If that case of equipment got stolen from your hotel room tomorrow, and the wife let you use the insurance money for something other than a new kitchen, what would you buy ?

Edmund

AFi system

I now use a 645AFD/III for location work and a RZ67ProII for studio work, the AFi combines those two quality wise.
You get better image quality and WLFs from the RZ and a large part of the portibility of the 645AFD/III.

you should add the second hand camera options. i would probably just get what i have now, h1/2 with a digital back- probably phase.

paul

I know that the two companies have signed a cooperation agreement. Nevertheless, you could have split and made 2 distinct choices with the Leaf and Sinar brands: although the 2 cameras (AFi and Hy6) have basically the same functions, the backs these 2 companies are proposing are quite different.



Thierry

The poll is not clear. The heading asks about the 'body', in which case the Hy6 and AFi should be together.

Then the poll question is about the whole 'system'.

I went with the heading, and voted on my ideal camera body.

Truly I hope sinar Digital Back division could really merge with Leaf, to reduce R&D costs for both hardware and software, therefore make them more competitive in the market. And Rollei hy6 should just be Rollei hy6, call it afi or sinar hy6 just makes confusion, let alone the lost of Rollei's "bling" effect.

What are WLFs?

Dustblue,

The name "Rollei" does not exist/is not permitted for the MF cameras and accessories. If at all, then it is "Rolleiflex", and this ONLY for cameras being sold by F&H.

BUT: the Hy6 is a Jenoptik camera/project, with F&H being the contracted manufacturer for Jenoptik. Therefore named differently, with reasons and rights.

This has been explained a hundred times, in the last 2 years. I don't think there can be any confusion.

Best regards,
Thierry

WLF - Waist Level (View)Finder

Option was not there but I would buy another Contax 645 system, I just love this camera and its associated lenses. I'll probably remain with Leaf for DB unless the the S2 was out at the time.

david

Yea sure, all of us here know it, but remember not all photographers go to forums. Some of them even don't use computers. One of my friend decided to buy leaf afi about one year ago, when he asked for my opinion I recommended sinar hy6 to him. You know what? He didn't know it EXIST at all!

I just give out my suggestion, I hope the hy6 system could share more space in this market because I like it, and sinar too.

So take it easy, Thierry, all photogs here bitching about sinar or leaf of hassie of phase, not for killing them, but making them better.

don't worry, Dustblue, am taking it easy. I simply have to correct, when the brand "Rollei" is named. I know there is no bad intention from you, otherwise I would have reacted more "strongly"!

Kidding!



best regards,
Thierry

Let the dust settle and consider buying used as there is a consistent flow of used digital backs coming to market. These units where the high priced darlings of MF companies now available at huge markdowns.

The software that drives the digital back is just as important as the back itself. My first back was Leaf Aptus and although the file was very nice, the capture software was very unstable and unfinished. Its gotten much better now!

I then moved to Phase was because they offered a complete solution from a solid digital back to a pro software even though I prefer the Leaf life.

Sinar offers perhaps that most versatile solution allowing to you to use it in multiple camera platforms, but they have a weak presence in the US with an invisible rental base.


In addition, a file that one could process in multiple RAW converters(ACR, Raw Developer, etc) with ease is a great option allow for workflow ease and different looks.

I hope Sinar's presence in the US and their rental base will truly improve and change for better...

Thierry,
I know that she changed her name when she got married but her maiden name was just sooo.. much prettier.
Some may call her HY6, some may call her Dolores but to me she will always be Rollei.
Andre

OK, accepted, but only because it's you, Andre!



Best regards,
Thierry

Wow that is great. Thanks Thierry.
Since you are so understanding than maybe.... I will marry into Your Sinar family.
Andre
PS
She will have to change her name again!

Let's see what can be done: may be a special "Andre Napier" edition.

Thierry

P45+, Cambo RS 1000, and lenes more lenes did I mention more lenes? don't forget the Phase 645 and all the lenes that went with that - 28, 35, 75-150 and a 300.

Told wife we need to eat out more any way

don

This is a marketing genious at work!!!! I can see the waiting list for this black beauty.

Now I have to run and make some money for the black paint.
Andre

Thierry how about that black colour, is that happening anytime soon?

From these answers, it looks like Phase is caught in a downwards trend. That is certainly unexpected.

Edmund

I'm very happy with my Sinar Hy6/75LVr combo.

I even like the color scheme!

However I'm looking forward to their 35 mm lens and the wide sensor to fully optimize the lenses.

Andre,if you want a name change for your Sinar/Leaf Hy6/Afi ,all you have to do replace the viewfinders with the Rolleiflex ones.

