Got this link from other forum

http://www.juzaphoto.com/eng/articles/leic...iew_samples.htm

Mark

Noise starts after iso 320 & that is the challenge with CCD chips.

I just don't understand why these companies keep using CCD's? I guess that will be the next step in MF, whoever does it with CMOS is going to win this game.

It's a "Nullserie"-camera build months ago and not usable beyond base-ISO. The M9 is usable up to 1000-1250ASA, the S2 will behave similar.

Full-frame CCDs are crucial for max. IQ

EXIF shows capture date is two days ago.

I agree with Georg. This ISO test was perhaps a little premature. We'll have to wait and see what happens when the latest firmware is being used in this kind of test.

Ah, sorry, didn't notice that. The images were post-processed with Adobe Camera RAW and Photoshop CS4. Perhaps C1 or Lightroom might do a better higher ISO conversion.

Threadjack: It was my understanding that ACR and Lightroom use the same raw processing engine. Is this not correct? (C1 of course is a different thing entirely not coming from Adobe.)

It might be a current firmware... but maybe not. We simply don't know.
As to ACR vs. LR it's the same engine. I don't know if LR provides smarter NR than ACR. The settings in the two full rez JPGs are set to zero for LumNR and ColNR.
The red chanel is clipped intensely... normal problem with ACR/LR...

Well what you see there is what you get. Perhaps a little better. However there won't be a C1 conversion... there won't be C1 for any S2 owners. They can only hope for a very good Lightroom 3 support around spring next year until then they are stuck with L2 and that quality. Well then again, Leica delayed the S2. Looking at ISO 640 it is quite good that they did.

Christopher,

With all my respect, I do not agree here: this image at ISO 640 is NOT good, if you meant to say that.

I have published a test taken by myself with the Sinarback eMotion 75 LV 1 1/2 years ago, shot at ISO 800. The difference is amazing, in respect to noise and general image quality, BUT also in respect of the light conditions (DR):

the file info taken at ISO 320 with the S2 shows that it was taken at f 13 at a 1/125th, which would mean that the ISO 640 image (provided that all being equal) was taken at f 13 / 1/250th, respectively about f 16 / 1/250th at ISO 800: that is a huge light difference of what I had shown and posted 1 1/2 years ago (see link below) in an image taken at f 5.6 / 1/40th at ISO 800, resp. f 16 / 1/10th at ISO 800). There is about 4 2/3 f-stop difference here, in terms of quantity of light available when the images were taken (4 2/3 less light for the image taken with the e75 33 MPx back).

here:

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.p...ghlight=iso+800

Therefore I am not really impressed with the shown quality of these images taken with flash light, without wishing to speculate on the firmware of this S2 camera: the image quality at ISO 640, respectively even at ISO 320, is simply not good, in respect to noise.

Best regards,
Thierry

It's the same generation that was used by Mr. Reichmann and Mr. Farkas and they weren't allowed to go beyond ISO160.

ISO640 in this sample looks horrible, it's propably just ISO160 +2EV to simulate ISO640 due to the early firmware/hardware!? We should not expect any miracles, it's a 6µm-CCD-system just with microlenses and therefore higher sensitivity (80-1250 instead of 50-800) and ISO800 is quite usable (and definitely not worse than 1600ASA with any CMOS-camera) with those backs (P40+/P65+/H3D-50).

The S2 firmware is now final. There are cameras available for use at a studio in New York this week, and people are invited to come in, bring a CF card, take shots, and then take these home.

My recommendation is to use Adobe's LR3 Beta, which has a completely different processing engine that CR or Lr2.

Let's not confuse things with premature firmware and non-optimum processing.

I spoke with Leica at the NY show yesterday. Their biggest concern is being able to build enough of them, and that's why they have put the brakes on, so that they can reengineer their production line, and thus the delay of a couple of months.

Having seen the way that Leica builds things I can appreciate this issue, and though I'm as eager to test out a production S2 system as anyone, I'm waiting patiently. Building an entirely new camera and lens system from scratch is an incredible undertaking, and then also designing and building the manufacturing capability (this is not an OEM venture) is also a huge job.

Michael

Shouldn't that mean the NDA's have expired? One way or another we should see lots more samples posted soon.

With all due respect, does anyone here think that, even if it's not final firmware, that the final usable ASA is going to change much, beyond these samples? In the end, aren't we talking about a $33,000 camera that will have a max usable ASA of probably 400 or 640?

