did we totally overpay for our backs 12 months ago?

the reality looks different anyway: even if a H3D31 is 15000 or 14000 or 13000....the 5DII is 3000 and shoots HD video as well....yes there is a difference BUT....

canon/nikon will come out with a larger sensor system within a year (i have no proof of that but i am just throwing that out there because everything point in that direction and it just makes sense)...they will keep the price lower then anything hasselblad can even come close to and they will provide the quality DMF has now and all the features and goodies DSLRs have now......that is the real reason hasselblad wants to get a few more customers NOW...