Cheers,

Willem.

Edmund,

These type of polls are kind of like what you do if you won the lottery.

It's different when it comes time to really write the check.

I do think all of medium format needs to think hard about pricing, but when push comes to shove and it's time to get to work, I'd probably buy just what I've got now, including the Contax, as I know it works, I know the software, I know it's stable and unless anything really remarkable comes out, I wouldn't do anything different.

I do think that Phase hurt themself by being late on V4 pro. Not that you can't work with 3.78, it's still the most stable and usable tethering software I've tried but there is just some good faith lost when something as important as software is late and until now, Phase had that as a major plus.

JR

James,

I agree with you. In fact, I think the results of the poll reflects the perception of quality people now have of the MF solutions presently manufactured. That's exactly what you mean by "What you'd buy if you win the lottery". And perception of quality is exactly what first time buyers use as a criterion. I think Phase would be up there at the front of the poll if their technology were perceived as superior. Sic transit gloria mundi.

Edmund

When you work day in and day out Phase is probably considered the most stable and not just by the owners, who tend to be brand loyal, but just about every rental house will have the same opinion.

I'm not pushing phase, they have thier own set of issues, (let's not talk about lcds) and the functionality of the back menu is fairly non intuitive, especially now in the world on iphones and ipod touches where you visually just punch in what you see.

In fact that little nikon d-90 is much more intuitive than any medium format back I've used, just checking focus is push and watch.

Still, your poll reflects buying a back and camera from the same company and also combines Leaf and Sinar into one brand, which I am not sure is the case. You also list a mythical Nikon MX and until we see it, knows that it tethers, etc. etc., it's just a thought.

It also doesn't take into account if rentals are available or for that matter how we really use these things.

I'd bet, and I don't know the numbers that Leaf and Phase probably still sell as many backs in H-mounts as they do their own new cameras, (I don't have any evidence of this).

But let's be realistic, nearly all of medium format is missing something.

Phase is waiting on leaf shutter lenses, the HY6 needs a 35mm wide angle, Hasselblad has been very slow on their software and still can't get the same functions out of the Kodak sensors that Phase had two years ago.

The new Sinar seems very interesting, but as far as I'm concerned all of these new annoucements from photokina are just vaporware until they actually get on the shelf and get proven in use, so if I was buying today, I'd just do a P30 or a p30+ find some more Contax gear and get on with my life.

Actually, if I was going to add to your poll I would have a spot for would you buy a medium format back again, because I see a lot of people I know put their backs on the for sale section of this forum. Even to take it further I would make it price dependent, price non dependent.

I think that would change the numbers also.

JR

James,

Again I have to agree with what you say. What is more I have a feeling that a lot of people here are going to pick up a 5DII to tryout, and suddenly realize they shot their campaigns with it ... There's nothing more dangerous to an established heavyweight technology than an agile toy -

Edmund

I shoot on a H3D 22 - I like it, but I think I'd love to go mam 645 - just on sheer cost of the lenses. I only own the 80, rent everything else. I like the H3 body more than the Mam, but I want a zoom, a wide, extended and I dont want to take out a second mortgage on my life. so maybe a mam645 w/ a CF22 or even P25. I dotn need 1/800 leaf shutter lenses either presently (if ever??)

I thought the body/lens integration would be significant for me but it isnt. Phocus is a bust, no ISO bump, runs lame, doesnt run on my laptop. Flex is great, solid, but clunky. I use lightroom 95% of the time anyhow.

problem is, ya see, the market on used DBs/leased DBs has had the bottom fall out, so I dont think it'd be possible to trade and move over...kinda sh*tty situation to be in right now

James,

No vaporware with the Sinar Hy6 65: the first demo units are being delivered to distributors, as promised and announced.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quite a tough question, for the removable digital capture, I would go to Sinar system because the same back goes on varies platform, which is indeed flexible. The lens choice, if counted by what is available from 6008/Hy6, to the large format lenses, is without doubt the largest selection ever in photography offering, and also count Alpa 12 as part of system - although that also include Phase and Other back (may be not H3 series back because it is not really that portable).
The S2 is another offering that, to me, it is likely a large size point & shoot type of camera of medium format quality (suppose it deliver what it said to deliver and I have no doubt), it will works the way today medium format digital back users take 1Ds 1/2/3 or 5D as back up, because it is really portable. Especially the S2 is claimed to be weather and moisture proof. I think the digital back offer the choice of adapting the device to a varies technical platform that camera such as typical SLR type camera cannot match - especially when you consider the camera like ArTec, you really do not need to up-grade to higher megapixels back to get giga pixels picture, it allow you to attach lens of lager image circle and all you need to do is to stitch the captures - may be more useful for landscape, architecture and interior, but for studio production, it has its value as well.