I just wonder if we're bumping up against the end, with CCD, in terms of what will sell. This week, we're seeing the intro of the 1D4 Canon, with a marketed ASA of 102,000 (one hundred and two thousand). Say that out loud: One hundred and two thousand. Yes, it'll be noisy as hell, but can't you just imagine that, soon, that CMOS will render a clean ASA of probably 6400?

It just seems that CMOS keeps expanding, whereas CCD has been stuck in the mud for years.

I think what we're seeing here is is the split between guys that are willing to drag a tripod with them, EVERYwhere they go, versus guys that simply want to go out and shoot pictures, on foot, unencumbered. Carbon fiber or not, it's still dragging around a tripod. All you Lab Coat Guys, who want to examine noise at 200%, I just hope you're willing to carry a tripod with your precious CCD cameras.

I want to stick with MF as much as the next guy, but I'm seeing continued massive advances with Canon and Nikon, and yet, MF seems stuck with tiny, coarse LCDs, (never improved on), and CCDs that seem limited to ASA 400. And let's not even mention the whole video thing...

Imagine what that S2 is going to be worth, second-hand, in about two years, when technology keeps marching along, and the 1ds4 hits the streets. Who's willing to take a bath on that S2? (But I guess with their target market, we're talking about guys that could care less about taking a bath).

I'm just sitting there, shaking my head.

Instead of "shaking your head", what about this "spinning animated GW"?


Thierry

I saw the S2 yesterday in the studio, and took test shots, though only at base ISO (160).
some quick thoughts:

pros:
- the 70mm standard lens is AMAZING - a very special piece of optics. in a completely different class to other MF standards, (maybe with the exception of the Zeiss 80mm for Sinar M) It's so good it shames every other camera/lens maker out there.
- camera body is very nice to handle. good size, good ergonomics.
- shutter is quiet, quieter than 1 series Canons or much quieter than other MF cameras. the weather proofing probably helps seal noise too
- AF worked well, not brilliantly, but well enough in good light. but is just single point.

cons:
- the lens is big, way bigger than it needs be, as it's built to take a central shutter, regardless of whether you want one or not. (plus is weather sealed plus has 8 elements). This rather defeats the compact MF nature of the design, and for every promo image of how small the S2 body is compared to a dSLR, reviewers need to show one of how huge the standard is compared to other MF standards.
- the tether firmware kept crashing. yes its just beta at present, but as we are 12 weeks from launch, its not encouraging.
- Moire was clearly present in some images (same as it would be with any other MF digital, just dont believe Leica have magically solved Moire - they haven't)
- no C1 conversions. Just Lightroom, which is not the same quality, imho. you may prefer Lightroom though.
- single point AF

I think this camera is going to be a hit... although... ~30Mp ff Canons are coming, probably a few months after the S2 launches, and they will be 5+fps, live view, bullet proof, 50 point AF with tracking and video, huge range of lenses that go to f1.2, superb high ISO performance. Oh, and are 1/4 the price.

They should be legally required to also design The Leica S2 Tripod as well, and they should be required to show the tripod whenever they show the camera. (Imagine the price tag of a carbon fiber Leica tripod). (And imagine the look on Hans'/Lars' face when they realize they'd got to carry a tripod, and risk getting a wrinkle in the shoulder area of that starched shirt. But at least the sweater tied around their shoulders will comfort the weight of the tripod).

Because, once you're set free with the 5D2, with the ability to shoot in Available Darkness, it's really really hard to go back to ASA 160.

it really is a good camera for handheld - much more than other MF's.
would have like the standard to be f2.0 rather than f2.5, but still, this is one MF camera that does not need a tripod in normal daylight light.

Try lightroom 3 beta, you will be amazed how usable high iso shots become from ccd sensors. I am now going back through a whole series of photos taken with the Leica M8 on iso 2500 which I thought were not upto print quality. Lightroom 3 Beta has radically changed my position towards these images. Already the bar is raised very high with this Beta release , let's see what is going to happen when Lightroom 3 final comes out, I expect a small revolution in RAW processing.

Jochem

"I think this camera is going to be a hit... although... ~30Mp ff Canons are coming, probably a few months after the S2 launches, and they will be 5+fps, live view, bullet proof, 50 point AF with tracking and video, huge range of lenses that go to f1.2, superb high ISO performance. Oh, and are 1/4 the price."