Where can you rent one in the United States today?

Where can you buy on in the United States today?

What is the U.S. List price?

Does the new software work with this camera and is it tested and stable? (enough to bet an imporant project on it).

Will the software run tethered on a Mac Pro and a Mac Book Pro without issue?

If so what is the time from capture to full rez preview?

How long to batch process 900 pixel wide jpegs, how long to batch process full resolution tiffs?

Does the software allow for renaming, background processing, dual window editing?

Does the software in dual window work on multiple monitors and pick up the calibration of each monitor?

Are the DNG files compatible with photoshop, lightroom, C1 V4, Raw Developer?

Does the camera LCD work when tethered and if so how long does the image stay on the back?

Are there any reports of jams, file corruption, firewire powered issues?

Does the back read the complete exif info on expsoure, time shot, lens used, aperture and shutter speed?

JR

Yes, I'm surprised by this too, Edmund. Not sure it means anything in the real world, though but it is interesting.

Thierry- I tend to agree with James. Products aren't real until one can take one home. I have no doubts that the 65R is on its way, but I don't think we can call it 'done' just yet.

-Brad

Now that is a nice comprehensive checklist of the usual things a pro who puts his job at stake with the camera/workflow he uses needs to know! I suggest to the Jenoptik people that they print it big and hang it in their testlab for everybody involved to look at, every day, before any new announcement is being made. (I am personally sick of this whole concept where the testing has to be done by the clients - after they have spend their money. At this level of professionalism (and price level) products have to fully work as advertised in the environment where they are supposed to be used. Why do I have to agree to a disclaimer that says "software is supplied 'as is' and no warranties are made that it will work" in order to be able to use very expensive, professional equipment?)

edmund,
i certainly agree that there shouldnt be a vote cameras which dont exist, from which noone ever has seen a frame, no price exists or even noone knows if they even will hit the market. i wouldnt see that the leica and more the nikon are in this respect comparable to the 65back from sinar. the nikon is pure speculation and the leica exist as prototype without specs and prices, so its hard to understand why they are in the poll and even harder how one can seriously vote for them. the spirit from sinar is ready, with all specs and prices and is on the way to the dealers, so its really a different thing.
further i dont see much sense why you have put sinar and leaf together. you havent done this with leica phase ( and you are right that you havent done so ) , they announced partnership too.

That really does say it all!!!!!!!!

Murray

ps Theirry - please pass that on

I was talking to a friend who consults for the steel industry. He says that at these prices, he would be expected to give a performance guarantee.

Kumar

Hmm... looks like a great result for the Leafy Sinars.

Only problem is, most of us aren't starting from a clean sheet of paper. I'm sitting here looking a two AFD/II bodies and a dozen Mamiya lenses... and its my backup camera.

This means that Phase's strategy seems a pretty good one to me.

I'm interested in the s65r, I'd appreciate a thorough report/review of each point James has made.

Cheers

I would add to this - does the camera focus correctly under the conditions I expect to use it ?

Edmund

James,

- I have published the prices, even in US$, shortly before Photokina: the prices in the US should be about the same, here:

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=27940

Contact anyone of SBI's Sales Manager:

SINAR BRON IMAGING REGIONAL SALES MANAGERS

MARK MATHER
mmather@sinarbron.com
CA, ID, NV, OR, WA
(661) 252-9460 (OFFICE)
(661) 252-9470 (FAX)

JIM REED
jreed@sinarbron.com
NJ, LONG ISLAND, NEW YORK CITY
(917) 402-7550 (OFFICE)
(866) 498-4951 (FAX)

MIKE FLUITT
mfluitt@sinarbron.com
AR, KS, LA, MO, OK, TX
(972) 841-2360 (OFFICE)

DAVE MCRITCHIE
dmcritchie@sinarbron.com
CT, DE, MA, MD, ME, NH, PA, RI, UPSTATE NY, VA, VT, WASHINGTON DC, WV
(603) 867-1813 (OFFICE)
(603) 965-0328 (FAX)

- The software works, with this camera, but fact is, that it does not even need it anymore. Remember, this camera system and back produces on-board DNG's and JPG's.

- The software does run tethered, so far without any noticeable problem from what I have seen.

- Speed of capture: I haven't tried it myself, but should be a little slower (possibly 1.5 - 2.0 sec.) than the capture rate (1 fps), depending on the Mac configuration.

- 900 pixel JPGs: as explained, they are produced on-board (un-tethered), with different choices of resolution.

- renaming, background processing, dual window editing: all this has been informed already, and the answer is yes.

- dual window/multiple windows: you can "layout" your Exposure windows/plugins as you wish, on 2 monitors, if needed. As for picking up the calibration: this is one I have to check.

- DNG compatibility: this has been answered already as well. The answer is yes.

- Display: the display shows the captured image until it is in the Mac/PC (yes, there is also a PC version with the very same functions as the Mac version).

- jams, file corruption, firewire powered issues: not yet, as far as I am concerned.

- Does the back read the complete exif info on expsoure, time shot, lens used, aperture and shutter speed: yes, it does so (except for older lenses).

Best regards,
Thierry

For me Hasselblad is the best system on the market right now.
With H3DII-39 I don't have any problems that i have with older model of H system. Amazing lenses with central shutter. HCD 28 is perfect. HC 2.2./100mm is my favorite lens.
HTS 1.5 works very nice. We can use 28,35,50,80,100 also with extension tube. (DAC work- it;s something) 80% of tabletop photography we can do with HTS 1.5.
If you need more adv system - you can buy arca or linhof wiht HR lenses and att digital unit via sliding adapter. You don't need computer if you don't want. It;s simple - att battery grip to adapter and go.
In Phocus 1.1 you have white calibration tool - also you can change setings of your HR lenses directly form Phocus. Ver 1.1 is much much faster that 1.0.1 Guys from Denmark do great job.
Right now you will not have any problems with upgrading firmware, phocus will do everything.
Working tethered to your computer is very very fast.
But somebody tell that is close system... My question is : who care about it? if you get in this system everything what you want Nikon and Canon are close system too. They droping the price too. Is it something wrong?
I think that no. Phase, Leaf , Sinar in my opinion don't have full range of accesories (viewfinders,lenses etc.) and their prices are too high. I don't think that they product are bad. They don't have "complete system".
If you use phase, sinar or leaf, and you are happy with it. Everything is ok. Because it is only your tool. Best tool for me is Hasselblad.

Sorry guys for my english

I could/should have added to this but it was late.

1. Does tethering work up to 30' without a powerered firewire repeater?

2. Does the camera/back self power in tethering, i.e. for problematic mac's with limited firewire power or working pc.

3. Does the software require special graphics cards, i.e. will it work with a macbook pro, 24" I-mac, etc.

4. Does the back have the ability to shoot jpgs or raw/jpegs to the cf card simutaneuously when tethering.

5. Can you set color, tone, (your film look in the software) and then embed that into the back for non tethered shooting, so if you go from tethering to portable you have the same look?

6. Does the software require online activation (God I hate this as I own a lot of computers, including backup, but NEVER run the software more than on two computers at once, so with Phase I own two liscenses).

7. Does the firmware upgrades come from the software or the firmware and if so, if a firmware upgrade has a glitch, i.e. bad green color previews, lines in the frame, half black frames, centerfold, wonky grey balance settings (I've seen em all) can you go back to a previous version so you can keep working?

8. Are the previews in the software smooth and film like or hard and crunchy, think C-1 3.78 for the hard and crunch, think EOS utility for nice and smooth and film like.

9. Does the software retstart quickly. If the firewire cord is pulled out during working is it a 1 minute restart of software or a 10, 15 minute troubleshooting session of restarting computers, drives, etc.

10. Can you rename on the fly?

Now this and the other list is off the top of my head and this comes from experience of having everything happen as above and how to work around it.

The thing is the Phase and C-1 do most of the good things I've mentioned and a few of the bad, (the previews and sometimes some firewire issues), though at least the back powers itself.

I would suggest strongly that your new camera/back has previews still in the back for review or at least hold the last frame until you start shooting again, so the photogrpaher doesn't have to run over to the computer station to check the last frame.

Now the real kicker to all this is the 1ds3 does everything on these two lists and does it for $7,000. I would imagine the 5d2 will also for $3,000, so we are now in no excuse land where any medium format back will have to work as well and as functional as a professional dslr.

This isn't direct to Sinar, this is directed to all medium format. NO more excuses. Make your equipment as usable and reliable as a Canon, make it EASY to buy, make it EASY to rent. If you hae good dealers, reward them, bad dealers . . . drop them. Get this stuff on the shelf and ready to buy. Also paint it black.

No more excuses.

JR

I tested the MF cameras from a well known company at Photokina. I tried imaging a person, with studio flash, and the camera had a serious focus offset. I was given another camera sample, same problem. The rep agreed there was an issue, due to the "firmware". I now understand why a well-known photographer who is often heard from on the forums prefers to use an obsolete camera on the theory that it is well-matured.