I think the cropped 1dMkIV is nearly perfect as a tool for fast press-work and sports-photography, but despite all the bells and whistles the "full-frame-DSLRs" suffer some serious problems regarding IQ - even future 30+MP-DSLRs won't resolve much detail in reality beyond 15-20MP (maybe with a 2/135 stopped down in a studio), they can have as many megapixels as they want. The same with all the great zooms, f1.2-lenses, video - they're like a race-car for Le Mans with a huge trunk, satellite-radio and GPS-navigation - fun and essential for some but not for a race in Le Mans... The S2 is not threat to all the fast press-cameras, but they're serious for those who need highest IQ and offers some fundamental advantages over current offerings.

I would be surprised if ISO1250 isn't as good as with the M9 (which is better than any 3200ASA-IQ available).

there is a unacceptable noise at base iso, check the darker parts of the model's hair.
peter

Looking at the samples at screen res, which is where most pro work ends up, these could have been shot with a D200.

I understand the "advanced amateur" market.

I could see using it for handheld fashion, with lights at 160.

I can see pro landscape guys humping one or two of these through the bush.

BUT, I don't see many commercial photogs buying this camera. It doesn't fill a need. Or am I wrong? It doesn't replace two systems. Its not like you could buy an S2 system and dump your MFDB and DSLR. It could replace a back, but a larger sensor is the draw of the newer backs, and there is no cost savings with the S2, so why buy it over a P65? Why replace an Aptus 75 or 54s? The lenses? Commercial guys don't generally make prints or large prints. I have a friend who shoots BIG commercial jobs with a D2x. Everything is so composited now, multiple images, multiple locations, multiple formats, mixed with CGI. Its just overkill and unecessary for commercial work. I know I know, if you are a Leicaphile (I am) and a DSM IV retentive type, you have to have the best or you can't sleep at night knowing that those Leica lenses are out there and you can't use them. Maybe those guys, who seem to inhabit the forums, will spring for it if they have the coin. Most commercial guys won't because it doesn't make sense.

I know Leica brings out the beast in people, like the Shia/Sunni split. I'm not attacking Leica, and I'm not a fan boy. I do love my M8, M6, M4P, and eventually an M9. I'm not trolling. So I'll end with a question that is not meant as some sort of AgitProp:

Of the Adverstising Photographers/Fashion Photographers on this board, who plans to WRITE THE CHECK for this system, not just rent it, but WRITE THE CHECK? And why? I don't mean people who think its cool (I do), but I mean WRITE THE CHECK? Assuming a system with backup is about $65k.

Thanks!

I've said it before, but I'll say it again. No, not buying it and I don't believe Leica's bs reason for delaying the release unless they had planned on making only 10 cameras initially and they got a last minute order from another surgeon and Seal had mentioned he'd like 4. I think this will be a massive failure commercially.

You would think, with its whole "portability" thing, they'd be aiming at the Canon/Nikon market, but as you say, with no high ASA possibilities, you've still got to keep a Canon or Nikon for low light. I ask again, "Who designs a supposedly portable camera from the ground up, and then sticks a CCD in it, when they know full well the ASA limitations?"

And who's going to buy an expensive thing like that to replace MF? What happens when it's out of date in two years? At least with my H2 and P45+ approach, i've still got my H2 bodies and lenses intact, and I just upgrade to a p65+, or competing large back, if the need occurred (which it won't). Even the Hasselblad H3 and above seems frought with take-a-bath risks, when their one-in-all goes out of date.

That S2 Leica reminds me of those fancy Swiss Army knives that have scissors, a loupe, a vibrator, and an espresso maker all built it, but no one piece of it is very competent. Jack of all trades; master of none.

I just wish Phase would stick a SwissArmy into Leaf, and get back to work making a 22MP, Fullish-Frame version of the P21+, with an iPhone LCD. That P21+ is about the best back they ever made for commercial work.

Few photographers buy MF for view camera compatibility, but what is MF now? ¿anything bigger than 24 * 36mm?

I think the S2 is destined to be a rare collector's item for Leica enthusiasts, which will appeal mainly to wealthy amateurs.

How much have Leica put into this, and can they afford a commercial failure?

I hope the M9 & Dlux4 will keep the company afloat.

You obviously have a different model of knife to me, but mine is fantastic. I've sawn thick branches with the saw, cut nails, and vegetation with the scissors, used the knife to trim wild mushrooms, used the tweezers to handle small items, and so on. And far cheaper than those over priced hyped Leatherman style gadgets. End of rant. You may continue with the topic under discussion.

Although I do agree with the rest of your post, this I absolutely disagree: You haven't probably owned an authentic one.



Thierry

Absolutely, Slough, and I am at the source, since Vercingetorix is located in my town.

Thierry

Lighten up, it's a joke.

Signed,

Mr. Leatherman

I was not that serious either!

signed,

Mr. Vercingetorix

I think it will be a hit with the "advanced amateur" types. All of the drawbacks of the S2 are not that big of a deal if you don't shoot for commerce. The new "Age of Reason" brought on by the market doesn't touch these guys. Its all emotion, which is fine. I do think that leica made the switch full tilt to an LVMH type Luxury Goods maker. Which is fine too. They might even stay in business that way.

I bought my neighbors Boxter S with LOW LOW miles for less than the price of an S2 body w/o the Platinum Cobra Penis case and service package. My Dr. neigbor was selling because he always felt second rate because the 911 is a "better" ride. It bugged him for a few years, made him feel "less", incomplete, second rate. He bought a 911. I wonder if he feels whole now? Is he OK with himself now? Sorted that car problem. He is also a Leica afficianado. There is a cross over between the type "A" professions and the need to have the best, be unassailable, beyond criticism. Having the "best" supports this need, and leica makes the "best". Thus Leica will sell LOTS of S2 cams, because, at least in the States, Type A surgeons/investment bankers/dentists/traders/lawyers are rife, and the same need that drives them to suceed in their profession and earn big bucks drives their need to have the "best". Its a nice symbiotic relationship.

I didn't ean any of this as snark, its just how I see it.

Thats cool, but a Leatherman will let you work on a set, and fix a car. A swiss army knife lets play Darwin, or be the hero at picnic when you realize you left the cork screw at home. There is a place for both!

And yes, there is a difference between the Real Deal Swiss version and the Hacho en Chino models!

Why would these people buy a Leica instead of a Hasselblad? ...especially as a proportion of them would be upgrading an existing Hasselblad system.

Why is the best known manufacturer of hand-held mirror-free cameras branching out into mirror "technology" just when some of us are realising that the days of mirrored cameras are numbered?

Agreed. You can't even think of it as marketing to people who'd actually use it to take photographs. The ads for it should be in the Robb Report and Travel and Leisure, instead of PopPhoto. Guaranteed, on the used market, these cameras will set a record for having the lowest Shot Count of any camera made. They'll stay in the original box, on the bedroom shelf, until it's time for vacation.

I know you have wood for view cameras and movements, but my cardio thorasic surgeon neighbor doesn't want to deal all that hassel. These guys are dilitantes, to a degree. They do have high pressure jobs, 70 hours a week. This guy harvests lungs on Life Flight, going to auto accidents for transplant organs, then transplantin them into another living person. So this guy doesn;t have time to learn something new, like movements, which really are only useful with static subjects, and how useful are they? Can you drag your P3 and all the supporting gear on a plane and take a vacation with it? Not a photo safari, but a nice vacation? Take inspired snaps? No, its big and bulky and requires a tripod, and tethering. It also is futsy, clutsy, wire rigged. I know its not, but again, we are dealing with perceptions.

Why not Blad? Why Leica? Because Leica is the "best." The lenses are the "best." The Leica is designed and built like, well, a Leica, or a Panzerkampfwagen V, or a Benz. The H is plastic and stupid looking (not that it is, but we are dealing with perceptions here). The H has some odd non-northern European orgins, maybe. There is the Fuji link. Leica spells
S-E-X. Fuji spells B-L-A-N-D. Hasselblad spells F-U-N-C-T-I-O-N-A-L, like a Ford.

In summery: Blad blew its brand recognition with the H. People see the 500 series and go "ohhhh". They see an H and they say "thats a big camera. Is it plastic?" People see a Leica, even my beat to hell M6, all brass and dents, and say: "wow, that's a cool camera".

I've been working a little on the client side of advertising lately, partnering with ad agencies, well, really only one, but I am providing creative. I've learned a lot about marketing, and I think the S2 will sell well enough. There is a market, the psychology is right, the brand is STRONG, maybe the strongest in photography, the target market has cash on hand, for the most part. I think Leica will do well, probably not with pros, and probably not in rental, but it will sell.

Well the whole sense was "Well then again, Leica delayed the S2. Looking at ISO 640 it is quite good that they did." 640 so far is horrible and so it is GOOD that they DELAYED the camera ;-)

One of the reasons I bought MF was the view camera option, (and I intend to use it with shutter-beams on moving subjects, like vaulters) but I know that most people would never want a view camera - which is why Hasselblad might make an integral camera & back sometime.