Edmund

Now you're getting somewhere, young man. Combine this second list with the first one, and xerox it for every person that calls a medium format dealer, and make them answer every question.

And you are correct -- when that silly little 5D2 starts shipping, the price comparisons are going to get really laughable -- $2500 versus tens of thousands.

My prediction: by next AnnouncaKina, there will be one MF company with a booth there, and it starts with an "H". Not that anyone will still be buying, but they simply have deeper pockets.

How many years have we asked for these answers? Very many. Yet they think that a zillion megapixels is all that matters to anyone.

I just hope there's not a bailout for MF companies. Some companies deserve to go under.

I am a medium format photographer, and hate 35. But when there's money on the table, you go with what works, and what's not going to give you fits.

You are right -- No more excuses.

I would take this one step further and print this list and on the bottom add a clause:

I (value added dealer) to hearby promise that of all the things me and my sales guys check off on this list actually work today. I (value added dealer) also heaby promise that any features, functions, hardware, software, firmware, that is promsed in the future will happen as per the manufacturers ship date. I (value added dealer) stand by these claims and if it doesn't happpen, the camera doesn't function as advertised, the next firmware turns everything green, purple, red, centerfolds, or produces half black frames, I (value added dealer) promise to to return the sales price in full.

Let's be realistic. If your $3,000 nikon shot runny green previews, or wouldn't work with a cf card, required a $5,000 desktop to tether, required a new video card to just run the software, or would jam every 200 frames requiring removal of the battery, you would return it.

Your right, we have been asking for much of this forever and honestly it's not because most of us buy these things for fun, or just to be cool looking. We buy them for work and whether your shooting a $500 portrait or a $285,000 advertising campaing, both hold equal importantce to the end user.

Now I would like to see annoucekina just go away because it makes to sense to me to annouce stuff that isn't selling the day you annouce it, or at least selling the next week. Good God, the makers have two years to get ready. That's a long time to plan for the big dance.

Theirry, you seem to be the defender of truth justice and everything Sinar and you answered most of my first questions, but the real question I have is when can you buy it? Saying dealers are getting demos means nothing. I would never demo a camera I couldn't buy on the day, period.

JR

Photokina is good for many things, really. One MF brand was kind enough to hand out price lists with both dealer prices and end user prices on it. When you buy a full system (meaning body, DB, viewfinder) the "value" added by the dealer is 45%. Lense they want to push (meaning common types) have an "added value" of 17%-20%, while other lenses (the ones a serious photog wants to have) have an "added value" of 25%. On the backs without a body there is an "added value" of 45%, while the cheapest model (the one to get starters into the system) has an "added value" of 33%. Dealers can get a discount on full systems and backs, not on lenses. When a dealer sells you the "added value" of extended warranty he gets 50% of the deal. For all these "added values" I would expect a dealer to run errands for me. In reality I have NEVER needed any dealer support other than a standard warranty repair for which he had to take in my equipment and send it on to the factory. Usually the dealer was even reluctant to do that for me. I do not need a spoken manual from my dealer (I can read) and I do not need a cup of coffee, since coffee makes me shake. Most of the time when I want to buy something I just call my dealer and have it send to me. All he has to do is moving boxes (not the ones on his shelves, but the ones he orders after I have called to buy something.)

I would strongly suggest to Leaf, Sinar, Hasselblad and PhaseOne to offer two options to buy their stuff: 1. from a dealer, with added value, or 2. directly from the factory with no personal support on user level. Buyers would just have to send in for warranty repairs themselves and download manuals and firmware updates on their own. I often buy from an online computer shop that has it very clearly in their rules: "we can carry such low prices because we do not offer any support, other than factory warranty". For me this has worked very well. I've had a few warranty issues with them and they handled it just great. But I never called them to ask how to use the stuff I bought from them.

Amen, Ph.D. Edmund Ronald!

You must be taken very seriously, when spending your time to find a drink and afterwards complaining and criticizing that there was no beer offered, only coffee!



Thierry

Thierry, I was very careful here, I didn't name the product. Do you really want me to name it ? There were witnesses.
I can understand that MF bodies have teething problems. The thing is, by the time they are almost solved, the successor is already announced. James is very smart, he shoots with his zombie living-dead Contax which cannot fall sick anymore because it is mummified and embalmed. The only way to kill a Contax is, I guess, an axe.

Edmund

PS - if you had found me a decent drink, as promised on this forum, I wouldn't have gone to test cameras. I would have been a happy drunk.

Edmund,

I am WELL AWARE, that you didn't name it, and HOW CAREFUL you have been.

Again, AMEN to all you say!

As for the drink, I do not want to sound rude or not polite, and leave it to your judgment.

Best regards,
Thierry