I think you can get a laptop and a Sinar f3 into a medium-sized briefcase, but that is irrelevant to this topic

I am glad you think Hasselblads are functional... not just costume jewellery.

My apologies, Christopher, I have misunderstand you, and we agree then.

Best regards,
Thierry

The S2 is nothing but a wet dream. it's sexy... then you wake up, change your undies, pick up a Canon and go to work.

Seriously, any ad photographer not investing every extra penny in marketing and creating new work, whether video or stills, but instead writing a check for a camera that no one has used, may not tether, isn't rentable, and can't be backed up with a second body needs to have his head examined.

No harm done. After rereading I knew that it could be understood wrong, so I just wanted to clarify it.

Come on, an F3, a tripod, a laptop, a back, a few Lacie rugged drives, on vacation? NOT S-E-X. More like a C-O-C-K-B-L-O-C-K to a wealthy man with the wife on a long earned, expensive, vacation. Which camera system fits with this scene: A handsome couple in their late 50's, obviously well taken care of, sitting in the garden restaurant of the Loire valley Chateau where they are staying, they just had a five year vertical tasting of Chateau Laffitte Rothchild, starting with a '67. A fine meal of Froi Gras, some amazing beouf dish they can't pronounce, and its settling well, the light is pretty. The man says to his fetching wife "Honey, I want to remember you like this, at this moment, for the rest of our lives . . ." He reaches into his Hermes Valice and pulls out a tripod, a back, an F3, a laptop, a back adapter, some cables, starts to boot the systems, waits, starts Phocus, waits, starts the live view, waits . . . meanwhile his wife is flirting with the Spanish waiter. Of course, he wouldn't pull out an F3 and all the gear. He reaches into that $7,000 valise and pulls out the Leica S2, its big, its MODERN, its TRADITIONAL. Its clean, masculin design speaks volumes about the man and his exquisite taste. It is a symbol of his success. SNAP. Assured, confident, masculin. Then the Cialis does the rest.

Love it!

+1

Thierry

As usual, Michael is correct. The camera is now in use for the public in NYC and up-to-date images will be posted by many soon. I think that Juza just assumed that they could release out-of-date images yesterday since all others could post images themselves from the NYC show as of yesterday. I doubt they got clearance from Leica.
I have seen about 40 images from the S2 and can only comment on sharpness not ISO performance, as none required high ISO. The lens performance is what one would expect at this price range, perfect.
As Michael stated many years ago, Canon and Nikon may add many pixels, but the limit becomes the lens performance. So Leica decided that they would build great MF lenses and figured they might as well make a camera body too. The body/sensor will be updated as the years go by. The lenses won't have to.

I have been thinking that If I had known that the CFV 39 was coming out I could have saved about £15,000, as I could have used it with my existing Sinar and Hasselblad kit... but when you buy a H3D (or H4D) you get a point-and-shoot adaptor (with auto-focus) that is suitable for the sort of snapshottery you describe above, and when your wife is sunbathing you can put the back on the F3 and take some pictures.

No wonder Leica has a reputation as a piece of jewelry and honestly, I have never met anyone that was impressed or excited by a camera of any type unless they were a photographer. The general public could give a dam. If it makes you feel better about yourself, then fine. But there are too many much more impressive things in life than a camera. And I shoot Leica. Because I used to feel that they had better lenses. But no one but me ever saw that. No one - ever - in 15 years. They could see the difference in 4 x 5 but even that was rare. But Leica, 35mm - never. You know why? Because all anyone (viewers) ever care about is content. Content is all that matters and all that will ever matter.

Leica lenses were wasted on 35mm film... so digital is Leica's opportunity.

haha, that is a good one. Thank you for that.

. . . of your wife being rubbed down by some handsome young buck who moved in after noticing that her husband is dicking with some odd looking crap on a tripod . . .

In all seriousness, Leica has cachet. Leica has BRAND POWER. The S2 will do fine. Blad had it, its fading. The new stuff is all function, no S-E-X. S-E-X sells.

I won't buy one, because I shoot for commerce where such a camera would probably hinder my work, would definitely hinder the ol' bottom line.

You might be right, but are there THAT many of these guys out there to support Leica? Is there that much money you think? I wonder..

In two years, the camera will be dead old. The surgeons and investment bankers, many of which lost their shirt recently, will they think "Time to get a new Leica." or will they think "That heavy ass camera that I never used that much that gave me those noisy ass images and cost as much as a nice car..? fuck it. I'm buying a boat"